OFFICIAL - De-Branding Invalidates Nokia Warranty

depends on what is wrong with it though, if you brick it then your in trouble.

if it's a faulty slider, would they even check the firmware?

It didn't help that you changed your product code back to the Orange one.

Nokia repair centres will always try a frimware update first, if you had left your code as Euro1 the update would have worked, but as you changed it back to the orange one Phoenix would have tried to install the older firmware immediately bricking the phone.

That doesn't mean they would have fixed the screen, but they wouldn't have bricked the phone.

You can contact these guys

http://www.kingmobilephone.com

they can usually fix botched firmware upgrades, alternatively if you are still under contract phone Orange and tell them it just stopped working (don't mention anything else) and they may do a doorstop swop.

realistically then, its better to brick the phone yourself and send it in... rather than doing any messing with the firmware..

its a typical service provider fob off tho... as all the service providers f/w just removes or adds extras into the fw itself. Changing you code etc etc still works with the handset... yadda yadda yadda... Im sure you know the rest.

I guess this is where insurance comes in handy 😉

was it a nokia repair or an orange repair?

if the code was Euro1 and went back to orange they would have clocked straight away it was fiddled with.

Casperuk wrote:was it a nokia repair or an orange repair?

if the code was Euro1 and went back to orange they would have clocked straight away it was fiddled with.

It was a Nokia repair as I bought out my Orange contract in month 12 of 18 (bad reception in new office)

I was on Euro1 and (foolishly) changed it back to the original Orange code before sending to Nokia.

As per another user in this thread, if I had not changed the code back then the NCC would probably not have bricked the handset, although they probably wouldn't have fixed the fault either.

I consider it a lesson well learned... :con?

Ratkat wrote:It didn't help that you changed your product code back to the Orange one.

Nokia repair centres will always try a frimware update first, if you had left your code as Euro1 the update would have worked, but as you changed it back to the orange one Phoenix would have tried to install the older firmware immediately bricking the phone.

http://www.kingmobilephone.com

they can usually fix botched firmware upgrades, .

Thanks for the advice, and the recommendation. I will check out Kingmobile. 😉

I've sent my phone for repair through o2 3 times without bothering to change the firmware or product code back and they've fixed it everytime.. Only once they bothered to change the product code back for me.

L11 wrote:I've sent my phone for repair through o2 3 times without bothering to change the firmware or product code back and they've fixed it everytime.. Only once they bothered to change the product code back for me.

Yes, it appears I might have had better luck with a network repair, although that was not an option once I cancelled my contract. You live and learn.

I will probably send it for dead-phone flashing to kingmobilephone.com (£20 inc P&P) then find out how much it will cost for a paid repair of the screen fault..

by the service center .. I think they stuffed up and took the easy option ..

I do think it was a mistake to change your product code back since it was no longer an O2 "branded" device.

I would like to ask folks with experience of Phoenix whether that program can reflash "bricked" phones? - I've not used it.

Dez sending my solution to your problem via PM 😉

phoenix struggles with S60 dead phone flashes, although it copes with S40 phones like the 6280 just fine.
It will dead flash some S60 phones, depending on version you are using, but the version of phoenix widely available is a bit old for the latest devices.
All the revived S60 devices i have seen have been done using jaf or similar.

wow this sucks. i've read so many claims that debranding the phone does not void the warranty as long as an official nokia firmware is loaded onto the phone. so i would think the generic v21 firmware would be fine. now we all know at the expense of your troubles!! sorry

RogerPodacter wrote:wow this sucks. i've read so many claims that debranding the phone does not void the warranty as long as an official nokia firmware is loaded onto the phone. so i would think the generic v21 firmware would be fine. now we all know at the expense of your troubles!! sorry

Thanks for the sympathy. I am annoyed at myself for setting the code back to the original one, I thought I was doing the safest thing for warranty purposes, as I expected the NCC to check the code was correct.

Nokia NCC did stuff up by bricking my handset, but probably only because the automated NSU/Phoenix style tools tried to downgrade the FW to the current Orange FW because of my code reset.

I now have to choose between paying someone to try and dead-flash and repair the screen or sell it for spares/repairs on eBay and get a contract replacement (O2 Online offer the N95 free on �25 24-month tariff)

The important information for AAS members to learned from all this is:-

1. De-branding FW DOES invalidate the warranty (if the NCC checks)
2. Do NOT reset your product code to the original one after de-branding
3. NCC Engineers can tell the FW version even on a bricked phone

Hope this helps some of you avoid the same problems as me. :redface:

To a degree I disagree, though I hope I never have to follow through. If you have a screen fault, I think under European law you would have a strong case to argue that it would have to be fixed, as the software update would have nothing to do with the state of the screen. It's a similar argument I've used for a car that was remapped but developed a problem with brakes.

