The 9500 just got some serious competition: the MDA IV

Ismail wrote:if you think that is the competition i think you are wrong

This is the competion!!!!!!

really really loving it

hope they give it a good processor

I quite agree with others that this device is not a competition at all for the 9500. The MDA IV is, though. Apart from the yet unknown battery life and exact dimensions, as well as the absence of EDGE (EGPRS) support, and maybe the WM OS (a taste issue for many), all the other features are far better than those of the Nokia 9500: UMTS, two cameras, one of them megapixel, full compatibility with PCs, touchscreen, handwriting recognition for short notes or contacts, memory, processor.
I still like the open source Symbian, as well as Nokia design, but I think being an independence fighter becomes more and more tiresome, even if I still have serious doubts about WM (we don't know the upcoming 2005 version, though).
What I have just read in the thread about the VPN issue, makes me to scrutinise everything that Nokia say, they are the best marketing experts on earth: they announced the 9500 one year ago, kept people waiting till the 4th quarter (they announced the 9300 even before the 9500 came to the market), then the device came out in November with quite a bad firmware, speed and other problems arising, and there are still a lot a things to be sorted out about the Communicator.
I can only wish Nokia good luck, patient customers, and for us that the competition of the MDA IV will make the Communicator series better. In the meantime and in the light of new specifications of the MDA IV, we'll continue the debate, I'm sure.

BB333 wrote:
I still like the open source Symbian, as well as Nokia design, but I think being an independence fighter becomes more and more tiresome, even if I still have serious doubts about WM (we don't know the upcoming 2005 version, though).
What I have just read in the thread about the VPN issue, makes me to scrutinise everything that Nokia say, they are the best marketing experts on earth: they announced the 9500 one year ago, kept people waiting till the 4th quarter (they announced the 9300 even before the 9500 came to the market), then the device came out in November with quite a bad firmware, speed and other problems arising, and there are still a lot a things to be sorted out about the Communicator.
I can only wish Nokia good luck, patient customers, and for us that the competition of the MDA IV will make the Communicator series better. In the meantime and in the light of new specifications of the MDA IV, we'll continue the debate, I'm sure.

Fully agree with you on this, I was a psion, then a 9210 then a 9500 user, but am really fed up now to fight in order to connect to standard business things such as pgp or vpn, or to find adequate standard business applications and not only cosmetic things to modify agenda settings or today screens !!

it's been three months that the 9500 is on the market now and there is absolutely nothing serious made to improve its browser or to bring correct business application.

.... and despite the fact that I absolutely love this small appliance, I will leave it for something else if Nokia and symbian developpers do not come with something serious in the next two months....

on such a product, we could even have a full J2SE is someone cared to port it, correct standard vpn support, correct speed of rendering complex html pages, compatibility with pgp 8.0, .... but it seems that all the time spent by nokia between the announcement and the first delivery of the product was in fact used to build it and not to enhance it, this is crazy , and the sure way to loose business people. They should not forget that even for corporations, decision makers use this kind of products and are able to say no to their IT department if something does not arrive as quickly as anticipated

bluestar wrote:Fully agree with you on this, I was a psion, then a 9210 then a 9500 user, but am really fed up now to fight in order to connect to standard business things such as pgp or vpn, or to find adequate standard business applications and not only cosmetic things to modify agenda settings or today screens !!

...........

I think the 9500/9300 must be the last communicator, Nokia do not have the will to compete in this market. The gap between the release of the 9210 & 9500, there have been almost 4 generations of the MDA, dozens of iPaq's, each one improving on the last one. Nokia just seem to release a PDA and then snooze for 5 years.

Nobody can argue that Microsoft has not been succesful as a company. They have a very aggresive policy when it comes to 'getting it right' they just keep updating and updating until they get it right, same with SonyEricson, Nokia was miles ahead of Ericson two years ago, now there is not so much difference.

Don't get me wrong I really like my 9300 and I find Symbian to be far more intuitive than the MS mobile OS's for now, but really why is the 9300's PDA side inferior to the Psion5mx that was released 8ish years ago? it's even inferior to the Psion 3a/mx.....how can they go backwards?.

Oh well I suppose we'll all have to wait for some ROM updates that make little to no difference to the real issues that we have and in the meantime we'll see the competition leapfrog Nokia with real innovation.

