malbry wrote:I am not saying MIDP Java is better than OPL or vice versa. Just want to be clear on the merits of each.
Thanks for clarification Malcolm! I suspected it couldn't be as bad as was depicted earlier, and as per my much earlier post, Java and OPL are good tools for small developers like myself.
By the way: Psion Teklogix is developing an OPL compiler+runtime for Windows CE .NET. Currently only OPL16/SIBO for the new Workabout Pro, but there is a chance there will also be an OPL32 version.
martinharnevie wrote:By the way: Psion Teklogix is developing an OPL compiler+runtime for Windows CE .NET. Currently only OPL16/SIBO for the new Workabout Pro, but there is a chance there will also be an OPL32 version.
I must say that does sound rather positive.
martinharnevie wrote:Thanks for clarification Malcolm! I suspected it couldn't be as bad as was depicted earlier, and as per my much earlier post, Java and OPL are good tools for small developers like myself.By the way: Psion Teklogix is developing an OPL compiler+runtime for Windows CE .NET. Currently only OPL16/SIBO for the new Workabout Pro, but there is a chance there will also be an OPL32 version.
That's not exactly true. What they've done is written a Psion SIBO Emulator for the Workabout, and ported the old 16 bit OPL runtime. While there's every possibility that technically a direct port to Windows CE could be done, given that any future version of OPL would need to derive from teh re-write for Epoc ER1 (ie the Open Sourced, LGPL code on sourceforge) I don;t see a commercial company going down that route when something such as .Net is available. I suspect this SIBO Emulator is there urely to keep peopel on the next wave of Teklogix products and lock them in with a .net capable machine
Ewan wrote:What they've done is written a Psion SIBO Emulator for the Workabout, and ported the old 16 bit OPL runtime.
You mean a complete SIBO emulator? That's more than I knew. I get various development notes on occasion and they've only mentioned port of OPL16 to Workabout Pro and Workabout Pro S, which are Windows CE .NET machines, not a complete SIBO emulator.
The primary objective, I would think, is to make migration easier for the very large amount of enterprise users who are running OPL16 software on Workabout classic machines, e.g. Workabout mx.
And there *has* been quite advanced discussions within PT about a similar exercise for netPad/netBook to their respective CE .NET versions. This project is, I agree, nonexistent at this point.
Anyway, an extract from the latest OPL16 on Workabout Pro release notes:
Overview of the SIBO to Windows CE OPL Migration Kit
The SIBO to Windows CE OPL Migration Kit provides a run-time engine for the Workabout Pro. This program�installed on the Workabout Pro as opl.exe�runs Workabout OPL byte code. In many cases the OPL byte code can be copied unchanged from the Workabout to the Workabout Pro.
Some programs require minor changes to the OPL source code. These changes, and the options available, are described in the accompanying migration guide.
Some OPL applications using advanced features of the OPL language or exploiting peculiarities of the Workabout hardware or the SIBO system may require extensive changes. These conditions are also described in the guide.
malbry wrote:No question that OPL is an important language for Symbian development. However, the previous poster is missing the point somewhat about Java. Symbian's commitment is *not* to Personal Java or Personal Profile. Personal Java will be discontinued. Personal Profile will only appear in a device if requested by Symbian licensees (eg. Nokia commissioning a version from IBM for the 9500/9300). For example, do not expect to see Personal Profile in any UIQ devices or Series 60 devices. Ever.No, Symbian's commitment is to MIDP Java. Initial versions of MIDP Java were very restricted - memory limits, no floating point, no file system access etc. MIDP Java 2.0 with CLDC 1.1 and the new JSRs provides a much better environment including floating point, Bluetooth capability, file system access and PIM access. All these will appear as standard in new Symbian devices as from the second half of 2005 onwards.
So writing software in MIDP Java gives excellent cross-version compatibility within Series 60, UIQ, Series 80. But also such programs can often run on non-Symbian devices - an advantage which OPL software cannot match.
I am not saying MIDP Java is better than OPL or vice versa. Just want to be clear on the merits of each.
Best regards,
Malcolm
www.freepoc.org
The original poster said that it's the developer's fault if an application don't work on the new device. (9210 app on 9500) It completely irrelevant why PersonalProfile was discontinued and why there is Personal Profile java now in the new 9500. It's just bullshit. The fact is that the developer created an app in pJava that worked on 9210 and it won't work on the new phone model. And it's not the developer's fault at all.
And you talked about MIDP and JSRs. That JSR mess is the biggest cause of the incompatibility. Different phones has different JSRs and if you use them your app will work on a very few phone models.
