Rafe on the Nokia N86 8MP

Great interview, and I agree with Rafe on many counts, including the technology used in the mechanical wide angle lens used in the N86, this compensates for the lack of Xenon, being able to produce clarification with low level lighting conditions, and this tied in with the 3rd Gen dual LED flash, many people need to not let the lack of Xenon put them off from buying this handset.

As Rafe correctly states, people who know their camera's, will appreciate what work, hardware, and software has gone into this device. I for one, at first was shocked to hear there was no Xenon present, however, after just basing my opinion on what i had seen initially, after reading, and watching more details about the technical specifications, and hardware used, I have an understanding now, that Xenon is not really needed, however, Im looking forward to the N86 being pitched against the N82, in a side by side controlled photo experiment, with exact situations, low light conditions etc, just to see if there really is any difference, or improvements between the two.

Don't swallow the marketing hype about the "3rd generation dual LED".

There is no way on earth that dual LEDs can ever be as good as xenon for photography.

Just as yourself this question: Why do none of the dedicated camera manufacturers use dual LED? The camera makers know their stuff more than nokia do and have dismissed dual LED as a viable alternative.

The N86 is no doubt a very nice package but by the time it appears it will already be almost year behind the competition. You could say it's too little way too late.

At the moment nokia seems to be taking one step forward (i.e. S60v5, 5800xm, N97) and two steps back (i.e. N79, N85, N96, N86 all re-hashed models and little variance in specs).

What nokia needs is to announce is an S60v5 phone with the N86's optics, xenon flash and possibly even an LED for the video light. It doesn't matter if the xenon makes it a bit fat at one end as the N82 wasn't exactly a fatty.

Nokia just has revealed the nokia flagship, cutting-edge Nokia 86!!, what the hell! I just bought N85 for 492 $ after long strenuous period of search and now nokia comes up with a new flagship 8 Mb cam phone just to correct the unbearable unfix able faults of Nokia N85, I advice not to follow Nokia misleading marketing strategy and go for another manufacturer.

Thanks Nokia!

What unbearable unfixable faults?

I don't think the N85 was ever a flagship camera phone, was it? I thought it had pretty much the same camera as the N96 (unlike the N82 which provided a xenon flash, or the N86 which provides higher resolution and improved optics).

The N85 still looks like a nice phone though, with that screen. I would have probably got one if my network had offered it when I upgraded - I still miss some of the features of the N95.

Handset manufacturers will always keep updating. The manufacturer of my latest handset has already announced a couple of handsets with better specs than mine.

well for unregistered, you said "don't swallow the marketing hype", but you demand a s60 5th ed. device, hmm you want a touch-screen device? hmmm ok then...

you said that there's no way on earth that dual led could compare to a xenon flash,
like once someone said that a cmos sensor couldn't compare to a ccd sensor, or like once someone said that a camera-phone couldn't compare to a DSC or even to a cam-recorder

then you asked why none of the dedicated sitll camera manufacturers use dual led, and you are right, but is becuase they are dedicated to stills, so then why you don't ask you, what the dedicated cam-recorder manufacturers use into their devices? i think most of the camera-phones try to merge this 2 concepts, but anyways i don't think is smart to say that led tecnology could ever compare to a xenon tecnology, it might not be the time but im sure some day the diferences between them will begin to disappear

well leaving that apart, i've to say that i think the n86 its just the n85's re-hash, remember the roadmap, it said that it will be a n85 with a 5mpx camera, may be they just upgrade that, and put the 8mpx camera, and a read that the name they called during the development was "n85 8mp", so i believe that "corolla" isn't out yet, or at least is what i want to believe XDD

I am also doubtful about the lack of Xenon. Lets await the (p)review.

The results so far, from the preview at www.mobile-review.com, are quite disappointing. The same aggressive sharpening as on the N82 (though I suppose you can switch that off there as well by setting it to 'soft'😉, but also some nasty smudging, I assume due to too much noise reduction. The N82 doesn't suffer from this at all.

We'll know soon enough how Xenon and "next gen" LED flashes compare, there will be lots and lots of sample photos available on many different phone review sites.

I wouldn't rely too much on previews based on prototypes, as the final production hardware and firmware can be quite different, and of course there will be firmware updates after release too.

I'm sure our own Steve Litchfield will be able to do a thorough comparison of the N82, N86, Omnia HD etc.

It would also be great to see comparison to between N86 and pocket camera(s). Something like Nikon's Coolpix products (around 90� in price) and/or equavalents from other camera manufacturers. Specswise the stuff inside N86 seems to make it the first camera phone that is roughly equavalent to stand alone cameras, albeit very basic ones. It would be great to see that kind of headup comparison.

@ numaxx...

Indeed, I suppose there IS mileage in people saying to me, "why don't you wait and see how the LED flash works..."

But I'm still gonna jump in with both feet and say, never, not possible, I don't beleive it will work as described either.

For two reasons... Firstly, as I stated on the N86 thread on the site, Flash is not about LEVEL/AMOUNT of light only, it's as much about natural DISPERSAL and SPREAD of light. The whole purpose of a flash is to provide scattered/dispersed ambient light, so as to illuminate the ENTIRE scene, not just the main subject.

Even if you somehow develop a new type of LED that provides enough light LEVEL, an LED is just way too TARGETTED or directed a type of light source - ask any professional photographer (which I am NOT).

Secondly, as already stated by "unregistered" and I fully agree.... I am all for innovation, and technologicial breakthroughs such as you mention.

But as he says, do you SERIOUSLY, seriously think for one minute, that if you can develop an LED based Flash that is AS GOOD ("close to" is not the same, does NOT cut it, and is NOT what we are talking about), then don't you think for one second, that every real Digital Camera manufacturer out there would be using it, without exception?

