All About Symbian - Nokia (S60) and Sony Ericsson (UIQ) smartphones unwrapped

  #16  
Old 16-07-2009, 03:42 PM
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Profits are irrelevant. Well, not really, but they are in my eyes. Nokia have spent eye watering amounts of money on various things in the last few years, e.g. Navteq, so I won't shed a tear if Nokia say they're short of money. 8-) What matters to ME is how many devices they've shipped and of what types - in the long term, success is, as OPK said, about active users - and Nokia have far more than all its competitors here. I'm just heartened that S60 smartphone sales continue to rise, that Nokia's smartphone market share is rising, and so on.
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  #17  
Old 16-07-2009, 03:54 PM
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My humble notes

1. I guess Nseries sales are not effected by HTC,Palm,WM because they are Eseries competetors and this give Eseries kedos for there high sales (especially E71 and its brothers).

2. Low sales of Nseries isnt only because Apple (i can exclude NAM here),but why you forget Samsung?..and the upcomming Satio may change many things too...and i think Nokia themselves are trying to kill there own Nseries brand by pushing devices into public with beta firmwares,no video accelerator for Ngage & video,no Xenon flash and so on.
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  #18  
Old 16-07-2009, 04:08 PM
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no Xenon flash and so on.
Yes because all N-series competitors have xenon flashes.

Oh, wait.....

  #19  
Old 16-07-2009, 04:42 PM
quagmire quagmire is offline
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I find it interesting that the e-series outsold the n-series. Perhaps people are going to the e-series for the build quality?

@Rafe

Next time you speak with nokia people, could you ask them the future of e and n series? it seems as though the two are converging on many parts, like n-gage, messaging, and with the upcomming e72, the cameras as well. How do they plan on keeping both lines distinct from one another?

I would imagine that given the cost to develop a handset and maintain it with version upgrades, etc...that nokia would look to trim the product portfolio a bit? at least that would make sense, especially with the rehashes like n95/96/85/86. instead of an n79 and n82, just have one T9 candybar n-series, etc.....

thoughts?

  #20  
Old 16-07-2009, 04:45 PM
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Where else can you read comments where one person is predicting the end of Nokia and another is saying that this is great news?

"nokia is the next motorola.. dying a slow death because innovation at Nokia is non-existent"

Seriously? I think people use this (very poor) argument only because the N95 was so innovative at the time and Nokia have not managed to "wow" people since it's release in the same way. Expectation and it's own hype have sullied it's name.

Samsung will have to do a lot more to eclipse Nokia than just release a rash of touchscreen devices with good cameras.
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  #21  
Old 16-07-2009, 04:48 PM
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Quagmire, I think Nokia have managed to chip away a large chunk of Blackberry sales with devices like the E71. Businesses have been embracing the E series, a lot like they did the 6 series.

  #22  
Old 16-07-2009, 08:56 PM
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Navteq

Navteq was expensive, but if in 3-5 years time there are a billion Nokia devices running Ovi Maps 5 with a whole host of other location based services no-one has even thought of it will look like a very good buy.
Nokia knows they are playing catchup but don't underestimate their ability to innovate and re-shape the market.

  #23  
Old 16-07-2009, 09:15 PM
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"This could be the perfect time to buy Nokia" -- Motley Fool

http://www.fool.com/investing/value/...get-nokia.aspx

  #24  
Old 16-07-2009, 10:46 PM
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Nokia

Nokia are losing ground in the top class mobile,as they have not shown an improvement since the n95 but declining,n85 ,n96 an now n86 an n97 have all been mobiles that do meet the true value,why have nokia decide not to join the best camera mobiles nowdays seems really odd ,samsung an the others are showing nokia up an nokia do not seem to be bothered about losing customers,hope we see something more promising from nokia in the 4th quarter of this year or there sales will get worse as people will start buying other makes of mobiles

  #25  
Old 17-07-2009, 12:52 AM
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Another perspective on this at
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/16/nokia_results/

  #26  
Old 17-07-2009, 06:23 AM
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I don't think this is quite as rosy as it's painted here (nor is it the end of Nokia). The economic downturn is not exactly new news. For Nokia to be "cut[ting] its prediction for H2 2009 profitability and market share for 2009" hints at something going not well, especially when several other surveys of market confidence suggest that some elements of the economy are beginning a slow recovery.

