Why S60's Touch demo DIDN'T suck...

I totally agree, and I'd like to add that I'm getting more and more bored reading iPhone guys complaining that the X new device doesn't come even near to the iPhone's neatness. I've heard this about the S60 Touch, heard the same about Android preview, and I'm so sick of it. The iPhone is not a smartphone, but a multimedia-oriented phone! Yes, it has a large touchscreen display with one of the coolest interface and whatever, but where's the point of constatly blasting devices that aren't even in the same league as the iPhone because "they are newer than the iPhone, and still they look like crap compared to it"?!? Have you ever compared a Ferrari against an Hummer for God's sake?!? "Yeah, my Ferrari is just so neat and goes as fast as a bullet!", wonder how would you be doing into the wild outskirts with your sweet Ferrari: that's simple, with a Ferrari you won't get out of the road, and with an Hummer you're not gonna win any racing championships.
That's it, I'm sorry if I've been too rude...

Face up to it, outside the circles 'we' move in, S60 is largely derided. Personally I put up with it, but every so often I ask myself why I'm getting asked for the thousandth time which access point I want to use, and why I have to pay �20 for a decent add-on calendar, and why are realplayer streams in 'gallery' rather than 'media'. I really hope that S60 aren't putting a lot of effort into this touch business at the expense of improving the existing interface.

S60 does need to move forward quickly I agree neilhoskins. However, I find it a very nice balance between a hardware-specific OS like that on the iPhone and a totally multi-hardware OS like XP or even WM. I have often wondered how the N82 hardware and software would be in a Nokia N810 form-factor. Apart from the ultra-slow S60 browser (why?) I think it would be a far better experience. Mind you, that's not saying much.

Back to the point though, I would be happy if Nokia made their touch software an overlay UI. To be honest, I can't see them having the time to redesign all apps for touch so we're going to be in the same situation. as with the overlay on the Sony Xperia, HTC's overlay UI and Origami Experience for Vista UMPCs. It will look good but when you get to work, it will be that same old interface. Its a great marketing trick!

Apple, having a single hardware platform, were able to build a software package that was touch-friendly all the way through but I don't think that's possible with S60. It supports too many different screen and hardware configurations.

Steve. (Chippy - UMPCPortal/Carrypad)

neilhoskins wrote:
> ...f why I'm getting asked for the thousandth time which access point I want to use

I recommend trying devicescape.

Max.

Face up to it, outside the circles 'we' move in, S60 is largely derided.

If that's the case, why has S60 sold over 150 million phones and continues to outsell all its rivals combined?

I think you're just looking at the narrow circles of mainly American tech blogs. Step into the real world and S60 is actually selling in large numbers while the iPhone continues to just show potential.

I'm not saying I personally like all of S60's features, but what I am saying is that Nokia would be crazy to completely throw away an interface which is far, far more popular than any other smartphone interface. If they tear it up and start again from scratch, they'd be throwing away a lot of loyal customers who are used to the way S60 works.

If you want to see Nokia's take on a completely new touchscreen interface, take a look at their internet tablets.

krisse wrote:...S60... far more popular than any other smartphone interface.

Did you mean *populous*?

Did you mean *populous*?

Popular as in "more people buy S60 than any other smartphone". If you sell the most, then your product is the most popular.

Populous refers to the population within a certain area, rather than the number of people who choose a particular option.

At the end of the day phone makers are in the business to sell phones. The opinions of enthusiasts aren't anywhere near as significant as which phones people actually buy. It's the sales numbers that count, and you'll only see radical changes to a product if its sales slow down.

krisse wrote:Popular as in "more people buy S60 than any other smartphone". If you sell the most, then your product is the most popular.

I guess 'populous' shares a meaning with *one* of the uses of 'popular'[1], but I don't think that just because something is oft bought that people actually like it.

I recall a survey of the car owners. IINM, the Ford Escort was the most populous (1/100) and least popular (100/100). People said they bought it because it was easier to repair (others said that they prefered cars they didn't need to repair in the first place). The Toyota Corolla was 1/100 in popularity, IINM.

I think some people like to make similar comparisons with Microsoft Windows. "There really isn't a lot of choice".

But anyway...

[1] number '4' on http://www.answers.com/popular&r=67, though that references a US dictionary so isn't strictly English.

davidmaxwaterma wrote:I guess 'populous' shares a meaning with *one* of the uses of 'popular'[1], but I don't think that just because something is oft bought that people actually like it.

So you're saying that S60 has sold more than any other smartphone platform for the past five years despite people not liking it?

Are people being hypnotised?

Or do people just prefer S60 to the alternatives?

I recall a survey of the car owners. IINM, the Ford Escort was the most populous (1/100) and least popular (100/100).

I think you're confusing satisfaction with popularity.

