...I thought I'd write a comment on my blog about how modern smart devices are sold these days. I start with mention of the mobile phone, this model in particular, but move on to smart devices in general.
You can find it at http://bit.ly/5SSAFJ I would be grateful for your thoughts. If the mods here permit, you can post them here, but if its deemed a wee bit off topic, you can post them there.
Regards
Neil
I too was thinking the same thing�.
No, wasn�t going to write a blog, but rather that everyone seems ( reasonably) happy with their phones now � it that why the forum is so quiet these days?
Can�t read your blog , Websense on the work PC has blocked it. Will read it from home, as it sounds interesting.
I'll hafta have a read of that later as it sounds like it could be an interesting article.
My personal thoughts on smart phones today: They're like cars, aren't they? You can get cheap runarounds that have very good MPG and tend to do the job of getting you from A to B very easily (and well!). You can also get supercars that look fantastic and have all the bells and whistles and latest technologies, but for some reason they often fail on the simplest tasks (like the breaks lock up, or there's nowhere to rest your left leg, or the plastic used for the inside is horrible).
Sound familiar? 😉
I think that N97 "fatigue" is setting in...even the people complaining about the complainers complaining have stopped complaining.
Also chalk it up to the Holiday period starting...people have to start thinking about other things for a while (shopping, parties, etc.).
rdcinhou wrote:I think that N97 "fatigue" is setting in...even the people complaining about the complainers complaining have stopped complaining.Also chalk it up to the Holiday period starting...people have to start thinking about other things for a while (shopping, parties, etc.).
What about the idea that MOST N97 owners no longer have any serious problem to compain about... ??? Maybe that's beyond your imagination! lol
Considering that my N97 experienced a WSOD yesterday and that I'll have to spend this evening reflashing my firmware, reinstalling all of my programs and data....yeah, I'll admit that it's beyond my imagination. Maybe I'm too steeped in day-to-day reality.
On the other hand maybe it's because so many people have given up complaining, have sold their N97's on eBay and have switched to something less troublesome.
In the words of Samuel Clemmons...
"If at first you don't succeed...try, try again.
Then give up.
No use being a darned fool about it!"
maybe people are happy with it once they have had to wait 5 months for the reapir to be done or maybe people have sold it after waiting for so long and bought a different phone
may reasons why the foum could be a bit more quiet
rdcinhou wrote: Considering that my N97 experienced a WSOD yesterday and that I'll have to spend this evening reflashing my firmware, reinstalling all of my programs and data....yeah, I'll admit that it's beyond my imagination. Maybe I'm too steeped in day-to-day reality.
Ummm... considering you installed a BETA app shortly before the WSOD, then maybe your problems are at least partly self inflicted?
Considering our conversation in another thread where we discussed you do NOT have to re-flash FW, and how to reduce the time to re-install everything in future by use of a MicroSD card and copying maps folder (cities) to PC as a backup, I don't see why you are being so negative about your N97 only a few days after you posted on AAS saying how reliable it was with V20 and GPS fix.
There are 4 people/organisations responsible for the well being of an N97...
1. Nokia - we are totally in their hands with generic FW versions, but by V20, Nokia FW is usually pretty stable and fully functional.
2. Networks - they like to ruin FW by branding, disabling functions and installing their own apps. Networks also delay new FW until they approve their own variants.
You can de-brand the FW (risking warranty void) or by-pass the network altogether and buy Sim-Free (unfortunately without a subsidy on the price!)
3. 3rd party app developers. Beta=Bugs. Cracks=Instability. You can help by not installing beta or cracked apps, but other than that, go by recommendations of AAS and other forum members
- let someone else be the beta testers and wait for stable builds if you are not willing to accept the risk of instability and corruption. e.g. WSOD.
4. YOU (yes I said YOU!). The owner is where the buck ultimately stops.
Whether you get an N97 the day it's released, or wait for a stable FW is your choice.
Whether you buy sim-free and generic FW, or take a cheap/free b**tardised FW branded by your network - your choice.
Whether you install only trusted popular apps, reviewed & recommended on independent forums - or you choose to install beta/cracked/unknown apps - is your choice.
Nokia rightly deserved criticism for the buggy V10/11/12 FW and the GPS & lens issues - which they handled very badly.
However, V20FW, with GPS and LENS fixes, make the N97 a top notch device, which doesn't deserve the unwarranted criticism it is still getting on this and other forums!
dez_borders wrote:Nokia rightly deserved criticism for the buggy V10/11/12 FW and the GPS & lens issues - which they handled very badly.