If you can develop an LED AS GOOD AS a true Xenon flash, but that both reduces battery consumption as a result of it being LED based, takes less (read almost zero) 'charge' time, and can also be used for Video Recording as a result, then why on earth would any Camera manufacturer NOT be using it...?

So ok, let's wait and see, for sure.

But I think we'll find here that Nokia have doen a grand job of IMPROVING on the LED based principal.

But not for one second EQUALLED a true Xenon Flash.

Otherwise, I look forward not to my next Nokia Phone with cool camera, but actually buying my shiny new Fuji FinePix or Canon Ixus (or whichever company you care to insert here) Camera, with super-dooper advanced LED instant response low battery drain flash unit built in...

Nah, when LED Flash is as good as true Xenon BURST Flash, for light quantity, AND light dispersal and spread, the real Camera companies will be the ones behind it, not a phone company, methinks.

So I WISH Nokia would just stick with Xenon until that day, and give us a TRUE N82 replacement - which this N86 device is NOT, for sure, as an all round camera concetric device....

Shadamehr, I think the reason we should wait to see what it's like is mainly because it would save a lot of arguments! 😊

Once we have the photos from the released product, that will end the debate right there, it will be obvious to everyone what the properties of the flash types are. Spin and hype would just disappear, because the photos themselves would tell us everything we need to know.

Tzer2 wrote:Shadamehr, I think the reason we should wait to see what it's like is mainly because it would save a lot of arguments! 😊

Once we have the photos from the released product, that will end the debate right there, it will be obvious to everyone what the properties of the flash types are. Spin and hype would just disappear, because the photos themselves would tell us everything we need to know.

Provided that they are true "real world" examples - not 'stage managed' best shots.

That's my worry here, and I think, the underlying reason this issue has become maybe more 'intense' shall we say, than others...

That the "N82/I take photos all the time, but use my PHONE to do it" brigade are incensed that Nokia have brought yet another none-Xenon Camera-centric device out, and we are still no further forward to a true N82 replacement (potentially)...

Whilst on the other hand, those in the other camp, excited by the new N86, have an almost "fan-boy" like love of it.

It's the first time that any intial thoughts or views of a device discussed on this site have seen so 'PR' hype supporting *lol*

(said humoursly, rest assured).

But everything written about this new N86 just feels too Nokia hype sided, more than I have ever seen for any previous device...

So maybe helping to fan the "N82 User Brigade" I mentioned earlier, into an equally strong, but opposite, angry reaction to it *lol*

I think, unlike your positive comments, for sure Tzer mate, that far from intial sample photos settling this debate, only good old Steve Litchfield's eventual, and thankfully inevitable real world test, will actually settle this debate.

So if you are reading this Steve... we want to see LOTS of night/low light condition shots taken using in... party shots... pub shots... outdoor shots of friends out drinking etc...

That's the time when a cameraPHONE really comes into it's own as the "can I get by with just one single device" category, or not.

Planned events, I can cater for by taking my real camera.

But in the examples I described above - spontaneous, inside pubs, clubs, restaurants, on the high street on a night time...

Can an LED Flash really cover those scenarios - that's what we are dying to see, for sure?

So plenty of those, from the N86, and from the N82 to compare, if you would be ever so kind to us Steve, in due course - that's when we will really see if it lives up to the hype or not...

So thanks Tzer, and here's hopefully thanking you in advance too Steve...

Rest assured that I'm as eager to put the N86 8MP through its paces against the N82 as the next person....!

Hopefully I'll have access to one before too long..... Hey, Rafe, pick me up one of the prototypes! 8-)

i'll begin with an apologize, in the first place, english is not my native language so there's a chances for missunderstandings

now shadamehr what i was trying to say wasn't that this "new led generation" could compare to a xenon flash, what i meant is that someday, that diferences will be gone, so 1 really didn't say that the n86 could be better that de n82 when it comes about flash

then you are right when you said that the led is too targetted, then you said if i or somone else could develop a led flash comparable to a xenon flash the DSC manufacturer will be using it, and i think yeah of course, the problem is that until now the led flash still hasn't developed to that level, but when the time comes, and someone can develop a led flash as good as a xenon flash, the DSC will be kept their eyes on that technology , cause i think we know allmost every benefits that the led flash delivers, the second question is almost the same answer when the time comes and if the led could be as good as xenon flash and still can use it to video recording, of course the the camera and camrecorders companies will use it, so i really don't get what was your point with that questions?

like i said before, de DSC are focused on stills, so thats the main reason they use xenon, cam-recorders are focused on video recording, so thats why they use other sources of light, but the mobile industry is trying to merge that 2, stills and video, thats why the commonly use led flash

i didn't say that nokia was delivering a xenon-like led flash and for last i also didn't say that nokia will deliver that led flash compareble toa xenon flash, i don't know who or when it will be deliver but i mostly sure that some day, that technology will exist

and i think we are agree when we say that de n86 is not n82 upgrade, like a i said i think "corolla" isnt out yet, but we have to wait to see if the variant code matches with the n85 rehash or matches with the corolla variant code, or neither of both XD

To Steve, and then to numaxx...

Thanks to you both for those replies... both helpful, both well made...

Cheers guys!

Actually I found this link where it says that 3rd gen dual-led flash or those with supercapacitors are more efficient and can provide brightness equaling or surpassing xenon...
here's the link

philipslumileds. com/pdfs/CS09-xenon_vs_LED_flash.pdf

just a n85 with 8mpx....taht's all....we will wait for real changes COROLLA and EITRI....