One more thing, why shouldn't I expect Java Personal Profile in the future UIQ or Series 60 devices? I read about some 'advanced java for enterprise apps' thing in the Symbian 9 press release. That's the only weapon against .net compact framework.
Actually, the announcement clearly states that V9 is NOT binary compatible with any previous version of the OS. So jobbed's point seems quite valid.It's all very well symbian being able to adapt quickly to changes, but if they require their developer community to re-write and maintain six or seven versions of the same piece of software, those developers are going to get pissed off pretty quickly and move to another platform.
Symbian do seem to be taking their developers for granted, and that can't be seen as a good thing.
Just to clarify, Symbian 9 does break binary compatibility (not instruction set compatibility) with the previous libraries. There is some slight re-tooling of code that needs to be done to get it working on the newer devices.
Joel_ wrote:And you talked about MIDP and JSRs. That JSR mess is the biggest cause of the incompatibility. Different phones has different JSRs and if you use them your app will work on a very few phone models. One more thing, why shouldn't I expect Java Personal Profile in the future UIQ or Series 60 devices? I read about some 'advanced java for enterprise apps' thing in the Symbian 9 press release. That's the only weapon against .net compact framework.
You are right, different phones provide different JSRs today. But Symbian have said that in future they are going to provide a common set of JSRs as part of the OS. That means every licensee will get them. Those JSRs will provide Bluetooth, file system access and (later) PIM access from MIDP Java. So we will see *every* new Symbian phone with this functionality. And that is good news for developers, I think.
In relation to Java Personal Profile, it's my opinion that we'll never see it in UIQ or S60 devices. I would love to be proved wrong, since - as a Java developer - I would love to have a more powerful development language available for these devices. However I think that Symbian have made it pretty clear that they will only provide MIDP Java, bundled with the OS. For Java Personal Profile to become available it would have to
(a) be commissioned by a Symbian licensee, like Sony Ericsson for UIQ
(b) be provided by a third-party, not Symbian
Right now, I think that's highly unlikely. I hope I am wrong.
Best regards,
Malcolm
www.freepoc.org
Enjolras wrote:Just to clarify, Symbian 9 does break binary compatibility (not instruction set compatibility) with the previous libraries. There is some slight re-tooling of code that needs to be done to get it working on the newer devices.
If this is true regardless of which target device (e.g. ARM9 cpu) you compile towards, then of course I was wrong on this point earlier. My apologies.
malbry wrote:
In relation to Java Personal Profile, it's my opinion that we'll never see it in UIQ or S60 devices. I would love to be proved wrong, since - as a Java developer - I would love to have a more powerful development language available for these devices. However I think that Symbian have made it pretty clear that they will only provide MIDP Java, bundled with the OS. For Java Personal Profile to become available it would have to (a) be commissioned by a Symbian licensee, like Sony Ericsson for UIQ
(b) be provided by a third-party, not Symbian
Right now, I think that's highly unlikely. I hope I am wrong.
Best regards,
Malcolm
www.freepoc.org
Ok, I agree, Symbian is unlikely to provide Personal Profile built into the OS (for some stupid reason) but I do hope that the future UIQ devices will include it as the only migration path for pJava apps (like the Nokia 9300/9500 that has Personal Profile now).
My biggest problem with MIDP is that it's impossible to create professional UI (with menus, buttons, custom layouts etc.) which is needed for a good UIQ or Series 80 app and I've never heard any JSR that is supposed to solve this problem.
Joel_ wrote:Ok, I agree, Symbian is unlikely to provide Personal Profile built into the OS (for some stupid reason) but I do hope that the future UIQ devices will include it as the only migration path for pJava apps (like the Nokia 9300/9500 that has Personal Profile now).
My biggest problem with MIDP is that it's impossible to create professional UI (with menus, buttons, custom layouts etc.) which is needed for a good UIQ or Series 80 app and I've never heard any JSR that is supposed to solve this problem.
We agree on Personal Profile! I'd love nothing more than to have Personal Profile on UIQ. Then the investment that I've made in writing my freeware pJava programs (plus some private unreleased ones) would not go to waste.
We also agree on MIDP Java. The UI is take-it-or-leave-it, little customisation is possible within Forms and so on. But the #1 issue for me is the lack of file system access in standard MIDP. Luckily Symbian has committed in future OS versions to include the JSR which addresses that problem.
Best regards,
Malcolm
www.freepoc.org
Bassey, there is a way for developers to install their own apps on 9.1 that are not completely powerless - check out developer certificates.