When a PC runs out of RAM it caches to disk. Slow, but effective. This is improved with Windows Vista by being able to cache to a flash pen drive, because flash memory is faster than a spinning disk. But hang on a minute, I have gigabytes of flash memory available on my N95: why doesn't it cache to that rather than closing down apps in the background to free up some RAM?
(PS This is a genuine question, not a rant.)
(PPS Don't suggest that I go out and buy the new N95 8GB with all its extra RAM because that's just not going to happen.)
I'd have thought a regular pen drive might be a cheaper way of buying flash memory than the N95. 😃
Umm... not sure if you're being genuinely or deliberately obtuse, but I meant why doesn't the N95 cache to its own flash memory.
neilhoskins wrote:Umm... not sure if you're being genuinely or deliberately obtuse, but I meant why doesn't the N95 cache to its own flash memory.
My thoughts too! With ever larger cards available its crazy that it doesn't.
s.
I think that is probably a question for Nokia rather than for anyone here.
It is just one example of Nokia not developing the N95 fully prior to launch... another is not being able to listen to the radio with a bluetooth headset, another is not implementing uPNP client functionality to allow streaming across wifi, another is not putting in a bigger battery... another is insufficient RAM...
I could go on.
My take on this is that it is considered not commercially sensible to fully develop a product before release. To do so would significantly increase time to market when they need to get returns on investment asap. Also it would not leave any upgrade path which would allow for further revenue generation through upgrades.
This is demonstrated by the launch of the N95 8GB so soon after launch of the original N95. I think this is just normal commercial practice now isn't it? They launch early even if the product isn't completely developed. Microsoft are great at this... they release software to market when it clearly isn't ready and then follow up with release after release after release... on each release there is extra revenue generated.
From a commercial point of view it might look like good practice but I believe that it so disinfranchises existing customers that it actually has a long-term, negative effect. For example, I for one will be far less keen to buy a new product from Nokia now after my experience with the N95.
I am really quite angry that Nokia released the N95 in a half-baked stage of development. Surely, the N95 should not have been launched when it was with the N95 8GB was so close behind. They should not have launched two products at all. The larger screen, revised slider buttons and larger capacity battery etc should have been on the first launch. I, and thousands of others, have each spent hundreds of pounds buying what we thought was the latest and best product in the marketplace only to be effectively kicked in the teeth by Nokia just a few weeks later with the launch of significant improvements.
It is the very people that most support Nokia, the "early adopters", that Nokia most hurt by taking this approach.
The N95 still is not the finished article still. It has so much more capability than Nokia has developed so look out for further upgraded versions and/or major firmware upgrades.
I agree with that. The same theory can be spread across many things, most noteably the xbox360 (see overheating problems).
Some of these things are so glaringly obvious it makes it clear it wasnt properly tested.
As a rule of thumb I stay away from the Nseries for this reason. Yes, in general they are very good phones, however they do have a much higher problem rate than any other series.
Aside from the battery, I find the memory issue amazing on the N95. How can you create a phone with so many functions and such small memory?
Nokia do need to pull their socks up as far as the Nseries are concerned.
If it wasnt for the fact I wanted GPS Id have got something from the E series. To me this is basiaclly like the old 6xxx series which were tradiationally business focussed, and in general very sturdy and reliable.
And always the best lookswise too.
Perhaps Im alone in this, but I find the upcoming E51 the best looking phone nokia have ever done. The luna etc are way to flashy for me.
If it wasnt for the GPS, Id swap my 6110 for the E51 in a flash.
neilhoskins wrote:When a PC runs out of RAM it caches to disk. Slow, but effective. This is improved with Windows Vista by being able to cache to a flash pen drive, because flash memory is faster than a spinning disk. But hang on a minute, I have gigabytes of flash memory available on my N95: why doesn't it cache to that rather than closing down apps in the background to free up some RAM?(PS This is a genuine question, not a rant.)
(PPS Don't suggest that I go out and buy the new N95 8GB with all its extra RAM because that's just not going to happen.)
Flash memory is far too slow to be used as Cache memory.
Perhaps it is better to think in terms of Swap File then? It probably isn't as slow as some hard drives that WinXP has to deal with, and most computers seem to work. Sandisk ultra2 cards are fast enough to buffer N95 best quality video, so why not?
s.
I think swap space is the right name here and the n95 has internal flash that theoretically could be used as swap space.
But adding just a little more ram to the device is probably a much better idea.
The point here is that Nokia could fix this issue with a firmware / software rethink. They are not likely to recall all the existing N95s and upgrade them!
I have only had my N95 a few weeks and don't want to change it, especially when there is so much scope within the hardware for better software functionality.
I might be susceptible at some time in the future to a N95 8Gb front panel as a paid for modification though, and extra ram chips. I am used to upgrading / rebuilding my PC when it needs it. If the N95 is "What computers have become" it should be upgradeable in terms of hardware and software not just sold to us and then forgotten as Nokia moves on to the next thing.
s.
sturgeon wrote:Perhaps it is better to think in terms of Swap File then? It probably isn't as slow as some hard drives that WinXP has to deal with, and most computers seem to work. Sandisk ultra2 cards are fast enough to buffer N95 best quality video, so why not?s.