Since the rewritten product code didn't match the FW, they knew you'd be easy prey for repair denial because you were worried about invalidation.
If you'd have just left the proddy code as was, they'd prolly have repaired.

i will have to change my 2 back to EURO1 as i did the same with both and set them back to the o2 code.

the thing is, if you have opened the phone or even flashed the firmware then you have broken the T/C of the contract, don't have a leg to stand on.

Casperuk wrote:the thing is, if you have opened the phone or even flashed the firmware then you have broken the T/C of the contract, don't have a leg to stand on.

Maybe with Orange but not Nokia. If the screen was defective, the contract is irrelevant under consumer law.

chrsfrwll wrote:To a degree I disagree, though I hope I never have to follow through. If you have a screen fault, I think under European law you would have a strong case to argue that it would have to be fixed, as the software update would have nothing to do with the state of the screen. It's a similar argument I've used for a car that was remapped but developed a problem with brakes.

I am brand new to the forum today, I have a keen interest in consumer law and I'm in agreement with you.

Your example about remapping and faulty brakes is a good example.

Dez does in my opinion have a good argument under European law, UK law as well I suspect.

If the phone is faulty or has developed a hardware fault not due to any customizing an owner might have done then Nokia in my opinion should fix the defect under warranty.

The same goes for de-branding, while they may not fix it free under warranty, to refuse to fix it under European/UK consumer law might possibly be considered unfair under these laws.

Cars, Cell Phones, PCs are designed to me modified to one degree or another.

14all wrote:Dez does in my opinion have a good argument under European law, UK law as well I suspect.

If the phone is faulty or has developed a hardware fault not due to any customizing an owner might have done then Nokia in my opinion should fix the defect under warranty.

You seem to know what you are talking about re consumer law.
If you want to draft a letter and tell me where to send a complaint (presumably Nokia initially) then I am game for hassling them into a repair.

dez_borders wrote:You seem to know what you are talking about re consumer law.
If you want to draft a letter and tell me where to send a complaint (presumably Nokia initially) then I am game for hassling them into a repair.

All you really need is Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). Goods must be 1. As described, 2. Satisfactory quality and 3. Fit for purpose.

Edit- I would write more but I'm away on hol with only my N95. Do a Google of the inf I've given above. If using SoGA you'll need to go against Orange as they sold it.

chrsfrwll wrote:All you really need is Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). Goods must be 1. As described, 2. Satisfactory quality and 3. Fit for purpose.

Edit- I would write more but I'm away on hol with only my N95. Do a Google of the inf I've given above. If using SoGA you'll need to go against Orange as they sold it.

Seems somewhat unfair to go after Orange, they have not been involved.

No, but then they havent exactly been prompt in giving you decent firmware, which presumably is the whole reason you debranded in the first place.

Might even be a good incentive, if people can start claiming for this on the networks.

I do wonder though if they will simply say it was working fine beforehand, and that an upgrade didnt stop you from using your device. I.e. that it was fit for purpose.

seki wrote:by the service center .. I think they stuffed up and took the easy option ..

I do think it was a mistake to change your product code back since it was no longer an O2 "branded" device.

I would like to ask folks with experience of Phoenix whether that program can reflash "bricked" phones? - I've not used it.

Dez sending my solution to your problem via PM 😉

dez_borders wrote:Seems somewhat unfair to go after Orange, they have not been involved.

Hello Dez,

In this instance SoGA might not be able to help, you have shot yourself in the foot slightly by going direct to Nokia for a repair, ( if that is what you did ), under UK consumer law, unless directed by the seller, or you have informed them so or other specific circumstances, regardless of why the fault, you always go back to the vendor first if looking for a repair under a warranty.

My opinion is you simply write near identical letters in the first instance to both organisations explaining that nothing you did caused the hardware defect, regardless of anything else you might have done and you are amazed,--no outraged that a phone has been rendered useless by unfair T&C that seeks to limit your statuary rights under UK consumer law.

Quote any examples you have found on this thread to further your complaint.

Another one you might like to use is, it's a bit like buying a new car, under the warranty it states clearly any modifications of any kind will invalidate your vehicles warranty.

In a moment of artistic inspiration, 2 months later you paint your new car pink with spots.

Four months later your engine goes pear shape and while clearly it is an engine defect the vehicle manufacturer decline to do a repair or replace said engine under their modification clause in their T&Cs.

Your argument therefore, as I see it and it is similar to what Orange/Nokia are attempting, is both are limiting your right to redress because of an unfair T&C.