I say this with the utmost respect for AAS and all the effort put in, but I do sometimes wonder if the site can stray into being more about what you hope Nokia will do, rather than what they actually do. I remember getting my Nokia 6630 a long time ago (2005) - quite a step up from the 3210 I had at that point. Some aspects of the interface were clunky, but hey - it was quite impressive, so I stuck with it. An N70 and an N95 later and I'm not seeing the improvement, and I'm frankly a bit shocked that N97 reviews are finding much of the same general things (slow interface, week processor, delays when switching between functions) to criticise about the phone as I did four years ago on the 6630. I don't think we'd tolerate that from any other company.

As my N95 gets increasingly sorry looking, and it's battery life seems to become more laughable despite a change in battery I look at what to get next. Assuming the closed nature of the iPhone doesn't appeal, I can pick the N97 or the HTC Hero. One looks incredibly more tempting than the other to me. I wonder how many others across the world are thinking this?

Of course Nokia make their money not just on smartphones, but on the whole market. But if Nokia's name doesn't have the cachet that comes from the leading devices, why will consumers seek out the mid-range phones?

  #27  
Old 17-07-2009, 07:18 AM
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I don't think this is quite as rosy as it's painted here (nor is it the end of Nokia). The economic downturn is not exactly new news. For Nokia to be "cut[ting] its prediction for H2 2009 profitability and market share for 2009" hints at something going not well, especially when several other surveys of market confidence suggest that some elements of the economy are beginning a slow recovery.

?
This is half the point. In an economic downturn it is far more difficult being in the leading position where you have had fantastic sales than coming from zero sales and building up. This is a good result in bad conditions. Of course, all the handset makers that are fairly new to the market don't have the historical success to come down from.

I have chosen this time as the perfect time to start a business, having no history my trade is showing only growth. When times improve things should really take off. I'm pleased I am not comparing my current trading figures to a previous boom.

  #28  
Old 17-07-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
I find it interesting that the e-series outsold the n-series. Perhaps people are going to the e-series for the build quality?

@Rafe

Next time you speak with nokia people, could you ask them the future of e and n series? it seems as though the two are converging on many parts, like n-gage, messaging, and with the upcomming e72, the cameras as well. How do they plan on keeping both lines distinct from one another?

I would imagine that given the cost to develop a handset and maintain it with version upgrades, etc...that nokia would look to trim the product portfolio a bit? at least that would make sense, especially with the rehashes like n95/96/85/86. instead of an n79 and n82, just have one T9 candybar n-series, etc.....

thoughts?
I think you can read the Eseries thing several ways. In all the fuss that's been made about touch, there's not been much recognition that QWERTY equipped devices are also a major trend. To be fair they've been around for while, but your seeing them gain new markets. I think enterprise use of such devices is on the up (more in the mid tier) and consumer usage is up to...

But I also think Nokia have created some very good Eseries devices (as you say quality is factor). The E71 stands out, but the E63 also stands out for price reasons, and the E75 is a good all rounder. There's more to come with the E52, E55 and E72 too.

I've discussed the future of Nseries and Eseries with Nokia several times in the last few years. Basically its the same story as everywhere else in mobile hardware. While there will always be some hardware differences (keyboards), the software and services side of things will become more important. A good example of this is the fact the E75 (and other forthcoming Eseries devices) come with a lifetime subscription to Nokia Messaging (the SIM-free ones anyway), another example is the inclusion of Quickoffice editing capability. I'd expect to see more stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I don't think this is quite as rosy as it's painted here (nor is it the end of Nokia). The economic downturn is not exactly new news. For Nokia to be "cut[ting] its prediction for H2 2009 profitability and market share for 2009" hints at something going not well, especially when several other surveys of market confidence suggest that some elements of the economy are beginning a slow recovery.
I didn't intend to imply everything was rosy, rather that given the economic context the results were generally positive. They were ahead of expectations and the marketshare (especially in smartphone) has improved. Generally positive was meant to imply there were some issues.

I agree the forecast cuts are serious, which is why I mentioned them in the first paragraph, and mentioned there impact on share price. This was followed up in the conference call with the comments on Yen hedging as well as component shortages.

