Communicator competition? ... runs Linix (with Qtopia), WinCE and Symbian....

If this thing ever comes out, I'll probably get it...

As simple as that really... Nokia you better rethink 😉 It's not the business men you should target, it's the business geeks 😉

Looks like they've taken one look at the Communicator and thought "That looks good, lets copy that".

The design doesn't strike me as anything special, interested to use one, but I think i'd prefer to stick with the 9500.

J2theIZZO wrote:Looks like they've taken one look at the Communicator and thought "That looks good, lets copy that".

The design doesn't strike me as anything special, interested to use one, but I think i'd prefer to stick with the 9500.

You need me to help you yank your head out...?😉 😊 :P 😃

I reckon this device is a mix of several other devices, communicator being only one of them, MX5 being one, but foremost I think that the Zaurus (with added phone and proper keyboard) is the inspiration 😃

I for one would love the differences:
- Linux over Symbian
- "real" keyboard over the managing-director-thumb-tapping-9500
- Touch screen - Even the Revo had it!
- 2MP camera (compared to the squinting-throught-a-drunks-eyes 9500) 😉
- Proper CPU
- Vibration alarm

.... In short --- Sweet!

I want one 😃

TheJoker wrote:You need me to help you yank your head out...?😉 😊 :P 😃

I reckon this device is a mix of several other devices, communicator being only one of them, MX5 being one, but foremost I think that the Zaurus (with added phone and proper keyboard) is the inspiration 😃

I for one would love the differences:
- Linux over Symbian
- "real" keyboard over the managing-director-thumb-tapping-9500
- Touch screen - Even the Revo had it!
- 2MP camera (compared to the squinting-throught-a-drunks-eyes 9500) 😉
- Proper CPU
- Vibration alarm

.... In short --- Sweet!

I want one 😃

No thanks, my head is fine where it is!

Here are my questions to the differences you love:

- What advantages does Linux have over Symbian?, What is software availbility like?
- Why does this Linux device have a "real" keyboard, I don't see any major difference between the keyboard on this and on the 9500 (Is this device even bigger than the 9500?)
- Touch screen addition is nice granted, but that's what shortcut keys are for (Haven't you figured them out yet?)
- What is the advantage of having a 2MP camera?, as with most/all camera phones to date, the 2MP just refers to the size of the image, not the quality..just means you get a big file size but still a poor quality picture...I would prefer it without a camera TBH (Like the 9300)
- Because it has an Intel CPU this somehow defines it as "proper"?, I don't see any method in this statement, please expand on it.
-Vibration alarm is not included on the 9500 as it potentially damages the hardware!, what makes you think that it won't do the same on this...think how much force is needed to move an object so big & heavy!?!

In short - I don't see the attraction.

J2theIZZO wrote:Why does this Linux device have a "real" keyboard, I don't see any major difference between the keyboard on this and on the 9500 (Is this device even bigger than the 9500?)

Only in width; "Dimensions 128x60x25mm". Which means it is even shorter than the 9300, so forget about a 'proper' keyboard.

In short - I don't see the attraction.

I see the attraction in terms of features, but certainly not looks-wise.

It's also rumoured to come in a WinCE and Symbian version - but that doesn't make much sense.

It's good to see more form factors like this, but I think it will have much of the same problems as Windows and Palm OS powered phones - poor telephony support. Just look at all the phone related problems users of the Jam and Treo 650 are experiencing.

Personally I don't find anything worthwhile in the ROAD to make me wanna get rid of my 9300. Phone cameras are cr@p no matter how you look at it. A 400MHz CPU results in poor battery life. A vibration alert doesn't make much sense in a unit of this size, as you wouldn't be able to feel it in most cases.

If the ROAD ever turns out to be more than vapourware, it will be definitely be interesting to see how well it gets received. There's no way it'll outsell Nokia though, but I sure hope it means that the keyboard oriented PDA is now reborn! 😊

J2theIZZO wrote:No thanks, my head is fine where it is!

Here are my questions to the differences you love:

- What advantages does Linux have over Symbian?, What is software availbility like?

J2theIZZO wrote:
- Why does this Linux device have a "real" keyboard, I don't see any major difference between the keyboard on this and on the 9500 (Is this device even bigger than the 9500?)

J2theIZZO wrote:
- Touch screen addition is nice granted, but that's what shortcut keys are for

J2theIZZO wrote:
(Haven't you figured them out yet?)

