Krisse continues our direct head to head between the Nokia E90 and N810. What happens when Communicator meets Tablet? In part 2 of our comparison, we look at GPS/navigation, Applications, Web browsing and Multimedia. See also part 1 of this head to head.
Read on in the full article.
Nice ongoing review/comparison. Thanks.
I can't help thinking that on these two devices in particular, the user would be much better served if the D Pad did *not* have an execution button in its centre. On the E90, there is a perfectly accessible 'return' key below and with the N810, one's right thumb is going to hovering over the 'return' key as well. OK, so I do have fairly large hands, but I use the D Pad, as it is, very gingerly for fear of pressing the centre and on the E90 certainly 'downward' presses are in danger of getting the 'delete' and '@' keys. If there was a good indent in the centre of the silver ring I think one could use the D Pad more confidently 'resting' one's thumb in the middle and being firmer with directional presses. The D Pad on the outside of the E90 is bigger and so, although equally 'clustered' with other keys, for me at least, works significantly more effectively.
Tim
An idea which may be doable: an optional patch to deactivate the direction pad button and substitute it with Return as you suggested?
I can't help thinking that on these two devices in particular, the user would be much better served if the D Pad did *not* have an execution button in its centre.
This is probably a matter of taste really so there's no "right" way of doing things. The original E61 used a joystick which many people liked, but personally I found it annoying as it was physically painful to use for an extended period of time. The E61i had a d-pad instead, but that's subject to the problems you mentioned about accidentally pressing other buttons.
Going back to the comparison, the E90's internal d-pad felt more awkward to get used to than the N810's d-pad, probably because the E90's is slightly smaller.
Totally agree that the E90's external d-pad is best of all, but it would be difficult to fit it in a fold or slide keyboard as it sticks out so much.
We just need some clever programmer now!
On E61, I preferred the joystick as when it became the E61i I found it *very* difficult to press the keys next to the D Pad at all - was it the Contacts and Mail? Can't remember now and it's gone! So I preferred the joystick.
I agree about the N810 D Pad being less awkward than E90. You're right. But the greater reason for me is that there is lots of space around it.
Getting back to the comparison again again (!) I think that the N810 is *almost* as quick as the E90 for 'locking on' to GPS Sats. and maybe not as different as you're finding. Perhaps it's where I live that makes a difference. Or the view across the South Downs from my office window 😊
Tim
Getting back to the comparison again again (!) I think that the N810 is *almost* as quick as the E90 for 'locking on' to GPS Sats. and maybe not as different as you're finding.
I can only tell people what I saw, and my N810 took a lot longer to lock on than the E90, both indoors and outdoors.
Maybe the part of the world you're in has an effect, maybe the weather does too (it's been permanently cloudy and snowing here), but whatever it was the E90 clearly coped better with it.
There has been some talk that the N810 GPS seems to speed up if you use it a lot, as if it has some kind of learning process going on. Maybe that's the case with your N810?
The camera on the E90 is slow and sluggish. The N810 does have an FM radio application. It is now in version 1.5.7. So there is no tuner? Come to think of it the FM radio application is pretty quiet on the N810. The N800 has excellent built-in speakers. The FM radio on the Nokia N800 comes programmed with local stations by name for every city.
Webkit works beautifully. What the E90 needs:
Larger internal screen, reposition internal softkey buttons, find a better pointer solution than the internal D-pad - why not license IBM's Trackpoint pointer, larger external screen, Linux, tabbed browsing, ability to save web pages with pictures
What the N810 needs:
1) faster CPU - dual core
2) a Mozilla and wifi coprocessor - instead of 3D graphics, ARM should be working on specialized CPU features that will speed up Mozilla or Webkit web browsing
3) A clitoral trackpoint or similar pointing device to get rid of the space-wasting D-pad and make more room for bigger keys on the keyboard
4) Portrait mode vertical orientation instant flip
5) When the time is right: Google Gears, high-end camera, HD video camera, tabbed browsing, more offline browsing features, two SDHC slots
6) The RSS Reader erases headlines after you have scrolled through them. There is a Read Later checkbox but I would like the option to keep all feeds until I say to erase them. Full-text RSS articles are a good solution for offline browsing. Prepaid GPRS data rates are priced too high even for a Saudi prince so the telephony features of the E90 are useless. In Europe the cost is as much as 20 000 Euros per Gigabyte. And until the cost comes down to a low prepaid flat rate like 300 Euros per month for unlimited GPRS data there is no need to talk about anything faster than GPRS. The fact that you can buy a phone without a contract is Nokia's major advantage over Apple but this advantage is negated by the fact that there are no reasonable prepaid GPRS flat rate unlimited access plans. I am not asking for fantastic Teledesic at 720Mbps, although that would be useful. Perfectly good GPRS at 64+ kbps would be fine. Even at that speed the GPRS is still faster than the CPU of most phones.
