Quantifying the improvements in the Nokia N86's camera

I want to sell my n82 to buy a new phone but iam so confused between n85 or waiting for n86 so i want to know is the image from n86 is better than n85 that much and what is the features that n85 doesnt have and the n86 have?(dont include the megapixels because 2400-1900 is enough and more than enough)

Are the original photos available for comparison of noise?

I'm afraid you're totally mistaken about the variable aperture. The LOWER the f-number, the HIGHER the aperture, so as both lenses you are comparing have a minimum f:2.8, they are both similarly luminous. At the higher f-number, the lens will actually CLOSE, letting in LESS light, but giving greater depth of field.

The better captures are due to a better, more sensitive image sensor. Maybe it is larger, or better made, or both. Aperture has nothing to do, because in dark conditions, the 2.8 aperture was surely chosen.

You know what's tempting - having a xenon flash on the camera of the n86. Think of the results of that. I am sure its not that difficult.

well unregistered you are right and wrong, possibly "totally mistaken" 😉
You are right in that the lower the F-Stop more light is let in. in fact for each F-stop smaller double the light is available.

In this case, where you started to speculate on sensor sensitivity you were wrong.
The N82 has an f2.8 lens, the N86 has a f2.4-4.8. the N86 has a 1/2 stop more light available to it. this means 50% more.

assuming that shutter speeds were the same. A variable aperture, probably indicates a better shutter may be available as well? (by better i mean have a wider range than before). there will be 50% more light available for the sensor.

Thanks all, I've tweaked the text a little!

I'll be able to do a lot more, including understanding how all this hangs together when I actually GET an N86 of my own [looks meaningfully in Nokia's direction....] of course!

Steve

You could also involve the innov8 in the comparision. It would have given us a better understanding of larger optics and sensors

Nokiacraze wrote:You could also involve the innov8 in the comparision. It would have given us a better understanding of larger optics and sensors

Sorry, I had misread the numbers and thought both were f2.8. Still, your calculations are wrong: there is less than half a stop difference, and less than 50% extra light: (2.8/2.4)^2 = 1,36, so it is precisely 36% more luminous. I still believe the improvements have a lot to do with a better sensor. But what is important is that the improvements are there!

I have to agree. The final judgment on these high-res camera phones will be image quality. I don't give a crap if it's 30 megapixels if the images are grainy and washed out. I really want a good camera and a good phone, which isn't too hard considering the items they're shoving into phones these days..........😊

Sorry, I think the last 2 photos still demonstrate the obvious, despite clear improvements in the N86 optics, an LED flash of any sort is STILL no match for Xenon. And it won't be. Nokia can sell it how they like. They really will save themselves a lot of time, trouble and pain if they realise sooner than later that Xenon's are needed back again, on several phones. 6220 Classic proves you can have great optics, small handset size, cheap cost, great quality and a Xenon flash. LEDs are a FAIL, though it would be nice to have two for a video light.

Why don't Nokia listen to the experience and wisdom of users - EXPERIENCED users, not some in the street market research poll?

And anyone who wants to "upgrade" their N82 - Why? What for? Even the N97 has turned me off with it's LED flash.

Seriously Nokia, Xenon's the only way to go. Not on every handset, sure, but on at least 3 or 4 in a range. And while we're at it, what's stopping Nokia producing an LED video light being plugged in the mini USB slot for the N82 or a Xenon flash plugged in for the other camera phones without one? Huh?

What about using a Xenon Slave Flash http://www.digicamhelp.com/accessories/external-flashes/slave-flash/ with the LED equiped camera phones.

That last desktop pic from the N86 has a very green tinge to it!

Super photos from the N86 ,but why didn"t Nokia put a better camera on the N85 or N79 as the N95 8gb was a superb camera but Nokia disappoint alot of people not putting a top class camera on there next models the N85 an N79,one thing people want to see now is the battery life of the N86,as Samsungs 8 mega-pixel camera mobiles have very weak battery lifes on them,an i hope Nokia do not do the same thing,as the cost of the mobile an running it is getting to over expensive now days

I'm so mad with nokia punting that stupid Led flash on N86 and design is out of competition.
I think the best time for nokia is to come with new boooom because of competition ;
New N88 or N98 S60 5ed 600Mhz processor and 128 SDRAM no need huge internal memory like 8gb,with 3.5''/3.2'' touchscreen 1500mAh battery, 8 mpx Carl Zeiss high quality with ISO 50-800 auto, Xenon flash max 3.5meters ,with various lens aperture 2.4-3.2-5.2 and various focal length 4.5mm-6mm-10mm, high quality video recording with min20-max60 capture fps and with smooth playback 30 fps ,WVGA(848x480) and VGA(640x480) no need HD it's too much for phonecamera.
I don't care for price, I just want all in ONE and Nokia do it for as now.

thanks for the pictures. it seems impressive, but I want to see some real life shots, not closeups.

What if we have dim lighting and the same pictures are taken from about 5 feet back. That is when LED starts to show grain

Any chance we can get some new samples?