J2theIZZO wrote:
- What is the advantage of having a 2MP camera?, as with most/all camera phones to date, the 2MP just refers to the size of the image, not the quality..just means you get a big file size but still a poor quality picture...I would prefer it without a camera TBH (Like the 9300)

I also thought that I would not use the camera on phones, but the P800 proved that I've been snapping pictures left right and center - remove it and I would not miss it - give me one, and I want something that captures more than the colour of the surrounding.

J2theIZZO wrote:
- Because it has an Intel CPU this somehow defines it as "proper"?, I don't see any method in this statement, please expand on it.

J2theIZZO wrote:
-Vibration alarm is not included on the 9500 as it potentially damages the hardware!, what makes you think that it won't do the same on this...think how much force is needed to move an object so big & heavy!?!

I don't think a well made gadget will be damaged by a little vibration, and the 9500 isn't that big.
The P800 vibrates just fine at 158g, the 9500 is 220g, if this (vaporware) product weighs in at 210g, surely that extra 50g over the P800 isn't going to be a show-stopper?
I carried the P800 in my jeans pocket all the time, and while standing up, that's mainly where my 9500 is too - if it could vibrate, I'd really love that.
Btw, I don't think the vibration is excluded because of the potential damage, but simply because they couldn't fit one in there.

J2theIZZO wrote:
In short - I don't see the attraction.

Have a look at the Qtopia page and you might just be surprised.
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qtopia/

TheJoker wrote:I could happily touch-type using all 10 digits on the Revo - there's no chance I can do that on the 9500 (which btw, 'wastes' over 10mm on each side of the keyboard)

If you can't touch type on the 9500, you won't be able to do it on the ROAD either. Just compare the dimensions.

The 9500 has, AFAIK, a 150mHz processor (same as in P800?), the ROAD S101 has got a 400mhz processor.

The 9500/9300 uses a completely different processor than the P800. Comparing clock speed is useless because of different internal architecture etc. The dual core TI OMAP 1510 w/ extra DSP chip used in the 9500/9300 is supposed to be both very powerful and power efficient. Speed is in most cases just a matter of software and how optimised it is for the hardware.

I've seen Qtopia run on early Sharp Zauruses, and iPaqs, and it's always been speedy - My guess is that the 400mhz processor will give me that 'instant' feeling that I so much miss from the 9500 (if my memory serves, humans think of an instant action as something that happens faster than 0.2s).
And on top of that, to decode video you need plenty of crunching power - I reckon this device could play full screen videos without breaking much sweat.

Most actions performed on the Communicator are instantaneous. Some are not., but all in all it doesn't feel sluggish to me. And I always take comfort in knowing that my data is safely preserved in Flash, and that my phone doesn't need constant reboots to free up memory. I haven't used a Zaurus etc., but hopefully it is at least more secure and stable than Win Mobile.

The 9500/9300 can play back full screen vids with OK quality/speed using the Mobile Media Maker.

I don't think a well made gadget will be damaged by a little vibration, and the 9500 isn't that big.
The P800 vibrates just fine at 158g, the 9500 is 220g, if this (vaporware) product weighs in at 210g, surely that extra 50g over the P800 isn't going to be a show-stopper?
I carried the P800 in my jeans pocket all the time, and while standing up, that's mainly where my 9500 is too - if it could vibrate, I'd really love that.
Btw, I don't think the vibration is excluded because of the potential damage, but simply because they couldn't fit one in there.

I think the point here is that for a vibrate motor to be powerful enough to actually be useful (the P800's vibrate function was useless IMO), it could indeed cause damage to some of the more sensitive internal components.

You don't, I do - quite simple. The 9500 is, at present, the best hardware (with a very old UI), but it's far from perfect - it might be more perfect for pure business people - but I'm not one of those, I'm a geek and I want my gadgets to reflect that, this device might just do that.

I'm not a business person as such either, but the only thing I find really missing from my 9300 is more quality third party software. The 9500/9300 is much more powerful than some people here seem to think, we only need those talented programmers to realise the potential in the platform and show us through decent software what the Communicator really is capable of. :icon14:

Raven as pretty much crossed all points that I would make, you do make a valid argument in some points, others I don't agree on.

Perhaps as you are a Linux desktop user there is something to be said for having it both on your desktop and in your pocket as you pointed out. I'm not a huge Linux fan (I use Linux on my Xbox..that's it), it's perfectly stable from the command line, but most varients with GUI based navigation i've found to be pretty poor in the reliability stakes.