People can be satisfied with all the alternatives, or dissatisfied with all the alternatives, but there will always be a particular alternative that is most popular.

Popular means how many people choose something, satisfaction means how happy an individual is with that choice after they've experienced it.

When Al Gore received more votes than anyone else in the 2000 US elections, he was said to have won "the popular vote", even though the vote didn't measure satisfaction at all.

In any case, this is all irrelevant because like I said before the only thing that counts at the end of the day is which product people actually buy. Surveys are just surveys, sales are actual money.

It's a bit like coca-cola, that's been out-selling all other colas for goodness-knows-how-long. A lot of taste tests show people prefer coke's rivals, but the one time coca-cola did try to alter their formula to be more like their rivals, it was a commercial disaster. In the end all that coke cares about is whether people buy coke, not whether they score well in taste tests.

I think some people like to make similar comparisons with Microsoft Windows. "There really isn't a lot of choice".

Not a fair comparison at all, because there's nothing locking people into using S60 in the way there is with Windows. If you don't like S60, what is stopping you buying some other kind of smartphone?

Many items of third party software simply aren't available for Mac or Linux, so people (including myself) are often forced to use Windows. This isn't the case with S60.

Most S60 owners don't buy third party software at all, and even if they do it's almost certainly available on other smartphone platforms as well, so they could very easily switch to (for example) Windows Mobile if they wanted. In fact I believe Windows Mobile actually has more third party software support than S60 (you can even get Nokia Maps on Windows Mobile).

There's no reason to buy an S60 phone other than that you want that S60 phone.

I'm not saying this makes S60 a good interface, what I am saying is that companies do things for sales and profits, and if sales and profits stay high then they will carry on doing whatever they're doing. If you want to change the way a company does things, you have to vote with your wallet.

There's due to be a new generation of games consoles appearing in a couple of years time. I bet they will all have Wii-style motion controllers because console gamers have voted with their wallets for the Wii, despite all the criticism it received from "traditional" gamers who were unhappy with its lower-tech graphics and casual gameplay.

krisse wrote:So you're saying that S60 has sold more than any other smartphone platform for the past five years despite people not liking it?

Are people being hypnotised?

Or do people just prefer S60 to the alternatives?

I think you're confusing satisfaction with popularity.

Never heard of a 'popularity contest'. It isn't to do with how many of a person there are, it's how many people like that person.

People can be satisfied with all the alternatives, or dissatisfied with all the alternatives, but there will always be a particular alternative that is most popular.

Popular means how many people choose something, satisfaction means how happy an individual is with that choice after they've experienced it.

Unless you can show me anything other than statistics to show that people actually like what they've bought....a satisfaction survey

When Al Gore received more votes than anyone else in the 2000 US elections, he was said to have won "the popular vote".

Not a fair comparison at all, because there's nothing locking people into using S60 in the way there is with Windows.

Most S60 owners don't buy third party software, and even if they do it's almost certainly available on other smartphone platforms as well.
There's no reason to buy an S60 phone other than that you want that S60 phone.

Fair enough, comparisons with iPhone are inevitable these days - but shouldn't the comparison be with UIQ - that's touchscreen Symbian already.

Well, it's not as bad, for sure, but it's definitely similar (IMO).

What, exactly, locks people into using S60 instead of Windows Mobile, or Linux, or the iPhone?

I don't think there's anything to stop you changing from S60 to another kind of smartphone.

Not true, since some of the meanings of 'popularity' are to do with satisfaction. If there were a word 'satisfatority', then that might be less ambiguous than 'popularity' too; just like using the word 'populous' is less ambiguous than 'popularity' when used to mean 'more people have it'.

I really really really don't want to get into an argument over this because it's an argument over langauge, not smartphones. Let's get back to smartphones.

Let me put this in an unambiguous way: S60 phones sell more than all other smartphones, and the market share of S60 phones is actually higher than Nokia's market share as a whole. (Nokia has 40% of the general phone market, and 50% of the smartphone market.)

In other words, S60 phones are selling really really well. No smartphone platform has ever sold as well as this, and perhaps no smartphone platform will ever sell as well as this. In sales terms, this might be as good as it gets for a smartphone manufacturer.

If that situation stays the same for year after year, which has been the case so far, there's not really any incentive for Nokia to make radical changes to S60.

Opinion pieces seem to very rarely acknowledge this, and I think the problem is particularly bad in America because S60 phones don't sell well there, so American bloggers/journalists forget how well S60 phones sell globally.

davidmaxwaterma wrote:neilhoskins wrote:
> ...f why I'm getting asked for the thousandth time which access point I want to use

I recommend trying devicescape.

Max.