7) Ability to update OS without a PC
The N810 is one of the greatest computers of all time but sluggish downloading of web sites makes it less than an executive tool. Any corporation can easily port the wealth of Linux and Unix applications to the N810 so business software is not a problem. The form-factor is very small but to suck down big web sites without getting stuck, it needs more horsepower. One option is to download the web sites on a Macbook Air and then use bluetooth to send them over but this requires some workarounds. The battery life on the N810 is too long and the form factor is nice although the keyboard could be bigger. The built-in maps are far more useful than having to download maps on the fly like the E90. Do you know how much it costs to spend a day downloading maps on the fly? One could buy a yacht and a private jet and still have enough money left over for a live sherpa navigator.
One of the annoying features of laptop computers is the built-in fan. With 10 Nokia N810s and a couple of N800s, one should be able to replace the laptop with a quieter solution.
The iPod Touch does not allow offline browsing of more than one or two pages. Nokia offers saving web pages and bigger screens and a physical keyboard. But Apple isn't wasting time piddling around with Symbian. Apple is catching up quickly and their developer's kit will be out soon. The purchase of Trolltech is a clever move but Nokia needs to get their Linux devices into gear and into the fast lane. Surfing the web on a handheld internet tablet should be as fast and efficient as surfing the web on a Macbook Air.
The camera on the E90 is slow and sluggish.
Compared to what?
This is a comparison of the N810 and E90, and the E90's camera is far better than the N810's in every way.
The N810 does have an FM radio application. It is now in version 1.5.7. So there is no tuner?
You can install the application but nothing happens when you use it because there is no FM hardware for it to access.
The N800 has excellent built-in speakers. The FM radio on the Nokia N800 comes programmed with local stations by name for every city.
Yes, I agree, the FM radio on the N800 is great, as are its speakers.
1) faster CPU - dual core
If you put a faster CPU the battery life will be severely eroded, which ruins the point of having a pocket-sized device.
They only removed the speed cap on the N800 when OS 2008 came out because OS 2008 is much better at conserving power in other ways.
3) A clitoral trackpoint or similar pointing device
Have to say, I've never heard the word "clitoral" used in quite that context.
If you mean a mini-joystick, I would be completely against it because the one on my E61 is literally painful to use.
In Europe the cost is as much as 20 000 Euros per Gigabyte.
Are you the same person who claimed it was 10,000 euros per megabyte?
Even 20 euros per megabyte is pushing it, here in Finland the most you'd pay is 1 euro per megabyte, and 10 euros a month gets you unlimited access.
And until the cost comes down to a low prepaid flat rate like 300 Euros per month for unlimited GPRS data
Erm... the cost is already way, way below that. Are you sure you mean Euros, or are you confusing it with another currency?
7) Ability to update OS without a PC
I'd definitely appreciate this one, and in a way you can do this already as you can boot from a memory card.
The built-in maps are far more useful than having to download maps on the fly like the E90.
You can actually download the maps to a PC and transfer them to the E90.
Surfing the web on a handheld internet tablet should be as fast and efficient as surfing the web on a Macbook Air.
You're making the mistake of thinking that pocket-sized gadgets should do as much as laptops or desktop PCs.
Pocket-sized devices will never, EVER catch up with laptops or desktops because technology will always allow larger devices to do more.
The point of a tablet is not to compete with current laptops, the point is to compete with other pocket-sized devices, and to have a good battery life and a reasonable price tag.