Squeek, all PDAs on the market with the exception of the Psion Netbook pro are pretty much inferior to the Psion 5 and 3 series PDAs. Because for some reason the people at the top seemed to decide that they weren't the kind of devices we are after. As for not focusing on the Communicator, Nokia make far far more money on other devices so its not a surprise that the communicator got put on the back burner for a while. In that time though, no PDA's were released that I could see being better for functionality for me than the 9210, they offered more toys and silly things, but for working on the 9210 was still superior.

Squeek wrote:Don't get me wrong I really like my 9300 and I find Symbian to be far more intuitive than the MS mobile OS's for now, but really why is the 9300's PDA side inferior to the Psion5mx that was released 8ish years ago? it's even inferior to the Psion 3a/mx.....how can they go backwards?.

You are so right, so right, that as an owner of seven Psions since 1991, and now two 9300s my heart is bleeding wondering about the very same thing. Everything has its reasons, but going only backwards during the last ten or even more years is so very, very hard to comprehend and accept.

Here you have the dimensions and other specs of the MDA IV.

http://www.inside-handy.de/handydatenbank/T-Mobile/MDA%204/datenblatt/642-1.html

and some other comments:

http://www.modaco.com/index.php?showtopic=200538

Funny, I have been away from this site since my SX1 purchase almost a year ago, found it unusable due to the key-layout and switched quickly to a qtek 2020 (the XDA II)... and true there is a lot of software to make you do tons - all with XP feel and compatability. I have stuck with the qtek for almost a year now.

I did see the MDA IV pics about 2-3 weeks ago, when anounced, and really wanted to wait for it, as it has a MegaPix Cam and UMTS. I think the keyboard is without a doubt, the best thing, having compared with previous phones with T9 to the crazy SX1 keyboard layout. Also, I believe that the MS Mobile (2003) platform has some issues with stability.

I simply got tired of the Qtek, as I could never seem to get mail working properly, nor MMS and had the tiny pop-up screen keyboard which just seemed too goofy, although having hung in there for a long time. Nice extras I had (my qtek 2020 is for sale, by the way, so I am still sticking to past tense 😊 ) were a bluetooth Nokia HW-3s headset (keeping that one), a bluetooth GPS - with Destinator running (worked nice, SOMEtimes!) as well as a sandisk WiFi card (having to plug it in, when needed).

Maybe, I could use the qtek as a gps, as the phone/pda never really did it for me 🙄

All fine - but then I saw - and tried, played around, fell in love with the 9500, in the store, as I had not seen it IRL before. I am talking ferrari class here. Also, having said that, one of my good friends, has had the 9210i since it came out, and always liked it. So, I made the purchase, and must say, the 9500 just simply works. Design is nice too. And as I am used to a big phone from the qtek, I find the 9500 a bit handier.

No quarrels getting WiFI with WAP working out of the box. Downloaded the 3-4 nokia site addons (PDF and ZIP manager, etc.), all works. Fax works. PowerPoint works. Word editing works, just as my Excel files. Outlook synced smoothly (actually the qtek worked well here too) first time, just as Agile Messenger (AOL and MSN - nice app.) over GPRS works well. All works as it should. I am now quite happy.

If Nokia wan't to make this winner even better, they should include UMTS, quad band, vibrator (didn't know it wasn't there - only real negative I have with regards to the 9500, yet I actually don't think I will miss it) and a 3 megapixel camera (minimum for quality prints - I feel).

That's it, anyway... My 101 on how to make a Ferrari 348 into a 360 Modena. Wroomm...

I think I will be happy with my 9500 for quite sometime, although I am hard to please, or so my girlfriend says 😉

L8R,

Gnuig
(Copenhagen, DK)

PS. Also, the Nokia 9500 here in Denmark has the native letters �,� and �, which I am quite sure that no HTC machine will ever have. I did, however, download one for the qtek 2020 - for the mini-help-me-type-correctly-touch-screen keyboard, quite funny actually... nice app. too as well 😊

First real live pics are available
http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3584.html

As you can see not that big. So that's one "complaint" less. Now, how about that battery 😉

Delta737 wrote:First real live pics are available
http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3584.html

As you can see not that big. So that's one "complaint" less. Now, how about that battery 😉

I copy here the data which are to be found on the German website I indicated above.