Thanks. Looks good, tried it, doesn't work: keeps crashing. I'm no programmer, but I know the required technology is possible. The tiny Truphone app simply has a priority list of connections that it can use, and above a certain line in the list it will connect automatically. If it has trouble connecting, it surmises there may be a problem with that AP and offers to move it down the priority list for you. It's simple, intuitive, and reliable.

Just to throw my tuppence-worth into the above debate, I think that S60 smartphones have sold so well despite the shortcomings of S60, rather than because S60 is so good. There's also the factor that the layout makes some kind of sense to people who are already used to S40. S60 has some brilliant features that are, incredibly, lacking in other OSs, like pressing and holding the menu key for a task list, for example. But having PIM apps that aren't as good as the native ones in my old Psion really grates. Yes, Steve, I know your views on this, but surely smartphones should by now have the same functionality that we had in our organisers all those years ago.

Terry1100 wrote:Fair enough, comparisons with iPhone are inevitable these days - but shouldn't the comparison be with UIQ - that's touchscreen Symbian already.

Quite. When the UIs were originally split (was it 'pearl' and 'oyster' or some bloody thing?) they were intended to be complimentary, not competitive. If Nokia want to sell touch-screen phones, why not put UIQ on them?

I have no loyalties or preferences. The reason that I have an S60 phone is because it has certain useful features and it's small. The interface is way down the list because I don't even spend 1% of my time actually operating the phone with my fingers. I have one or 2 keypresses to the functions I want and that's it.

If the interface was the important thing and I was spending a lot of time playing with the interface because the interface is so pretty then I am doing something wrong. The phone UI is a way to get to the things I want. On my S60 phone it's a max of 2 key presses, which I can do without needing to even look at it. No other phone can offer that. None.

I see user interfaces being messed up all the time in the name of progress. In one of my cars the air con had up down buttons that I had to repeatedly press to get a number. In my present car I made sure I had a simple rotational control because it's better. Lower tech but better.
My friends care has a door that electrically opens itself. On my car I just open the door and get in while he is still waiting. My present laptop has done away with the manual sound volume controls I had on the last one. GRRRRRR!

I really hope Symbian don't sacrifice what they have now in terms of no bull simple working phones that are a tool and not a silly indulgence. I use my pnone to do the minimum I want and then I go and get some proper entertainment. I want to interact with people FFS, not gadgets. I think the iPhone interface and the fascination with it represents a serious backward step.

Now I am off to walk down some stairs. Of course the stairs will light up in sequence so I know where to put my feet for the next step, then when I get to the bottom they will flash a fancy pattern to tell me I have reached the end. Give me strength to carry on, please.

Nokia are clueless about UI design, they sell because the packed hardware. Recent mobile user experience satisfaction survey results were iPhone 77%, Rim 55%, Nokia 36% (probably they asked average people not symbian geeks who like to mess with the crap Nokia UI). Sticking touch behaviours to the Win 3.1-like S60 crap as an afterthought won't solve Nokia's problems. With the clean, polished UI approach and official 3rd party applications after the SDK release the iPhone will wipe its ass with the S60 handsets.

Macboy, what can be more geeky than getting excited about a phones user interface? Don't these mac people have relationships with people?

Macboy wrote:SNIP.

Oh, FFS, here we go. Somebody give me a shout when he's gone.

Which will be soon if he posts more pointless Mac fanboy posts.

Im with the 'I dont want a touchscreen' crowd. I like touch screens, but Im realistic.

For the phones I want, and the usability I need, I know that I cant have a touchscreen. It wont be tough enough, and the main problem? Size.

A phone any bigger than an N95 is pushing it. And a touchscreen not bigger than that is unusable for me, especially if I want to text.

Maybe a hybrid, with keypad too? Although Im sure I could use the keypad a heck of a lot faster. Then the touchscreen becomes a bit pointless, just something a bit flash rather than helping to use the phone.

Still, Id be interested to see what nokia comes up with. Id be more interested in movement controls (think shutup and flipsilent) which in a way, just adds more controls to a keypad, with little effort.

Mact*sser, or whatever your name is.

When Apple reach the level of sales that Nokia currently has, you may have a point. Until then, crowing about "when the SDK is released" (BTW, when is that actually going to happen?) is a bit pointless.

As has already been said, at this point, the iPhone is an extremely expensive one-trick pony; I'll admit that its one trick is a good one (I own an iPod Touch, so I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not sure you really do), but that's all it is. And even the interface has its limitations. For example: you start the YouTube app, do the search in portrait, watch the video in landscape, and have to go back to portrait to do another search. Was it too complicated to allow users to search in landscape?

And you try to configure the iPod Touch email app. It's actually impossible to do so, without syncing your IPT with Outlook. Nice one Apple.

And overall, the iPhone is no match for my current Nokia E90, or even my 3 year-old SE P910i for that matter.

