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-   -   Take the hit, steal the march - Ovi Maps Navigation should go free NOW (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90863)

slitchfield 30-11-2009 11:26 AM

Take the hit, steal the march - Ovi Maps Navigation should go free NOW
 
The times, they are, as the bard quoth, a changin' - Google Maps Navigation now provides free turn by turn voice instructions on Android-powered phones in the USA, and it's only a matter of time before the licensing restrictions and map rollouts get sorted for real time navigation in many other countries. And all for free. But this still leaves a window of opportunity for Nokia to step in and change this landscape in an even bigger way - right now. And sell a truckload of phones in the process, worldwide. Read on for my thoughts.

Read on in the full article.

UKJeeper 30-11-2009 12:03 PM

Well said. Good idea.

Unregistered 30-11-2009 12:04 PM

Yup why not. As I understand the 6710 navigator already comes with lifetime free navigation. Comes with maps, if not for all, at least for a few high end devices, certainly for the flagship! Stop pussying around n do it now please, tq..

neilhoskins 30-11-2009 12:07 PM

You're right, of course, but it won't happen. They'll just let it wither and die.

joeyfallon 30-11-2009 12:09 PM

Seems logical to me

Unregistered 30-11-2009 12:22 PM

Free maps too
 
If Nokia's idea is to use more open source - i think the head of Symbian was saying any new app should try to use 50% open source/free material to get started on. Then why not start integrating OpenStreetMap into OVI maps or opening up the POI info that nokia already holds. In other words, don't just make OVI maps free but make the info free too? Of course Navteq costs nokia billions of pounds - it would be a major hit - but thats the price of being a services based company i guess...

lookatbowen 30-11-2009 12:27 PM

well said Steve. Nokia should hire you guys for your knowledge and foresight. That is a genius idea. Surprise the enemy before they surprise you.

snoFlake 30-11-2009 12:42 PM

+ Lots
 
Absolutely right Steve, the PR value after their recent trip-ups would almost be worth it alone but and you've nailed it here 1st mover advantage would be with them and rather than being Google's punch bag why not set the agenda themselves?

Saw another article recommending this some time back following Google's announcement, they should open source the whole thing so that they can open out the PoI's etc and have developers spin Apps off it. I know they are moving some way to do this already but within their "transforming into a service provider" framework, unfortunately their resources or expertise seem insufficient for this task and by the time they implement a service we are either bored waiting for it or somebody else has beaten them to it with a better written product or it's just plain shoddy (OVI store).

Whether Nokia are going to have the courage to write down their Navteq investment I don't know but their move to a services company is unraveling a bit because of their inertia - the same problems are bedeviling their OS development. In the middle of it all they seem to have forgotten that they're a phone maker/developer and have lost the playing field defining lead there. The fact they seem to be a bit surprised at the interest in the N900 and yet are content with the N97 as a flagship seems to show how far from the reality of the market place senior leaders in Nokia are.

I hope Nokia management in their ivory towers (rotten foundations mind you) have the breadth of vision to listen to your advice Steve and at least make some advantage out of this and get back in the game. But if they were happy with the state of SF^1 in 2009 I somehow doubt it - do senior management actually use their own products and compare them to other makes??

dougalzene 30-11-2009 12:53 PM

free navigation has long been on my wishlist. speedcams and live traffic data, too? i wouldn't mind occasionally paying for them but free is better!

Unregistered 30-11-2009 01:02 PM

The flaw
 
Functional GPS would need to be a prerequisite on any phone they claim to have this proposed feature. My plan for Nokia would be build phones that work first then worry about features.

Reminds me of Tomtom actually. A market lead withering away due to to forgetting core business and overloading with pointless features.

theshocker 30-11-2009 01:09 PM

This is something I always thought Nokia should've done, even back in the N95 days. But given the recent buzz around Google Maps Navigation, it makes more sense now than it ever did. But knowing Nokia I am not holding my breath (didn't they give away a few PEDESTRIAN navigation licenses after Google Maps Navigation was announced?), and I'd be very surprised (and delighted of course) if they did.

Another problem would be what to do with all the people that already paid for licenses? Give them their money back? I don't think any company, let alone Nokia, would do something like that.

mbrett 30-11-2009 01:11 PM

I agree this would steal the momentum of Google Maps, but Nokia do still have the major advantage for many, in the form of the option to pre-install maps, so that you aren't so reliant on map download.