The last photo (N86 w. flash) explains why I will never, ever buy another led flash cameraphone. The part of the wall on the right (and the lamp) have a horrible blue tint (thanks, as usual, to the led flash); and it's no use to try to correct the situation by adding more yellow, as the part of the wall on the left (and the chair) have already more yellow than they should (thanks, I guess, to the N86 firmware, which already tries to add as much yellow as possible to compensate for the blue tint created by the led flash). Compare that photo with the one taken with the N82, where the entire wall is just white, as it should be.

it really looks like ill have to get my contract upgrade, and then sell it on ebay and use the money to buy a couple of cheap N82s as backups for my current one 😉

Excluding Xenon in a new imaging flagship is a crime.

Will Nokia ever bring out another handset with Xenon? A true upgrade to the N82! Not a phone with a slower processor, lack of a graphics accelerator and lacking Xenon and marketed as an upgrade.

We need an N83!

No Xenon practically makes any indoor photos useless, especially in bars and clubs.

This is the first year in 9, that I haven't upgraded my phone to a newer one! N82/N95 will remain the best phones Nokias has ever produced for a time to come. Nokia 95, 2 years old! 2 years and they can't top it! Lame.

I know I am just part of a small percentage of Nokia smartphone users but as a resident of the US an N82 is only an EDGE phone and as much as I want a great camera I would like to be able to access 3G networks too. I am really hoping that Steve's reviews will show the N86 to be enough of a compromise that it's worth buying (in about 6-12 months time once the price is more realistic) Having said that if Nokia released a US 3G version of the n82 I would probably buy it right now. I've been looking at E series devices (e71, e75, e55) but at the very moment I'm about to click buy I hold off knowing I will kick myself for not getting a better camera.
Does anyone know something that I don't? my ideal phone would have the Psion 5mx keyboard, n82 camera, iphone abundance of tool development, and n95-8g size storage, with an oled VGA screen and capacitive touch, and android like integration to google services. Unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon 😊

I hate leeeed, don't u see it makes the photos loook blueyish???? it's so annoying, damnnnn is it that hard to put a xenon flash por pictures a led for videos geeez , besides 80% of the times i use the camera is for taling pictures, i wouldn't care if they only put a xenon flash

Look at the close up of the can taken on the n86 without the flash. Somehow that photo has a blueish tinge on the right side even though the LED is not on. Why? Bug in firmware???

Great points in the comments and the fact is that Nokia has absolutely no excuses what so ever to have dual led instead of having a LED and a Xenon flash.
It's true however that LED can be very bright (Look at those at Led shoppe)

Still Sony Ericsson with its upcoming Idou features a Xenon in addition to LED for video recording, why can't Nokia manage to squeeze that in. Not to talk about earlier phones from e.g. Motorola.
Battery consumption is also something that Nokia hasn't been the best to improve. (It has improved greatly but not enough). Compared to SE phones it's still not good enough.

With such pace that the other manufacturers are improving their phones Nokia will once again be outraced.

Read an article recently about rumors on upcoming Toshiba phones and they also look very nice touchscreen, gps and all. (Though with only 3.x and 5 mpx camera running WM 6.5 so not so related here).

Having the Nokia N82 myself I'm dissapointed. (Will buy the N97 though also keeping an eye on Idou, dissapointing me once again with their proprietary ports)

the shot of the nokia n86 with the flash on really is a much better photo than the nokia n82! Note the picture is more sharp!
The nokia n86 kicks the nokia n82s ass big time.

The real test for the N86's camera would be to see how well it handles low light, action shoots. I doubt that it can freeze the action the way a Xenon flash does.

Well done, Steve.

This is the only review that I could find that investigates and compares rather deeply the imaging issue where it "hurts" - make the sensor work at low light without assistance of flash, in order to preserve the real existing ambience.

The better performance of the N86 that you found and demonstrated, although not being as huge as many (influenced by advertising words) would have expected it to be, is there, and it is exactly this small step forward which is so hard to achieve.
Well done NOKIA.

It would be interesting to know what the actual size of this new sensor is.
Then we would have an idea how it may come closer to results from a ultra compact digital real camera - (average sensor size 1/2.5"😉 of which the low light performance is already the weakest point.

If the ambience or atmosphere is not that important, Xenon flash is of course undoubtedly far superior in all respects, to any LED for still pictures.

But I don't know how a Xenon flash can be used for Video, and I think Nokia still wanted to keep the video'ing with inbuilt light an option, even though the video quality chosen is not that good at all, VGA only. HD would've been perfect....

All in all though it's a very good package with the camera performance better than others a bonus to the already well known good phone aspects of Nokia.

I think I'll buy it!

baH! n86 dual led flash is lousy comparing it to a xenon..n82 produces much colorful picture than the n86..and why is there a blue tint on the side of the captured n86 tint?

Try this link it was made in mid June 09. Nokia N86 True Colours leaves the xenon N82 with its Flash Bang 5MP to still impress among many new phones of the same calibre

http://brar.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/nokia-n86-8mp-vs-n82-photo-comparison-and-review/

Orange are trying to "upgrade me" at the moment, I have a Sony Ericsson K810i which has a xenon flash, everyone keeps telling me its an "old" phone and that i should "upgrade", but until I find a decent alternative "camera" merged with a mobile phone (as opposed to the other way around) im having to stick with what i have.

My only alternative is accept the rubbish upgrade and sell the new phone on ebay, and keep using my old phone for another 18 months!!!

GRRRRr