On the CPU front, as Raven pointed out clock speed in this case is irrelivant, you are comparing 2 completely different operating systems, linux/windows on desktop is a good example of this......I run a Windows 2003 based server from this office, it's got 2 x 3.6Ghz Xeon 64bit CPU's in it, if the server was running Linux it wouldn't need anywhere near that amount of processing power to run at the same sort of working speeds. Also battery consumption has to be taken into account, the 9500/9300 in my opinon have a very good battery life, compared with most PPC's i've owned the past it's a completely different type of device, I was lucky to get 5-6 hours use from a PPC with a 400Mhz processor, but my 9500 can last anywhere upto 2 days without a charge and pretty heavy useage. Guess it's a trade off between waiting those 0.2seconds and perhaps a few 0.xx's more on the 9500...I know which I prefer 😉

I think it's far to early to judge this device, but IMO on the face of things there isn't enough there to interest me away from a Communicator, i'm far from being part of the "Pro Symbian mafia", I like to think I have an open mind on all OS/Devices (I also use an Imate Jam on a daily basis)....as you say it's all down to personal preference.

i still dont understand why the 9500 doesnt have vibarater

and the excuse everybody uses"it might hurt the system inside" i doubt thats true cause the imate pda2k is much bigger and heaiver and has vibrator

the road doesnt seem bad at all but will it ever be available?

Slim down answer, or I'll try at least 😉

Touch typing:
It's not as much the size of the keys as it's their layout and feedback. Admittedly the keys on the 9500 are very small, but it's also very difficult to judge when you're moving from one key ot another one. From the (vaporware?) pictures the ROAD looks like it's got the keys properly separated. If they'd send me a test sample, I'd be happy to try 😉 😃

CPU/OS/App speed and mHz
Agreed, a faster CPU doesn't mean a faster machine. And you can "kill" a fast machine by running a badly optimised application.
Point however is that the Zauruses/iPaq that I've seen, have been running at 200/300mHz, and they've been reasonably fast, thus this one should be faster.

Communicator speed
Me and Raven-Gutten have had this debate before, I stand by my opinion, the 9500 is dog slow in several operations. Regardless of reason; OS/Hardware/Application. If Raven doesn't experience his 9300 (if memory serves) as slow, I'm really glad.

I also agree that non-volatile memory is very nice to have, I hated my iPaq loosing everything, all the time.

Too bad you found P800 vibrate function useless, I found it ok while it was in my trouser pocket (useless in a floppy jacket, but that's expectable)

3rd party software
Agree - we need more applications - but still, some of the features should have been built in, like scheduled mail retreival and "send and recieve all". On that note, I reckon that the future of my 9500 ownership depends on how well Nokia can upgrade the Firmware/OS - Currently I think it's slow, buggy, and non-intuitive to use - Hardware is superb tho (Fisher-Price keyboard philosphy excluded).

Battery consumption
I said this even before I got the 9500 - it needs to last one hard working day, then I can charge it. I.e it's not allowed to die during the day, I don't mind charging it every night.
The 9500's battery life is fantastic - I charge mine every 2 or 3 days, depending on usage.

I sincerely hope that Nokia will come out with updated firmware that fixes some of the bugs and adds a few more features to the system. They've done so well with the hardware. I'm a bit sceptical about the ROAD in general, but if it were to emerge in a year or so, I would definately consider it - if it works as well as I'm hoping, I'd probably switch... 😊

.. Didn't really manage a slimmed down answer did I... 😉 :P 😃

I guess our experiences regarding slowness and buggyness, TheJoker, has to do with us using different machines with mine having a more recent firmware version (dated 22.12.2004), because I cannot relate at all to what you're saying. And if I remember correctly, even the 4.51 firmware released for the 9500 was dated earlier than my 9300's 4.53 firmware version.

Remember also, that it is relatively easy to do a prototype/concept device.

It is much harder to make a commercial quality consumer device.

It also quite hard to make and sell 10 000 devices of a particular type a month.

It is even harder to make and sell a 100 000 devices a month. With these numbers the making is easier than selling (with 10 000 devices it is probably pretty equal).

It is very hard to make and sell 1 000 000 devices a month (both making and selling is hard at this level).

And when you get to a situation where you need make and sell several millions or in the order of 10 or 10s of millions of devices a month, then we have very few players capable of that.

In this case, we're still somewhere between prototype/concept to even 1 single commercial quality device.

The Internet search engine caches and archives are littered with web pages by companies with seemingly great devices that never made it to market, or failed to sell due to quality or manufacturing problems (or purely by failure to actuall meet stated goals/expectations set for them), or simply because making them was so expensive that very few cared to buy them due to their price/cost.