Betriebssytem: Windows Mobile Version: 2005

Ma�e
Gewicht: 210 g
Abmessungen: 125x72x19 mm
Volumen:
Akkutyp / Leistung: Li-Polymer / 1490 mAh
StandBy: bis zu UP TO 168 h
Gespr�chszeit TALK TIME: bis zu UP TO 3 h

Thanks for that.

If this is true, I'm pretty disappointed. I don't think 1490 will be enough to cope with a VGA screen, GSM, UMTS, WIFI and Bluetooth.

Gnuig wrote:Funny, I have been away from this site since my SX1 purchase almost a year ago, found it unusable due to the key-layout and switched quickly to a qtek 2020 (the XDA II)... and true there is a lot of software to make you do tons - all with XP feel and compatability. I have stuck with the qtek for almost a year now.

I did see the MDA IV pics about 2-3 weeks ago, when anounced, and really wanted to wait for it, as it has a MegaPix Cam and UMTS. I think the keyboard is without a doubt, the best thing, having compared with previous phones with T9 to the crazy SX1 keyboard layout. Also, I believe that the MS Mobile (2003) platform has some issues with stability.

I simply got tired of the Qtek, as I could never seem to get mail working properly, nor MMS and had the tiny pop-up screen keyboard which just seemed too goofy, although having hung in there for a long time. Nice extras I had (my qtek 2020 is for sale, by the way, so I am still sticking to past tense 😊 ) were a bluetooth Nokia HW-3s headset (keeping that one), a bluetooth GPS - with Destinator running (worked nice, SOMEtimes!) as well as a sandisk WiFi card (having to plug it in, when needed).

Maybe, I could use the qtek as a gps, as the phone/pda never really did it for me 🙄

All fine - but then I saw - and tried, played around, fell in love with the 9500, in the store, as I had not seen it IRL before. I am talking ferrari class here. Also, having said that, one of my good friends, has had the 9210i since it came out, and always liked it. So, I made the purchase, and must say, the 9500 just simply works. Design is nice too. And as I am used to a big phone from the qtek, I find the 9500 a bit handier.

No quarrels getting WiFI with WAP working out of the box. Downloaded the 3-4 nokia site addons (PDF and ZIP manager, etc.), all works. Fax works. PowerPoint works. Word editing works, just as my Excel files. Outlook synced smoothly (actually the qtek worked well here too) first time, just as Agile Messenger (AOL and MSN - nice app.) over GPRS works well. All works as it should. I am now quite happy.

If Nokia wan't to make this winner even better, they should include UMTS, quad band, vibrator (didn't know it wasn't there - only real negative I have with regards to the 9500, yet I actually don't think I will miss it) and a 3 megapixel camera (minimum for quality prints - I feel).

That's it, anyway... My 101 on how to make a Ferrari 348 into a 360 Modena. Wroomm...

I think I will be happy with my 9500 for quite sometime, although I am hard to please, or so my girlfriend says 😉

L8R,

Gnuig
(Copenhagen, DK)

PS. Also, the Nokia 9500 here in Denmark has the native letters �,� and �, which I am quite sure that no HTC machine will ever have. I did, however, download one for the qtek 2020 - for the mini-help-me-type-correctly-touch-screen keyboard, quite funny actually... nice app. too as well 😊

Thank you for this valuable contribution to the debate, you should have submitted it already to my previous thread N9500 vs Qtek9090 (which is worse than Qtek 2020, yellow screen, an unusable thumb keyboard). Your comments are important, because you used both devices, and finally I see someone who is happy with his 9500 what makes me to consider the purchase, too (still using my 9210).

As for the MDA IV (or HTC Universal), we don't know its usability and that of the Windows Mobile 2005 platform, because - if I remember well - it will only be presented on 16th February (actually tomorrow).

Actually, there should also be a thread with the comments of people who are happy with their 9500 Communicator, please copy your comment and launch the thread. It would encourage people to buy this device and contribute to its viability and Symbian's strength...

I'd be willing to bet good money that WM -05 is as unoptimised for keyboard use as the previous versions of the OS. Which means you'd have to pull out the stylus for most operations.