In my opinion Nokia need to find a middle ground between these free map OTA maps applications and other apps like Tom Tom and Garmin etc, whic are still paid for. The maps application is in midst of a reasonable degree of development with the pretty S60v5 hopefully gettign a new beta release soon. Someone does need to pay the development guy's sallaries.

Rather than looking solely at the cost of the navigation licence maybe we also need to pursuade Nokia to invest in some functionality improvements in the form of improved Search capabilities to at least equal Google Maps and improved POI management and access again to at least equal that of Google Maps.

To be honest the price of Navigation was reduced in the last year, although it would be nice to reduce this further as it's always nice to have money in your pocket rather than someone else's.

For me it's more of a decission of exceed or compete. There are many things in the world where you can get free version or paid for versions and normally the paid for versions out-perform the free versions. Do users want an app that competes with Google Maps or Tom Tom, or do we want a middle ground with added paid for functionality which enables it to compete with Tom Tom and similar.

I'm happy to pay for things like Speed Camera warning and Traffic and speed limit nifo as long as it's accurate and ideally as real time as possible.

eluxzen 30-11-2009 01:58 PM

Ovi Maps free navigation or lost
 
I agree with the points in this article. In my opinion Nokia has 1 choice or no-choice so to say: get Ovi Maps free as soon as possible or get lost in the competition. See how TomTom and Garmin were hit on the the stock exchanges when Google only announced their intention for step-by-step navigation on Android!

And now this feature is only available on MotoDroid or what it's called. Everyone knows: this gonna get offered world wide and for every Android phone. So Nokia should get a step ahead of Google and start offering it right away. The other non-option is to wait and sell as many Ovi Maps licences as possible only to get beaten out of competition as soon as Google comes to town. Besides Google Navigation on Android phones there is the thread of Google Navigation on other phones!

Even I use Google Maps now on my Nokia 5800 to show me the route I have to take. My co-driver will navigate through it. Or I use it to plot the last route stept. Ovi Maps works better but I'm not gonna pay 58 a year to get some directions! Within 3 years I could have bought a TomTom for that price and have a bigger screen to see the route on. The only licence I bought is walking routes, as I walk a lot. But that was prices about 8 a year.

Hope Nokia gets free too, or I wait for Google Navigation to come to town!

djmuzi 30-11-2009 02:08 PM

For N-Series Devices it MUST be free! I payed 400 EUR for my N86. For this price the phone should include full licence.

But for now I chosed Nokia because of the free offline maps, Navigation would be nice thing and I would consider buying another Nokia in the future :) because for the future I tend to Android....

Unregistered 30-11-2009 03:08 PM

Steve, Nokia has been doing this quite a while already, with devices which comes with the lifetime navi. Newest one, for example: 5800 NAVI and cost? Little over 300! That is a bargain! Considering that you have to pay almost double to get a new android device, which NOW doesn't even have free NAVI.

Pointless rant Steve from you ;)

micdabe 30-11-2009 03:13 PM

N97?
 
On my N97 Ovi Maps navigation and every other navigation software is totally unuseful due to the worst GPS reception seen in dozen of phones I owned. To me Ovi Maps worth nothing even it wil be free. The GPS reception on N97 make the phone itself worth NOTHING. How did they do that? It's simply UNBELIEVABLE! They should set the phone itself free, not only the maps!

Unregistered 30-11-2009 03:34 PM

For me a dedicated satnav cannot be replaced by a compromised phone sat-nav, and the dedicated devices I use all have free navigation once I have purchased the device. Nokia maps as it stands cannot compete with the free dedicated nav, so it is not even a consideration for me when purchasing a phone.

As for google mobile maps and their ridiculous tile downloads, they are even worse. Surely if my phone is capable of caching the tile, then it should be allowed to.

Unregistered 30-11-2009 03:34 PM

Note that in the US, Amazon is offering the 5800 with a lifetime subscription to Ovi Maps navigation functionality ...
http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-Navigati...6&sr=8-2-fkmr0

With the rebate, $199. I suspect this is partly due to remain competitive with Google's offerings.