Concerning the GPRS prices.
AFAIK, flatrate in Germany costs from 25 to 50 Euros/month depending on the operator.
T-com offers unlimited HSDPA/HSUPA option for 50 euros/month.
O2 does not have any HSDPA, but GPRS/UMTS is availible for 25 Euros/month only. 5Gb limitation per month. 0.5 Euro each additional Mb.
Where did you get your numbers?
It's an interesting comparison - especially as it brings the whole 1 box/2 boxes debate back up again. With the E90, I sometimes wish I could break the phone away from the rest of the stuff, and have 2 boxes temporarily. This is especially important when you are on the phone and someone asks whether day x is free - you try to remember, but your phone is also your diary, and in use!
On the other hand, the N810 is no smartphone replacement when it comes to the PDA functions. Nokia really need to start looking at the device-to-device syncing problems they're creating when they start diverging devices - content copier doesn't cut it.
What would be really nice is if all of their phones etc. could network themselves locally and exchange calendar data or free time, and thus make appointment setting a pain free process. Or maybe I should just go back to a filofax and a dumb phone...
Tom
Why dont you consider a smartphone in addition to your E90?
Just E51 for example.
next year.. Tablets like this will drop off the market quickly when next commies aquire touch screen input.
It's gonna happen soon..
next year.. Tablets like this will drop off the market quickly when next commies aquire touch screen input. It's gonna happen soon..
Even if you added touchscreens, the S60 interface and application ecosystem are completely different to Maemo. They are aimed at totally different audiences, with the tablets oriented around internet use while the communicators are oriented around business use. There's also the difference in price: the E90 launched for 900 euros while the N810 launched for 400 euros.
If there is internal competition for the tablets it's going to come from ordinary S60 phones getting larger screens and touchscreens, but even then they'd look and feel very different.
On the other hand, the N810 is no smartphone replacement when it comes to the PDA functions.
I agree on the native applications there isn't much PDA/PIM stuff for the tablet (at least not yet), and mentioned this as one of the drawbacks of the tablet.
However, the tablet's very good browser and touchscreen means you can use web-based calendars etc much more easily than on a smartphone, and the beauty of these is that they are the same calendar whether you access them on a mobile device or a PC. They don't require any syncing at all because they're the same data on the same server.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a viable replacement for PDA/PIM stuff right now, but it might well be in the future as more and more places get cheap fast internet access. That's possibly why Nokia is developing both app-centric smartphones and web-centric tablets, so it has both options covered whatever the future brings.
Why dont you consider a smartphone in addition to your E90?
Just E51 for example.
Yes, really good point. This is the point that many people miss.
Smartphones such as the 6120 or E51 are so small and cheap (about 200 to 300 euros sim-free) that it's perfectly plausible to buy the N810 and a 6120/E51 instead of an E90, because the total cost would be the same in either case.
At least one phone network operator here in Finland does actually offer a phone and internet tablet package for precisely the above reason.
Why dont you consider a smartphone in addition to your E90?
Just E51 for example.
Smartphones such as the 6120 or E51 are so small and cheap (about 200 to 300 euros sim-free) that it's perfectly plausible to buy the N810 and a 6120/E51 instead of an E90, because the total cost would be the same in either case.
The syncing issue is really the clincher for me at the moment. Always connected devices, although the data is always up-to-date, have very short lives. Google want us to all be connected like this, and you can see this in their Gmail app (it gets its data from the server, and never stores anything locally), but sometimes we're going to be out of contact, and need some data stored locally. On the other hand, we need to keep our data backed up in case we lose a device, and this is where I really get wound up. Things never sync perfectly, and I'm forever deleting duplicate entries or re-defining my speed dials because something isn't quite right.
Don't get me wrong, I like google's idea of keeping everything stored on the internet and easily sharable (although they could use a lesson in privacy) but at the same time, we don't all have flat-rate data plans and ubiquitous 3.5G connections. I really like the idea of the sidekick and it's online storage idea, and I just wonder why Nokia never got in on this. It's a unique selling point, it's genuinely useful and it just works (now *there's* and idea!). Carphone warehouse even sell themselves on backing up your address book, because real, non-techy people often lose their phones and don't keep any other list of numbers. "Never lose your data" used to be a mantra, yet it's now completely possible, and would free smartphones from desktop computers.