I also don't see it being that comfortable for non-thumb typing. And it looks but-ugly, IMO, and is quite heavy compared to my 9300. And maybe most importantly - it is not a phone in the traditional sense. Which means no one-handed phone use, not being able to see who's calling when it's closed, etc.

With all that said, I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. And I actually hope it does really well. Because that would mean that there is in fact a market for keyboard oriented landscape clamshell devices. Which should put the squeeze on Symbian licensees to produce more Communicator-type phones. :icon14:

Here is the MDA IV compared to the 9500 (in size):
http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3586.html

Delta737 wrote:Here is the MDA IV compared to the 9500 (in size):
http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/3586.html

Thank you, they are really good pictures. My first impression is that the MDA IV is just a perfect business tool, but the Nokia Communicator has still got a more beautiful design and it has some more keys on the keyboard.

I'm just wondering how the characters with accent can be typed, as there is one key less to the right of 0, two buttons less at L and two after m (,) compared to a laptop/desktop keyboard (the Communicator has got one more in each line). I am aware that many people type only in English, but in most of the European languages there are many other characters which are used in almost every word, not to mention the Greek alphabet's inherent difference. It is not very elegant to write in Hungarian for instance without accents, but I change to seven other languages on a daily basis.

I should like to know, how localisation for these keyboards (Comm., MDA IV) work, the compatibility of the characters between Symbian and Windows (deskops, servers); although even my Nokia 9210 uses Unicode characters, my partners quite frequently receive my texts with funny characters, not too similar to those which appeared on the Communicator's screen (and there is at the beginning a remark: text converted from EPOC, but that conversion is a distortion of the charachters). The Unicode's main purpose ought to be exactly to avoid that... So, my question is: if you are editing a PC office file containing characters with accent on your 9500, ie inserting some new text with the Unicode characters of the Communicator, do they appear after a transfer to the PC just as if they would have been written on the latter? Actually, that would be the prerequisite for Nokia's claim that the 9500 is a mobile office. And what do you know about WM 2005: are documents still converted when exchanging them with a PC or this would not need a conversion any more?

Hmms, it may be shorter than the 9500 but it looks a damn sight wider. I'm not sure that'll be comfortable in pockets unless you wear baggy clothes, 9500 may be long but it's slim enough to go in the pocket of a pair of jeans comfortably. Oh and in those photos the MDA unit looks damn ugly.

I beleive phones are very personal tools... as every one is made for a group of people...

Some like Palm OS, Some like PPC, and the rest like Symbian OS...

Some like PDA, Some like Brick, some like clam Shell...

and i beleive there will be always new devices which will come out time to time... but my strong beleive is the Nokia 9500 users (the communicator gang) will always stick to the Communicators...

Please correct me if i am wrong...

I have been a Psion user since the series 5. I still have a Netbook, but since getting my 9500, I have decided I no longer even need that (Which is perfect for document composition and reading PDFs)

One thing I really like about Symbian software (EPOC) is the small footprint of both the applications and the documents. A 128MB MMC card full of Symbian documents and apps is probably the equivalent of a 1GB MMC card for Pocket PC docs and apps.

Windows based PDAs are just like their big brothers, Windows PCs. They are bloatware. The OS takes up lots of storage space and the applications alone are massive in comparison to Symbian apps. The OS itself is more processor intensive too, so 2 equivalent PDAs, one with Symbian OS and another with Windows Pocket pc will perform completely differently. The Symbian machine will run faster with the same processor and will be able to hold more applications and native documents with the same amount of memory. Of course, storing an MP3 is the same size on both devices, but storing a Spreadsheet on a Symbian device may take less than 100KB, whereas the same spreadsheet on a Windows PDA may take up to 1mb.

For this reason, windows machines need more memory and processing power, but that vital storage space on your media card will be wasted by the excessively bloated software installed.

Remember, Symbian OS was originally designed for the Psion series PDAs which had low power processors and just a couple of MB which was shared for both RAM and storage, so efficiency and optimisation was fundamental from the very beginning. Windows PDAs have an operating system containing legacy Windows 95/98/NT/2000/XP code. Many of its applications are cut down ports of the Desktop equivalents. Effectively, windows based PDAs have a Desktop OS installed, with many desktop features removed to save space, but have documents in the same bloated formats and shared code (DLLS) containing unused procedures as does their desktop counterparts.