And, also remember that it is very difficult to make lots of feature-rich devices from relatively expensive components cheaply or at least cost-effectively/profitably (display, keyboard, processor and memory + software costs are the key, but also sales, marketing and distribution costs).

And for this type of a market the number of potential buyers is still pretty small, so you need to have the channels to reach the buyers and also to support them somehow (at least the resellers/distributors/operators). Not at all easy for a new, small player to manage (or get into at all).

P.S. To get a relatively big and bulky device like the 9500 to actually vibrate, it would probably need a bigger vibrator (than on smaller phones), for which there may not be room in the design. Also, operating a bigger vibrator would mean that if it is active for calls and incoming messages, the power consumption required would be significant (with also the normal phone, big display, Bluetooth, WLAN, etc., competing for the same battery capacity).

I'm not a hardware person, but it might very well be, that with such a big vibrator, then also component tolerances and manufaturing demands would also result in a more expensive device (or if not done that way, something might really break with time due to the stress caused by such a vibration motor).

Have phoned Road last week. They want to develop a device where you can run linux PPc or even better palm. Costs about 1400 Euros.
Later on even UMTS and the bigger device with a higher resolution display.
The impression was very good, I think they dont wont to copy the commi. They want to create a perfect buisness solution, people like me have been waiting all the time for. They develop because there is really no good buisness phone on the marked. lets have a look when its on the marked...

mara_jade wrote:They want to create a perfect buisness solution

For €1400 it better be perfect! 😉

Seriously though, it will surely have its own set of problems, and at that price tag they will probably manage to sell like three of them.

Actually if they have only some problems they will be gone before they reach the market. But I think it is possible to handle such a device without so many bugs like the "mainstream" devices like nokia or the qtek...
The price is ok because they cant sell tons of devices. E.g. my second 6630 runs after 3 weeks not longer than 6h with "automatic" reboot. I will bring it back and when it will brake next time I'll take a P910i. But then no UMTS anymore 😡
Nokia sells millions of devices if some will be send back its cheaper then develope a "perfect" device - and customers wont buy something new if the old one is still working very well.

edit: just received the newsletter: under 1400 Euros they say.
Release: oct.2005
the tecnical questions of people were put together and soon be shown on the homepage

mara_jade wrote:Actually if they have only some problems they will be gone before they reach the market. But I think it is possible to handle such a device without so many bugs like the "mainstream" devices like nokia or the qtek...

Sorry to say, but you are living in a dream world if you think it won't have its own share of bugs and problems, ESPECIALLY since it is their first try. History has proven your theory about a first timer releasing a problem free device wrong. Look at the first PPC phone from HTC; the XDA I, the first smartphone from Nokia (not counting the 9210 as a smartphone); the 7650, the first smartphone from SE; the P800. Not to mention the Sendo X and the SX1. All these devices had problems, some more than others, but in each case their successors have shown huge improvement. History proves again and again that first-timers never get it right. You are much safer buying something from a "mainstream" company - as you call it, a company with experience such as Nokia and SE and even HTC.

My newest device; the 9300, is The Best smartphone/PDA-phone I've owned yet (both software and hardware-wise). It's not perfect, nothing ever is, but it is just as (or even more so) stable as my P900 - which was SE's second try and a great improvement over the P800. Just as my second S60 phone was much better than my first. Of course, the second (or third) line of a product isn't *always* a huge improvement, but in most cases the company learns from their mistakes.

The price is ok because they cant sell tons of devices.

The price is not OK because it is cheaper to buy a much more powerful notebook. Most people won't even spend €1400 on a decent computer system, much less on a PDA-phone. There are many examples of PDAs, and other products, that were ahead of their time, but never did well just because of the price being too high.

E.g. my second 6630 runs after 3 weeks not longer than 6h with "automatic" reboot.

And I'm sure there are plenty of people that are not having any problems with the same phone. You may have just been unlucky, or your problems are "user faults" (-installing warez/malware, deleting/altering system files etc.).

Nokia sells millions of devices if some will be send back its cheaper then develope a "perfect" device - and customers wont buy something new if the old one is still working very well.

You seriously need to wake up and smell the... 😊 Mass production means that there will always be 'duds' slipping out of the factory. Even if you were to make them all by hand, there would always be that one that escapes the quality control. Some companies have less 'duds' than others, but no company has a perfect production line. That's why we have warranties.

And customers will buy something new even if the old one works fine. For various reasons, like; a better screen, a nicer housing, more memory, new/more features etc. etc.