I don't want a touch screen either. As a non-geek, all I want from my S60 phone are:

1. The ability to choose a default access point for both native and third party applications - this function can be added to the application manager, which currently just provides info, removes software, and changes installation settings.

2. HTML e-mail in the S60 e-mail client.

Otherwise I'm very happy with S60.

While we are here the iPhone SDK is going to be a java one like Android, not a low level c++ one like S60.

The major faults one the iPhone are:

Limited EDGE network, not even 3G let alone 3.5G. For me that is a crippling factor.

It's enormous. It won't disappear easily into a jeans pocket.

You have to hold it in one hand and poke it with the other. Quite embarassing in public. On a proper phone I can operate the push buttons without even taking the thing out of my pocket, then glance at the screen at the screen, put it away again and go back to being a human.

No thanks MacBoy. GeeksRU.

krisse wrote:
I really really really don't want to get into an argument over this because it's an argument over langauge, not smartphones. Let's get back to smartphones.

Let me put this in an unambiguous way

Well, Krisse and I discussed this a little offline and I have to admit, he's at least more correct, if not completely.

I had been looking for a word that could separate the 'approval' from the 'mass' of the meaning of the word 'popular', and I thought it was 'populous', but it seems not. In fact, it seems that 'popular' is more about the 'mass' than the 'approval', but that doesn't change the fact that it is also about the 'approval'...

So, I don't know what a better word would be, but I'm all ears.

Anyway, I'm wrong and he's right, if anyone cares 😊

Max.

Pointless drivel removed. If you want to post, make it a decent contribution

60things wrote:I don't want a touch screen either. As a non-geek, all I want from my S60 phone are:

1. The ability to choose a default access point for both native and third party applications - this function can be added to the application manager, which currently just provides info, removes software, and changes installation settings.

2. HTML e-mail in the S60 e-mail client.

Otherwise I'm very happy with S60.

1. Devicescape might help you there
2. I noticed that opening the html attachment will open it in the browser - does that help?

Max.

I think there is an exact way to decide if nokia smartphones sell despite or because of the s60 platform: have a look at software sales!

the only advantage of s60 over other phones is the possibility to install 3rd party symbian software. people who buy these software are people who buy the phones because of s60.
everybody else would buy the phone just to increase nokia's sales figures and not for what it is. they should not be included in statistics to show WHY s60 phones sell well. I don't care how many billion symbian phones are sold daily if the one I have bought is not working the way it should. I do start to feel that using today's phones includes too much of the old ways/ideas to be pushed down our throats. I'm no fan of the iPhone by a mile, but what it did showed exactly what should have been happening all the time: innovation. it may not work perfectly for everybody, but those who use it are happy to use it. I think the fact that the E90's menu looks more or less the same as the Nokia 5510 used to is not something to be proud of. the one feature missing from a 7650 compared to an N95 is the GPS. everything else is just faster and shinier on the younger device. I don't consider polishing old features as much of an achievement as the bringing out new ones.

the fact that people change their phones every time their contracts end happens not because the new device is so much better but because the one they picked 12/18 months ago turned out to be far less useful/flexible/smart then it seemed when it was new. I don't want to change my phones yearly. I want to be happy with the one I get for a looong time. but there is no phone on the market at the moment which is not "perfect except for one little thing". there is always "one little thing". and I would dismiss it as customer whining IF that one missing feature would NOT be present in another phone which has another one little thing.

I think I'm getting side tracked here. the point is: check the third party software sales to really see how good (meaning 'popular for the right reason'😉 symbian phones are. everything else is just play with the numbers.

Theres one thing Symbian phones will always have and thats a open source ui that apps can be made for.

The FM transmitters are a big hit, think about it, no more taking ipods into cars.
Builders and carpenters will get these new phones so they can listen to their own music on the radio while at work.

What i would really like to see is google earth running with the option to upload you geotaged photos to the exact location of where they were taken.

MWC sucked, i can't believe the amount of time its taking them to make the new touch s60 ui. Nokia have so much money if they really pushed it i think devlopers could have a working version within months, however they seem to be too tight to splash out on programmers.

This is why apple made that Iphone quickly and effeciently, they have a huge programming force making Mac OS and they were enticed to make a mobile version.

If nokia do not release a touch ui phone this year i will be moving from S60 to the Iphone.

Apple are the gods of making nice UI's for anything. Nokia will never compete and by the time they get a touch phone thats reasonable close to the Iphone, Apple will have made a new device possibly packing all the features of a nokia with that brillaint UI!

Unregistered wrote:Apple are the gods of making nice UI's for anything. Nokia will never compete and by the time they get a touch phone thats reasonable close to the Iphone, Apple will have made a new device possibly packing all the features of a nokia with that brillaint UI!

Yes, with a 1 minute battery life and a 12 inch form factor. Call it a MacBook Air.

Do you not get it yet? Not everybody wants gimmicks.