I would always choose a tool built for the job. Symbian OS was built from the ground up to be an efficient PDA operating system. Windows based PDAs, use a half arsed desktop operating system, which itself isn't stable.

I'll take a Symbian OS pda any day of the week, because I always like their stability and efficiency and never liked my iPAQ which did little more than make me buy bigger memory cards so I could install more applications that would transfer my blue screen of death from my desktop to my handheld.

How big the screen is, how easy the keyboard is to type and how comfortable they are in your pocket, are all factors, but not significant ones in my opinion. Over time, you get used to a keyboard. A larger screen may be preferable, but there is always a price to pay, such as being a bigger device that needs a bigger battery and therefore more weight. Fitting in your pocket is also a consideration that has a price, namely screen and key sizes. The 9500 has a great screen and a keyboard I can work with. It has an OS I am familiar with and have found reliable for well over a decade. It now has all the functionality and connectivity I hoped the 5MX would be upgraded too. There isn't another PDA/phone/computer I'd rather have. It's the best value for money purchase I've ever made and that includes my house, car and every electrical item I have ever owned.

Thank you for this valuable contribution, it is very honest and persuasive.

If I only typed in English, the Communicator would be really more than perfect, but I have to work in several other languages with accents as well as the Greek alphabet. The wonderful localization of Interkey (which can be downloaded for the 9210) by Epocware is not yet available for the 9500, and even proper (eg Hungarian) keyboards have a non usual layout, other characters are hard to be found.

My other problem is speed. I don't understand why Nokia is not aware that if they are not developing the Communicator series with the top available processors and every other part, they would lose their image of leader in this area, the MDA IV is already called by msmobiles.com as the "Nokia Communicator killer" which shows already the intentions of war of MS.
The faithful Communicator folk would deserve the best device of the Nokia range, not a compromise only, even is the biggest profit is in the mid-range phones' sale.

Heres is the thread (9500 - I wonder why only a 150mhz processor? - I copied hereinafter)

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum//forum/thread/36147/

Hmmm
I wonder why Nokia decided to put a weaker processor? than they could have into their flagship phone(s) 9500 & 9300?

Granted faster processor = possibly higher battery drain, but they could have made the battery slightly beefier, with only a slight size increase.

Afterall the two new 3G phones, the 6630 & 6680 both have 220mhz processors in them!?
Unless the Texas Instruments OMAP 1510 inside the 9500/9300, clocking at 150mhz is a more powerful beast than an ARM9 running at 220mhz?

Anyone know possibly why the choice in processors?

Xoio

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Clock speed of processor does not equal speed of device in real-life use.

With a battery operated mobile device it is also a balancing act between power consumption and performance; faster clock rate = more power needed = shorter usage time.

And a higher clock rate implies also greater heat dissipation (more wasted power + higher tolerances required of components, more difficult to to manage without making the device too hot to the touch).

And with the 9500 there are also other rather power-hungry components (large display, WLAN, Bluetooth + of course the cellular radio) which usage time has to be "maximal" as well.

Anyway, only the original hardware designer (or whatever team did it) really knows for sure why exactly they decided to pick just that processor and run it at just that speed. They are not likely to reply here, I suppose.

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There are usually several reasons why this might be the case, including:
- designing a communicator is a lot harder than a Series 60 phone. Series 60 phones tend to be evolutionary compared to the revolutionary designs of Series 80 phones. Hence the 9500 has probably been in the development process for 2 years, where as the Series 60 phones most likely can churn out a new model every 9 months. Hence the choices of CPUs 2 years ago may not be as good as the choices today.
- BOM cost. Its all about the BOM. The 9500 has a whole bunch of very expensive hardware, with the screen topping it all. One way to claw back this price (remembering USD 1 at the BOM may equal USD 4-5 at the customer end), is to reduce the spec of the phone. Also, as these devices sell a crap load less than Series 60 phones, some of the items will not achieve the same economies of scale.

BB333 wrote:My other problem is speed.

Speed is fine as long as you know how to use the machine. Opening closed applications will always be slower on Symbian devices because of the memory structure. A ~400 MHz CPU on a Symbian phone would be redundant and only result in abysmal battery life. But sure, I guess they could have beefed it up to around 200-250 MHz or so. But then again, they'd have to use a completely different processor type.

the MDA IV is already called by msmobiles.com as the "Nokia Communicator killer" which shows already the intentions of war of MS.