De-branding a phone unless the software upgrade has fried the internals somehow, should not, with in reason, put the phone, any item for that matter beyond repair because of a hardware defect.

Orange can deafly get then selves off the hook because of what I wrote earlier but in my opinion they are the softer target.

Nokia in my opinion are justified in charging you to re flash the phone to affect a repair, that is a " is it worth it decision" you will have to make if you get to that crossing.

Send identical letters to both organizations, see what response you get back.

I hold a similar view if you simply de-brand a phone via an unofficial software upgrade and it makes the phone useless.

If it can be repaired by re flashing, the vendor or manufacture, should do so and a reliance on any modification clause/T & C they might seek to impose to do otherwise, is unjust and should be argued

Again though, they would be perfectly entitled to charge for this repair.

I'm on my 4th N95 from 02 been de-branded every time i sent it back , and as always been repaired/replaced.

14all wrote:Your argument therefore, as I see it and it is similar to what Orange/Nokia are attempting, is both are limiting your right to redress because of an unfair T&C.

My confusion here is that I am no longer a customer of Orange, and I think (?) the Network only covers the 1st 12 months of warranty after sale, whereas Nokia are offering 24 months on the N95 in UK. I don't feel Orange is at fault or can be helpful at this stage.

I may write a letter along the lines you suggest to Nokia as their engineer 9inadvertently) bricked the handset. If I could get the handset booting again I can have the screen/screen cable replaced at cost for @ �29.99.

justnew wrote:I can confirm that I reflashed my brick N95 using phoenix with FW v21 , My N95 is using EURO1 code

Hi,

I tried this with no luck - using Phoenix 2007.x and the FW v21 pack on my laptop but I just get "waiting for USB port" (or similar text - I don't have my laptop with me at the time I write this).

The handset powers up for about 5 seconds, displays the 'Nokia' logo, then the screen fades out and the phone appears to have powered off. If I hold down the power button permanently, the vibrate goes about every 5 seconds and the screen stays lit but the USB port is still not found by Phoenix.

Which version of Phoenix did you use?
Did you use the Nokia Supplied DKU-2 cable or a 3rd party cable (with FBUS support)?

PM me if you wish. 😉

Dez

dez_borders wrote:My confusion here is that I am no longer a customer of Orange, and I think (?) the Network only covers the 1st 12 months of warranty after sale, whereas Nokia are offering 24 months on the N95 in UK. I don't feel Orange is at fault or can be helpful at this stage.

I may write a letter along the lines you suggest to Nokia as their engineer 9inadvertently) bricked the handset. If I could get the handset booting again I can have the screen/screen cable replaced at cost for @ £29.99.

I understand your confusion Dez, as I don't have all the details, I'm having to second guess you, if the phone is now out of warranty you would think Nokia are the best people, the only people you have recourse to but this isn't necessarily the case.

Unfortunately I am now a little out of my depth in knowledge in as much as when phones leave a factory do they leave with the likes of Orange, Vodafone, O2 software branding or do they leave the factory with generic software branding and over-written elsewhere?

To show my lack of understanding of terminology, what does bricking exactly mean?

Let me understand, after de-branding, your phone worked fine, then became defective because of a screen cable, is that correct? What is the sequence of events?

14all wrote:
To show my lack of understanding of terminology, what does bricking exactly mean?

Let me understand, after de-branding, your phone worked fine, then became defective because of a screen cable, is that correct? What is the sequence of events?

Bricking a phone is where a FW flash (upgrade, de-brand or attempted downgrade of firmware) fails, leaving the phone unbootable and the handset effectively becomes an expensive but useless "brick".

I got my handset on Orange in April 07 and very soon de-branded it to Generic EURO1 product to get VOIP enabled firmware. (I regularly upgraded FW using NSU and EURO-1 and ended up on V21 a few weeks ago).

The phone worked perfectly for just over a year then developed a screen problem where the screen would go black for 1 second out of every 5 then repeat the cycle every 5 seconds - research on forums indicated a relatively simple ribbon cable fault between the screen and motherboard.

Fearing NCC engineers would check the product code and realise I had de-branded, I changed the code back to the original Orange code using NSS and sent the handset back to Nokia for screen repair under 24 month warranty.

1 week later, the handset was returned to me and the delivery note stated "your phone has been repaired" - however it would no longer boot up and still the screen went black 1 second out of every 5.

I sent the phone back to Nokia, and it came back a week later this time with a letter indicating the handset was out of warranty because an unauthorised FW version had been detected by NCC engineers.

I believe the first time it went to Nokia, the engineer tried to re-flash the FW and as Orange dont support V21 the NSU program attempted to downgrade to an Orange FW variant, killing the handset.

Thats the way i see it, anyway.