Umberto 30-11-2009 04:31 PM

Steve

google maps system do not store the maps on the memory card so you have to download them during the use. This system can be great if you have a flat data plan. But this means, for examples, that in other countries you can not use it. Furthermore, in zones where you have not a fast data trasmission (in Italy we have a lot of zones where are not 3G coverage), the map could be charged too slowly. For this reason I prefer the system adopted by OVIMaps instead. The idea to pay for limited periods of time is very good. For example, the last summer I paid 8 Euros for a months of Europe navigation and I have been to Greece (my Garmin 2008 map has only the zone of Athens so it was unuseful for my purposes). At the end of the day, I save a lot of money in terms of fuel avoiding the bad roads and, why not, the not necessary toll roads. For sure, more than the 8 Euros that I gave to Nokia service.
Anyway, I think that a further reduction of the price could be beneficial for this excellent product.

Just another thing to conclude referring to micdabe opinion. My N97 GPS works great with a lot of softwares that I use (OVI Maps, Garmin, Sports Tracker, google maps). The signal is stable also during bad weather days and in the middle of big cities. Both the positioning and the sensitivity are from good to very good. For this reason, if you have problems with your N97 GPS, I suggest to check a Nokia care point. Another suggestion is to try and unistall Accuweather and, of course, an upgrade to fw 20.

slitchfield 30-11-2009 04:45 PM

Yes, N97 GPS isn't the best, but it's useable with:

1) new design antenna (with shield)
2) Maps booster add-on (adds Wi-Fi positioning, can work VERY well in towns)
3) a little patience 8-)

st1100flyer 30-11-2009 04:48 PM

Ovi Maps
 
My 5800XM came with Ovi Maps preloaded with a 3 month trial and I was very impressed with it. In use it was comparable with my dedicated Garmin satnav. However when the trial expired they wanted 99.99p for a 1yr licence which covered Walk/Drive Europe. Although impressed with Ovi Maps I thought it was totally unrealistic of Nokia to price a 1yr subscription at that level when dedicated satnavs are available for a lot less than that.
I have just checked the Ovi Maps Site and the current price for a 1yr subscription is 52.99p for Drive Europe. The Walk facility seems to have disappeared.

I agree with you totally that Nokia would benefit greatly in phone sales if they offered satnav free. There is, I believe, a 5800 version that comes bundled with fully working satnav so Nokia must be thinking along those lines. I think that most people, when looking for a new (high end) phone look at the phone as a complete package and the inclusion of fully working satnav without having to pay for future licences would greatly influence buyers - I know in the future it would influence me.

rvirga 30-11-2009 05:17 PM

The always-connected model of Google Maps works very well for the U.S. and Canada, where you can travel over an area the size of western Europe while staying within your country, and, what's most important here, within your own carrier's coverage area. It doesn't work very well for Europe, where each tiny nation has its own set of carriers, and data roaming charges are prohibitively high. Nokia has no reason to fear Google Maps Navigation.

slitchfield 30-11-2009 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvirga (Post 449273)
The always-connected model of Google Maps works very well for the U.S. and Canada, where you can travel over an area the size of western Europe while staying within your country, and, what's most important here, within your own carrier's coverage area. It doesn't work very well for Europe, where each tiny nation has its own set of carriers, and data roaming charges are prohibitively high. Nokia has no reason to fear Google Maps Navigation.

Disagree. Google Maps uses negligible data when used with simple maps (i.e. stay away from satellite photos) - on a cross-UK journey recently I only got through about 600K. Even on roaming rates, that's only a matter of pence and not pounds.

Unregistered 30-11-2009 08:01 PM

Was that just driving Steve with Google tracking you? Because yes that does use very little data, navigation however will use more (how much more I don't know as I've not used Google Nav yet) when using the full functionality.

What about driving in and around places with little to no coverage? Google Nav can't really help you if it can't talk to its servers now can it?

I agree with previous comments that a) many Nokia Devices already have the functionality for free and that b) N Series devices should come with the same type of licence.

Unregistered 30-11-2009 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvirga (Post 449273)
The always-connected model of Google Maps works very well for the U.S. and Canada, where you can travel over an area the size of western Europe while staying within your country, and, what's most important here, within your own carrier's coverage area. It doesn't work very well for Europe, where each tiny nation has its own set of carriers, and data roaming charges are prohibitively high. Nokia has no reason to fear Google Maps Navigation.