Despite this I do think the result show cause for optimis. The recent downward trend in Nokia's smartphone business has been reversed (thanks mainly to 5800 and E71 it seems), though as noted issues at high end. The improvement in gross margins is also a good indicator, especially set against reduced ASP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I say this with the utmost respect for AAS and all the effort put in, but I do sometimes wonder if the site can stray into being more about what you hope Nokia will do, rather than what they actually do. I remember getting my Nokia 6630 a long time ago (2005) - quite a step up from the 3210 I had at that point. Some aspects of the interface were clunky, but hey - it was quite impressive, so I stuck with it. An N70 and an N95 later and I'm not seeing the improvement, and I'm frankly a bit shocked that N97 reviews are finding much of the same general things (slow interface, week processor, delays when switching between functions) to criticise about the phone as I did four years ago on the 6630. I don't think we'd tolerate that from any other company.
I think you make a reasonable point here (and thank you for doing so, rather than just a throw away you're wrong style comment). This is something we obviously need to be careful about and there's a balance to be struck. A lot of the stuff we talk about has not yet fully matured, so making exact predictions about how things will turn out is hard. It's also hard foreseeing how quickly things role out / get adopted (though I think this is a general thing in tech media).

On the other hand I note that while the N97 has faced criticisms there's a lot more improvements than people give it credit for. The N97 is much faster in general operations than the N95 (e.g. the browser is 2 to 3 times quicker (or more) loading / rendering a page over WiFi). Application are responsive and moving round the UI is generally quick. I'm not saying there's no problems though, but just as with the N95 this will improve with firmware updates (and again this applies to all high end device regardless of manufacturer. I think we are also generally in a good position to make these judgment having a lot more experience with these devices than a lot of people writing about them (by the very nature of the site).

I think in general the N97 has received harsher reviews that it sometime deserves. The same thing happened with the 5800 and that's done well in sales terms. Web media opinion does not always get it right (and of course the best device does not always 'win').

A good comparison is the N86 (same form factor as N95), which really demonstrates the investment Nokia have put into software and services. Steve is going to do an editorial comparing the N96 and N86 on the site next week, talking about this issue. But it is really is a long way ahead of the N95 (though there's a lot of similar feel in it too).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
As my N95 gets increasingly sorry looking, and it's battery life seems to become more laughable despite a change in battery I look at what to get next. Assuming the closed nature of the iPhone doesn't appeal, I can pick the N97 or the HTC Hero. One looks incredibly more tempting than the other to me. I wonder how many others across the world are thinking this?

Of course Nokia make their money not just on smartphones, but on the whole market. But if Nokia's name doesn't have the cachet that comes from the leading devices, why will consumers seek out the mid-range phones?
I've seen a lot of comments along these lines and a lot of it seems to come down to some feeling of 'newness' that the iPhone and Android have. This does not make them good in day to day use, although it does seem to make them alluring to tech lovers / gadget fans. Hmm I'll stop waffling now, but this an interesting topic that deserves more discussion.

I have tried the HTC Hero - very nice device, bit slow at times (but see above about software updates on high devices), and basically a different approach to Nokia. Android is the PDA led approach, versus phone-led. It has its good points (contacts and integration with social), but is weaker in other areas (multimedia). I would choose an N97 because its more versatile (also keyboard), but what is good is there's now a lot more choice at the high end.

Cachet from leading devices - yes that's true, which is why Nokia will fight hard at the high end.
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Last edited by Rafe; 17-07-2009 at 12:59 PM.

  #29  
Old 17-07-2009, 06:05 PM
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http://gigaom.com/2009/07/16/as-its-...ng-with-nokia/

  #30  
Old 17-07-2009, 08:19 PM
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More lazy ignorant blog type stories. "as its stock sinks...." is just a plain lie. Nokia stocks on NYSE are tracking the Dow. They should have looked at the stock price in march (when I bought) compared to now. Nice tidy sum made there thanks.

Then they make the usual error of suggesting Symbian is long in the tooth (compared to unix/linux based rivals!!) and failing to make the S60 distinction. If a company is not the media darling then a company can do nothing right.

The last line asks "any ideas". I suggest dumping the states, a nation where (if we generalise) is not known for its depth and is totally taken in by eye candy and superficial effects, and concentrate on substance.
 

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