Nobody in their right mind takes anything Jacek from MSMobiles says seriously.

I never understand this obsession with more speed. The Nokia 9500 is a business device. When creating and editing documents it has more than adequate performance. Receiving email is as fast as whatever connection you use and the application design, actually makes it much faster than Outlook on a Windows PDA, by only downloading headers instead of the full message and attachments. The browser is quite fast. The thing that slows me down is navigating with the control pad, but that's just because I don't have a Playstation, so need more practice. Connectivity applications I use, such as SSH terminal emulators and Citrix Metaframe client work well, with the only drawback, again being the screen size, not the processor speed.

The only thing I think speed would be an issue for is game playing. For that, I'd buy an NGage, Gameboy or Handheld PS2, not a business device.

I suppose loading some apps can be slow, but that's why it has 80MB memory. Leave them loaded as they each take only a few hundred KB on average. Load time shouldn't determine performance ratings, but using those apps when open, should. Combine 'Always On' and an application preloaded and no Windows Laptop can compete, even if it is in suspend mode. How fast do you need? You open up your 9500 and the app is loaded and ready to use immediately!

As a business device I want the following: -

Connectivity
Document editing and viewing
Contact information and some databases
Telephony
Battery life
Reliability

Effectively, a mobile office that will not have a flat battery every time I open it, not a games console. The 9500 and I suspect the 9300 do these things and more.

Do I want a 9500 that runs faster, that will be a bit heavier because of the bigger battery needed that may take longer to charge and perhaps not last as long? What for? I want my device to work well, not faster if only the battery wasn't flat ... again.

I agree with both of you. Speed should be a matter of consideration together with all the other factors which you have mentioned.

However, I should like to stress two facts.

I have read in one of the threads of this forum that Opera is one of the best browsers with their speed and smart renderint technology. Combined with Wi-Fi 11Mbit/s speed it should produce a miracle. But it does not. Opera's engineers warned Nokia to opt for a better processor which could cope with the data stream at a proper level even with Wi-Fi (for GPRS the 150MHz OMAP processor of Texas Instruments is enough, beyond any doubt), but Nokia just didn't listen... For me it needn't be an Intel and a 400MHz, I am for fair competition, but Texas Instruments could also produce a better performing processor. And hence my problem with Nokia. They just don't care. They could have changed (in the last months of developing the device) the VGA camera to a megapixel one from which onwards you can have real picture quality (they did have in imaging phones series), a better processor which Raven also mentioned that had already been available etc...
The MDA IV of T-Mobile (and all the other variants) is the real flagships of their brand with no compromise, the MDAs have always been updated (yearly) not like the 9210 (3 years till the announcement, almost 4 until you could get really the 9500), and in the meantime also SonyEricsson conquered many of the Symbian people with THREE devices (P800, P900, P910i) even if it is not of the same league with the 9500, but the 9210 didn't even have GPRS... When competition is so fierce Nokia will not be able to do the same for long. The Communicator development cannot be an issue of last priority (left to a time after all the other devices have made more profit) with an update every second year. If Nokia wants to remain a player in this portfolio, they shouldn't take anything for granted (have you seen what Samsung presented on the CeBit compared to the low profile Nokia had there?...), they should put the best available technology into the communicators and we should be treated as the top of the top customers if we own one of the communicator series devices and not like onlookers of the marketing manoeuvring of Nokia which very often just tell lies, let's think of the push e-mail capability of the 9500 promised availability in January 2005... and I could just continue the list with non honoured undertakings in software and VPN compatibility (maybe now the MS Exchange server licence will make it easier for the future communicator generations).

Conclusion: the communicator should be the image maker and flagship of Nokia, having really everything on board, megapixel camera, FM Radio and the best performing processor (taking into account certainly that less processing power is needed because of the EPOC architecture of Symbian), not so many firmware problems (just read the threads in this forum...) etc. Otherwise Nokia will face too many serious competitors in this market segment which treat their MDA (and all other combined all in one devices) as their real flagship so they might have an increasing market share. Nothing can be taken for granted in our times where technologies change so fast and loyalty to a brand and to a certain type of device might fade away very rapidly, too...