However, V20FW, with GPS and LENS fixes, make the N97 a top notch device, which doesn't deserve the unwarranted criticism it is still getting on this and other forums!
Can't agree more although 'top notch' might be pushing it!
Mainly based on the fact it cannot play music and navigate in maps at the same time - in my case laggy navigation and slllooowwwww music when used together. Both of these my N95-1 could do with only very occasional lag when it got really busy!
I think that the form factor of the N97 works really well - for me anyway - with the candy stick type design, touch screen and querty keyboard. What let it down aside the GPS issues and camera lens is the lack of RAM and processing power to run 2 programs such as music and maps together.
This certainly is apparent in my version 20 FW.
What i hope is that a further FW update will eliminate the flab in the code of both FW and programs software to allow the N97 the ability to be able to perform in the scenario above.
Overall i am now happy with my phone although i does only seem (on the operating system front) slightly ahead of the 5800 (which is basically my N95-1 with a touch screen) rather than at what Iwould envisage flagship level.
People should also remember that alternative devices have downsides and faults as well as the N97 so its not always greener on the other side of the fence!
One thing i do understand is the frustration this device has caused me and others!
This is starting to sound like blah blah blah BLAH!!
Time to go!
😃
Don't agree - any App downloaded through Ovi should not be at your own risk. The resposibility is Nokia's to ensure that no App available in Ovi can damage the OS, that's what they take their % for. SO if you have only Ovi Apps and an unstable system then it would be a combination of either lack of Ovi App supervision or an incompatibilty between the firmware and SDK.
Apps bought from 3rd party stores obviously are more at your own risk - though I still believe that arguably the core OS should be bullet-proofed enough to cope with pretty much everything but that's quite a big ask.
Nokia and Symbian better work on this because despite your attitude that basically the phone should only really be used as it came out of the box and any user additons effectively invalidate support and you only have yourself to blame the world has moved on and users want and are being encouraged to download and buy new Apps for their devices. This is Nokia's future key strategy - what's Ovi all about? Yet appologists like to say that if your phone doesn't work after such a download then you're on your own and have yourslef to blame. A great encouragement to nervous users and anyone who might have had a bad experience with SF and downloads and will in no way encourage even more users to jump ship to OS's where App downloading and support is at the heart of the proposition.
Seriously take a look at what's goimng on outside Nokia (Symbian-land) you'll be amazed and users simply won't put up with this sort of attitude anymore not when there are so many better alternatives.
So yes Nokia and Symbian need to address (and real fast) how Network branding often affects stability - Apple have solved it by not allowing it and they have a device that the networks have all been cutting their wrists to get hold of (tell you something).
Obviously installing cracked Apps or hacking your phone (jailbreaking) is done at your own risk however you permanently allude to this whilst many in fact the majority of problems have been on pretty vanilla systems OK this was prior to V20 there are nothing like as many users (geeks) whpo customise thier phones or install cracked warez as you imply or the number of problems reported
1. Nokia - we are totally in their hands with generic FW versions, but by V20, Nokia FW is usually pretty stable and fully functional.yeah usually pretty stable simply just doesn't cut it anymore. Users are still reporting problems on Nokia's discussion boards (do you ever read them?) and at Nokia Users etc. Nothing like on the scale of the earlier firmwares but after 5 months of grief are you seriously surprised this phone's got a bad name (which it'll never recover)? The days of customers hanging around to have their phone patched so it actually works a la N95 - N96 errrr N97 (see a pattern here) are I'm afraid (actually no I'm not it's about bloody time) long gone.
snoFlake wrote: Don't agree - any App downloaded through Ovi should not be at your own risk. The resposibility is Nokia's to ensure that no App available in Ovi can damage the OS, that's what they take their % for.Apps bought from 3rd party stores obviously are more at your own risk - though I still believe that arguably the core OS should be bullet-proofed enough to cope with pretty much everything but that's quite a big ask.
In a perfect world, yes.
I the real world, Nokia won't guarantee anything on the OVI store as bug free. Nobody in the global software industry gives that guarantee. Nobody ever will.
If you force Nokia to attempt to guarantee apps as totally bug free, they simply won't approve any 3rd party apps for the store at all.
NOTHING is bullet proof, it's not possible to make an OS even close to bomb proof unless you disable all user installable apps & configurable options. We don't want that!
snoFlake wrote:
Nokia and Symbian better work on this because despite your attitude that basically the phone should only really be used as it came out of the box and any user additons effectively invalidate support and you only have yourself to blame
Since when did I suggest we stop installing 3rd party apps? I have always suggested Nokia owners install a small number of trusted, known, and required apps - not beta, not cracked and not 100s of apps we dont really need but that somebody thought would be clever to compile a list of and make into a sticky thread cos it makes them look clever and we have 32GB to fill just because we can...