I shall stop ranting about pet peeves now, and watch QI. 😃
The syncing issue is really the clincher for me at the moment. Always connected devices, although the data is always up-to-date, have very short lives. Google want us to all be connected like this, and you can see this in their Gmail app (it gets its data from the server, and never stores anything locally), but sometimes we're going to be out of contact, and need some data stored locally.
Don't get me wrong, I like google's idea of keeping everything stored on the internet and easily sharable (although they could use a lesson in privacy) but at the same time, we don't all have flat-rate data plans and ubiquitous 3.5G connections.
I totally agree it's impractical for many people at the moment, you can't always get a signal and if you do it may be very expensive to access, but in the future things may be different. All wireless networks now provide much wider, faster and cheaper coverage than they used to, and that trend will probably continue.
When mobile phones first began people complained about the huge gaps in the networks which seemed to be based around cities and towns, but it's now becoming increasingly difficult to find gaps even in the countryside.
Here in Finland you can row out into the middle of a lake in the middle of nowhere, and you can surf the internet through a mobile phone connection that costs less per month than home broadband. That kind of connectivity was unimaginable 10 or 20 years ago, and in another 10 or 20 years the world may be unbelievably connected. (Even uninhabited deserts already have some kind of connection through satellite phones.)
It's not just Google talking this way either, the idea of online apps pre-dates their existence and first came up when Java appeared. People thought that they'd be able to do all their apps through Java on websites, and Microsoft started getting terrified that the operating systems of computers would become irrelevant. That never happened because Java in the 1990s was cumbersome and slow, it was never a serious rival to native applications.
Now though, web apps are a lot more slick and reliable. I'm not saying they are better than PC software, just that for many people they may be good enough.
When mobile phones first began people complained about the huge gaps in the networks which seemed to be based around cities and towns, but it's now becoming increasingly difficult to find gaps even in the countryside.
I think it's interesting that you make that point, because that was really the limiting factor in the uptake of mobile phones for casual use (and still is the barrier for uptake in the USA!). The similar problem - lack of mobile internet - is what is holding devices like the N810 back. Microsoft and Amazon both back a similar form factor with UMPCs and the Kindle, respectively.
I think (and hope!) that we'll see these sorts of "internet appliance" start to break into the mainstream. Big screens, responsive interfaces and long battery life have only really become possible in such small devices recently, and I think that it is a new form factor that deserves success, if only because it could be really useful to so many people.
Once again I must push for E90.
You�re absolutely right about E90�s target group being business (but don�t forget phone geeks too 😉
However, major upgrades are needed in N8xx series eg. camera & video recording before it can be called a true portable multimedia device. The other attributes are already on the market in other devices.
Like you pointed out. E90 is a multimedia player, qwerty pda, gps, camcorder, camera, and smartphone(!) with a superb screen (4"😉, one of the biggest and best compared to iphone 3.5" & N95 8Gb 2.8". And all in one.
I believe the cost of the devices it replaces makes up for the price.
And as you and someone also said, buying 2 devices or E90 on contract makes both alternatives cheaper. Although having said that.. N800�s under 200� price tag here at the Northpole is a great deal. When N810�s price comes down it�ll be worth dragging around with my brick... maybe. Well actually that would be wasteful.
If you don�t have an E90 then N810�s worth exploring. Or if you�re very well off and have pockets to spare 😉
Btw. The story is very informative. And the comparisions well done.
Thanks!
However, major upgrades are needed in N8xx series eg. camera & video recording before it can be called a true portable multimedia device.
If you do use a tablet on the move then you have to have a phone with it for the internet connection, so the phone can also handle all the camerawork. Even lower-end phones nowadays come with a surprisingly good camera, for example the 5300 has a 1.3mp and costs about 140 euros sim-free.
If you set the phone and tablet as trusted Bluetooth devices, you can access all of the phone's files (including photos and videos) just as if they were present on the tablet. The phone actually appears as a drive in the tablet's file manager. As soon as you take a picture on your phone's camera, you can access that picture on your tablet.