I don't know where you live, but google maps was shyte in Utah, Nevada, Sierra Nevada and the California central valley where I was frequently out of cell range. That rarely happens in a euro country where the population is concentrated. Roaming is not expensive where it is pre-arranged, and many people stay within their own nation 95% of the time. However, pre-loaded maps would not allow google to track a users movements so easily, so Nokia wins again. Google maps is shyte where-ever it is used.

rvirga 30-11-2009 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slitchfield (Post 449280)
Disagree. Google Maps uses negligible data when used with simple maps (i.e. stay away from satellite photos) - on a cross-UK journey recently I only got through about 600K. Even on roaming rates, that's only a matter of pence and not pounds.

TIM Italy's roaming rates for the EU area are €0,00781/KB. That cross-UK journey would have costed me €4.686, or 4.2763. It's a matter of pounds, not pence.

Umberto 30-11-2009 09:49 PM

Still on N97 GPS
 
Steve

I am really surprised in reading your words.

My N97 GPS worked from the day 1 (fw 11) also inside my car with shielded windows. After the upgrade to fw20 I noticed a relevant improvement of both precision and sensitivity and now it is very very good. I used it regularly without AGPS and things like mapbooster you mentioned. Comparing this with the GPS unit of the 5800XM of my brother, I think that my N97 has similar performances or even better. For sure it is much better than the GPS of my old N95 that, anyway, I used a lot in the last two years.

Are you really sure that after the first bad units (that I think you have) nothing has changed. I found a nonsense if, at present, N97 and N97 mini had different GPS chips and antenna.

RollerSMB 30-11-2009 11:16 PM

Android
 
Honestly, I would be surprised if sat nav in google maps doesn't make it to symbian/winmo. Google's business model has always been to reach the largest audience. Their products are the services they provide, android would not be making them anywhere near as much money as their core business, advertising. It's in their interest to reach as many people as possible, and free sat nav would convince millions of symbian/winmo phone owners to run google maps more often, and hence give Google more targeted advertising data. I'm guessing that making nokia maps nav free would be pretty futile, the next week, google would fast track their plans to make sat nav on the symbian google maps client.

Arthur 30-11-2009 11:39 PM

What's being forgotten in this conversation is the general robustness and usefulness of the mapping application and I'm sorry but Google Maps walks all over 'Ovi Maps', errr... 'Maps on Ovi' or whatever it's called this week.

Google wins.

seki 01-12-2009 12:09 AM

pro and cons
 
Google Maps: requires a connection (bad if you pay a lot for data)
Ovi Maps: doesn't require a connection (provided you have preloaded the maps)

Google: Indoors/built up areas - still very accurate.
Ovi: requires a third party add-on to gain any accuracy, not well supported yet.

Google: Has pretty good world wide coverage.
Ovi: Has fairly good world wide coverage, but NOT in Japan (where I'm forced to use MGMaps or some other variant)

Google: Widely available for pretty much ANY device.
Ovi: restricted to Nokia (correct me if I'm wrong)

The above applies just to Maps .. not navigation.
Navigation requires accuracy in positioning I'd stick to Google maps, until Nokia include cell positioning as part of the Assisted-GPS. What needs to happen is with A-GPS on .. it starts with that then if it gets a GPS lock that helps the Assistant (sort of turn it on it head)


I've also not had a problem with the N97's GPS. It works well even at high speed!

Dead1nside 01-12-2009 12:36 AM

It's certainly the way to go, unfortunately they're still trying to make this subscription model work.

Unregistered 01-12-2009 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur (Post 449323)
What's being forgotten in this conversation is the general robustness and usefulness of the mapping application and I'm sorry but Google Maps walks all over 'Ovi Maps', errr... 'Maps on Ovi' or whatever it's called this week.

Google wins.

I don't think it has been forgotten, I think it's more that it's just not true. With Google maps if you can't get a connection, or can only get a basic connection then you can't see your map or you have to wait for it and try and navigate across a blank screen until the map appears. That's just not good enough and it's a billion miles away from robust and useful. Google can never win while it's like that, and it will always be like that as long as google need to collect data about where people travel. I've tried to use Google maps and dumped it.