RAM reads and writes at NanoSecond (nS) rates, which is 100s of times faster then modern hard drives (e.g. SATA 320 - 320Mb/Second). Flash memory is between 25 and 50 times slower than a SATA 320 drive
Whilst you could write a program to use Flash Memory as a pagefile, the results would not be acceptible in terms of response time - and if the apps were time critical - e.g. GPS Navigation - the results would become inaccurate - like when your missus navigates from the passenger seat and says "oh we should have turned off at that street we passed a 30 seconds ago...".
The N91 with it's internal 4Gb hard drive might have been a good prospect for a Pagefile app, but not the other N-Series handsets which rely totally on Flash Memory.
neilhoskins wrote:When a PC runs out of RAM it caches to disk. Slow, but effective. This is improved with Windows Vista by being able to cache to a flash pen drive, because flash memory is faster than a spinning disk. But hang on a minute, I have gigabytes of flash memory available on my N95: why doesn't it cache to that rather than closing down apps in the background to free up some RAM?(PS This is a genuine question, not a rant.)
(PPS Don't suggest that I go out and buy the new N95 8GB with all its extra RAM because that's just not going to happen.)
Dez, you are not getting the point here. Please read Neil's original post.
If it can be done in Vista, XP and Linux (I have a whole OS on a memory stick and several others on Live CDs - beat that for slowness that still works!) It can be done by Nokia. The code that needs speed can have RAM priority, code that doesn't goes to the swap file.
I am not going to buy another phone either. We are talking N95 here.
s.
dez_borders wrote:Flash memory is between 25 and 50 times slower than a SATA 320 drive<snips>
So what's this business about Vista being able to use a pen drive for caching because it's faster than caching to a hard drive? Am I misunderstanding what PCs do in this case?
sturgeon wrote:Dez, you are not getting the point here. Please read Neil's original post.If it can be done in Vista, XP and Linux (I have a whole OS on a memory stick and several others on Live CDs - beat that for slowness that still works!) It can be done by Nokia. The code that needs speed can have RAM priority, code that doesn't goes to the swap file.
I did read Neil's original post and I am sorry if my posts seem negative or to be missing the point. I simply do not believe any N95 owners will be happy with the very slow performance of any cache system that utilises the Memory Card or even the Internal Dynamic (flash) memory.
I also did not discuss the memory addressing limitations of 8/16/32 bit operating systems and chipsets.
Do we know for sure that the Symbian 9.1 OS and ARM processor can address significantly larger amounts of "Ram" - virtual or physical?
Also, you say the critical code can have RAM priority for speed.
Does the Symbian OS support automated splitting up of apps (like TomTom) into code and data chunks, or would the 3rd party app vendors need to re-complie all their apps to support paging in and out of parts of their apps?
I don't think it's as simple as you all believe, but I will be happy to be proved wrong if someone writes a working and speedy Cache/Pagefile application for our N95s. 😉
neilhoskins wrote:So what's this business about Vista being able to use a pen drive for caching because it's faster than caching to a hard drive? Am I misunderstanding what PCs do in this case?
While I don't pretend to be an expert I thought the point of having a hybrid drive (hard disk with some internal flash storage) in Vista was to speed up the boot process.
The idea is to cache the RAM to the flash when the laptop hybernates.
When the laptop then resumes from hybernation it resumes from flash. Presumably this is quicker than resuming from the hard-drive because the flash doesn't have to spin up to speed, have a read head move physically into position etc.
I think reading from flash memory is quick, but writing to it, as would be required in a memory paging utility, is slower than writing to magnetic disk.
Interesting stuff!
I think that a lot could be achieved with the current N95 hardware through software optimization.
I've just been looking at the AAS TV out stuff and it infers that the TV out would be vastly improved if it had VGA output capability instead of QVGA as at present. The N95 has VGA output for video playback, so this seems possible.
Perhaps we just need bigger buffers? (in other words some sort of more or less system managed dynamic swap file).
I really don't mind a 2 sec (+) pause whilst stuff gets pulled in from a slow old swap file if it means that the thing doesn't crash - or shut down most of my apps.
Wodger think ? (back to my beer)
s.
Looks like nokia is listening, check the OS 9.5 "demand paging" specs on the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian_os#Symbian_OS_9.5.
But is this a good thing or a cost saving thing?
ie: allows you to sell phones with less RAM, and full of the cheaper flash memory.
Its a two edged sword really imho. Performance vs Flexibility.
Just give me all the RAM I need, along with some fast/optimised programs and you can keep your swap/page file..
I dont ask much surely =)
ut.
Aint my point.
I have just bought a phone. It seems to have excellent hardware.
Aint goin to buy another one for a while.
Would like this one to work as well as is possible, as soon as possible, for as long as possible!
I am very pleased with it. But I know it could be a fair bit better with a few software tweaks.
s.
then pray for more memory saving tweaks in the next firmware.. or some third party miracle app.
cause thats all you gonna get on this n95. 😞
ut.
ut666 wrote:then pray for more memory saving tweaks in the next firmware.. or some third party miracle app.
cause thats all you gonna get on this n95. 😞ut.
Just wondering, do you think that there will be anymore firmware updates for the N95 now that the N95 8GB is here?