In effect, a paired tablet and phone are the same device, they just happen to be in two physical pieces.
I totally agree the N810's camera is no competition at all for a phone's camera, and said so in the article with pretty strong language.
But if you use the N810 in combination with a phone or smartphone, the tablet is actually darn good at handling multimedia, partly because photos and videos look extremely good on the N810's huge sharp screen (the E90 is almost as huge but most will use smaller phones). Also, the N810's excellent browser makes it very easy to get those photos and videos onto the web without having to use any unfamiliar apps or interfaces. The process is exactly the same as uploading from your PC.
Like you pointed out. E90 is a multimedia player, qwerty pda, gps, camcorder, camera, and smartphone(!) with a superb screen (4"😉, one of the biggest and best compared to iphone 3.5" & N95 8Gb 2.8". And all in one.
I believe the cost of the devices it replaces makes up for the price.
If you want all or most of those in one package, then yes the E90 is definitely the one to go for, and the large screen means you get a lot more value out of features like videos, photos and the web than you do with normal-sized smartphones. I also rate the E90's GPS much more highly than the N810's, it's far far quicker to lock on and Nokia Maps provides more free services including route-planning.
Another great thing about the the E90 is that it does an excellent job of combining a one-handed smartphone on the outside with a large-screen smartphone on the inside. No one could possibly complain it's cumbersome to do texts on an E90 as they often do for other large-screen devices.
However, if your main priority is access to internet services, the N810 does do this much better than any phone or PDA. If you are okay with carrying two devices and you want the best pocket-sized web browser, then you'd probably be best off with a tablet and phone.
Neither device is better than the other because their usefulness depends entirely on what your particular priorities are. I know many people who would reject both because their priority is having as small a device as possible, so they'd probably prefer an E51 or 6120.
Btw. The story is very informative. And the comparisions well done.
Thanks! 😊
I just want to emphasise these articles aren't really about E90 vs N810. Devices are meant to be useful, and the wrong device is the one that doesn't fit your own needs.
These articles are meant to be a comparison of how one company can produce two very different devices with very different strengths and weaknesses.
I was wondering if the N810 provides a command line (bash or something else)?
Basically how much direct access will one have to the host OS itself? users, services, shells,files,utilities, scripting??
I am a tech guy operating in a primarily Linux based environment.
Right now I have got everything I need to connect and work with my servers from anywhere, installed on my E90 (Putty, Midpssh, SIC!FTP, Mocha Telnet, Vnc Viewer....).
But carrying around a personal copy of Linux in a pocket sized device would be a truly novel and satisfying experience.
To be honest, I haven't done any reading up on Maemo yet (where these questions would probably answered), but if anyone could confirm these, I would really appreciate it.
Gary - yes you can get a command line. I'm not a techie at all so won't go into detail but there's a website called internettablettalk.com that does and PenguinBaiter has hack to port KDE (+KOffice) to the device. There are some hidden/protected/secure bits of Maemo, I understand.
Krisse - thanks for these articles, really interesting and helpful if (like me) you are thinking of buying one of these. I'm going to go for the n810 because I just can't live with the size of the E90 for a day-to-day phone.
It strikes me that buyers might be better off thinking of the n810 as a mini-computer rather than a personal media player or extension of their phone. There are easier to use and smaller dedicated PMPs and phones that do the integration already on Symbian, OSX and WinMob platforms - although integration brings compromise and it's a personal choice how much of that you can live with.
It seems to me that the real value of the n810 lies in its flexibility but that that flexibility requires a commitment from the user to get the most out of it (i.e. a desire to find your way around the Linux communities).
@Gary,
I'm a linux sysadmin, and I use my N810 for exactly that. It has xterm built in, and from that you can apt-get install ssh for example. The slide out keyboard even has a ctrl key.
There aren't as many standard linux apps ported over yet as I'd like, but many are in the process. Finding out what is available is a little bit of a slog, as you have to search a number of repositories, and some are N800 compatible only (again, so far). But I love my Linux-in-a pocket.
I also second the bluetooth-to-smartphone use as being one fully featured device in two parts.
S
thanku for your concern