Unregistered 01-12-2009 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seki (Post 449326)
Google Maps: requires a connection (bad if you pay a lot for data)
Ovi Maps: doesn't require a connection (provided you have preloaded the maps)

Google: Indoors/built up areas - still very accurate.
Ovi: requires a third party add-on to gain any accuracy, not well supported yet.

Google: Has pretty good world wide coverage.
Ovi: Has fairly good world wide coverage, but NOT in Japan (where I'm forced to use MGMaps or some other variant)

Google: Widely available for pretty much ANY device.
Ovi: restricted to Nokia (correct me if I'm wrong)

The above applies just to Maps .. not navigation.
Navigation requires accuracy in positioning I'd stick to Google maps, until Nokia include cell positioning as part of the Assisted-GPS. What needs to happen is with A-GPS on .. it starts with that then if it gets a GPS lock that helps the Assistant (sort of turn it on it head)


I've also not had a problem with the N97's GPS. It works well even at high speed!

All very correct, apart from accuracy. I find Nokia maps is extremely accurate, and within the width of a road. I am not sure how a third party add on can be much moer useful.

However, I would still much rather use a cheaper, better dedicatged sat-nav. I could uninstall all the maps apps from my phone and not miss them.

malerocks 01-12-2009 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st1100flyer (Post 449269)
I have just checked the Ovi Maps Site and the current price for a 1yr subscription is 52.99p for Drive Europe. The Walk facility seems to have disappeared.

The walk facility is now offered free on all devices. Just download the latest version of Ovi apps. Drive, as you know, is chargeable.

Unregistered 01-12-2009 08:38 AM

Never happen. Google is giving maps away for free, Apple is hiring a mapping engineer, and Nokia will sit and think about it while everyone else moves forward. Even if they did it, Google and Apple have shown how to deliver a better user experience with existing technology. They've both proved that not having the latest and greatest hardware but better software is what consumers want. Nokia is lost somewhere in between. Offering not the best hardware + along with seeming terrible software = terrible user experience.

Here's to hoping that Nokia does the right thing here for once.

spaceprobe 01-12-2009 09:38 AM

Since my sat nav was feeling its age I decided to subscribe to Ovi maps on my new 5800. Its very convenient to have sat nav at hand but I am not sure it is worth paying for. Even on the fast route settings you are routed the long way round. I find the only way to use it is to plan your route on line (cant get it to work in Vista by the Way), adjust it to the best route and sync. The best example of poor route planning is the following: My home on the outskirts of Brighton to Hammersmith in London, on a Friday at 7pm. It took me into Brighton, back out again, into South London via Croydon, South circular to Sheppards bush and then onto Hammersmith, a journey time of over 3 hours. The correct route should have been out of Brighton via one of the outer roads, M25 to M4 and straight into Hammersmith journey time 1hour 40. I will not be renewing my subscription.

Unregistered 01-12-2009 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malerocks (Post 449369)
The walk facility is now offered free on all devices. Just download the latest version of Ovi apps. Drive, as you know, is chargeable.

Incorrect.

Walk Navigation is now called City Explorer (about 10 Euros for life, global)
Devices that ship with Maps 3.0 have this included (N86, 6730 etc etc) devices that upgrade will need to purchase this license unless they've purchased a Walk/Drive license in which case the walk side of it will continue until the license expires.

Unregistered 01-12-2009 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djmuzi
For N-Series Devices it MUST be free! I payed 400 EUR for my N86. For this price the phone should include full licence.

What about E-devices? I paid over 700 for an E90 ;)

Danny C 01-12-2009 04:47 PM

I paid 45 for 3yrs for my nokia maps when it came out. That price I thought wasreasonable but what they are chargiong now is a joke. I wont be renewing it unless they put the price back to 45 for 3 yrs or obviously free. I had an n95 8gb when I got maps and still using it now on my n97 (with a nokia LD-4W bluetooth GPS as the n97 GPS sucks so bad).

P.S. I just leave my shutter open ALL the time so it doesn't scratch the lense. Just hold down the camera button to start it up.

RogerPodacter 01-12-2009 08:00 PM

i've been saying ovi maps should be free on EVERY nokia phone for a long time now. just think of the marketing power that nokia would have if they offered free ovi maps just by being a nokia phone user! it is a huge advantage in the industry for nokia to use their "might" to muscle around everyone else, because frankly the other manufacturers could not compete if nokia did this.


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