BTW, re cracked apps that you say very few folk install? The reason TomTom dropped Symbian was that almost every copy running on N70/N80/N95-1 was cracked and nobody was buying a pukka copy - TT didn't make any money out of the platform so they canned it. Fact.
snoFlake wrote:
Seriously take a look at what's going on outside Nokia (Symbian-land) you'll be amazed and users simply won't put up with this sort of attitude anymore not when there are so many better alternatives.
From what I can tell, pretty much every mass-market high-tech electronic device on the market has gone through exactly the same scenario as Nokia with the N97. Sky+ issues when it came out, practically every Freeview Recorder on the market, iPhone FW issues, PC O/S (not just M$ ones), drivers for all kinds of PC hardware add ons. You name a product type and I could probably google you to an online forum slating the unreliable buggy FW for it.
snoFlake wrote:
So yes Nokia and Symbian need to address (and real fast) how Network branding often affects stability - Apple have solved it by not allowing it and they have a device that the networks have all been cutting their wrists to get hold of (tell you something).
Apple got lucky (clever cool design, revolutionary GUI - which they are well known for). The tech spec and functionality list (in Europe) of the first gen iPhone was sh*t (no MMS etc). However AAS isn't the place for iPhone chat.
Unfortunately for the rest of the phone manufacturers, the Networks just threaten not to promote or sell their handsets unless they are allowed to brand the FW. It's not only Nokia who gives in to the demands, and lord I wish they would tell Orange, VF, and H3g (the worst culprits in UK) to get stuffed and refuse to brand FW. In the current credit crunch climate, that would be commercial suicide and Nokia won't take the risk.
snoFlake wrote:
the majority of problems have been on pretty vanilla systems OK this was prior to V20
EXACTLY, but so many AAS postings still imply blame to FW for instability - like the chap who installed a beta app which crashed his phone soon after.
If you're unfortunate enough to still be on pre-V20 (because you're N97 is Network branded?) then complain to the Networks, or at least slag off your network in AAS posts?
Don't continually blame Nokia for the fact you (not you personally!) were too cheap to buy the product so accepted a branded one free as part of a Network contract.
snoFlake wrote:
The days of customers hanging around to have their phone patched so it actually works a la N95 - N96 errrr N97 (see a pattern here) are I'm afraid (actually no I'm not it's about bloody time) long gone.
Excuse my French but that's bollocks. People like you and I will most likely upgrade to the next Nokia flaship (whatever model it is) in 12 months. We have done it in the past, and we will do it again (and again). The same buggy FW flame threads will crop up in AAS as has happened in the 4 years or so that i have been a member. Every new model, every manufacturer. That's the pattern.
If you expect manufacturers to ever produce the totally perfect electronic device, don't hold your breath. Instead, don't be the first to buy a new release Nokia, don't accept a branded one - even if you have to - shock horror - PAY - eeek! cash for one on the Nokia store. Don't install cracked or beta apps unless you're willing to accept the risks.
...and don't take anything I say here as a personal attack on all N97 owners. I just think a large proportion of us are partly responsible for the problems we experience with our handsets.
Yep it's enlightened attitudes like this that have lead to the healthy Nokia / Symbian ecosystem we see today.
How many cracked iPhone Apps are there compared to total volume downloaded from iTunes - I'm very willing to guess it's an extremely low proportion. Why? it's simply not worth it. With the upgrades Apple have brought to the OS and the pricing in iTunes even many who'd jailbroken 1st Gen phones had less incentive to do so by the 3GS and the fact they'd learned to appreciate a stable OS which Jailbreaking has provably compromised has provided another disincentive, of course there are always going to be bedroom hobbyists but they know the risks, The only concern I have in this are the purchasers at phones4U, CPW etc coz that's where the money is for Nokia.
As you mention it twice I'd love to know how many TomTom apps (cracked or legit) were installed on Symbian devices as a percentage of the global Symbian base - and here's the rub it seems many symbian users are unaware they have a smart OS and certainly don't install Apps. There are figures available for Symbian relative to the newer OS'es floating round t'internet. So yes there were lot's of cracked Warez floating round amongst the geeks but they don't represent where the money or indeed where the opportunities are. Focusing on it at the expense of the expense of alienating the broad user base - normobs - seems unfortunate. Again something that could've also be fixed via strong Ovi/ OS interdependency.
I can think of no place better than AAS for a discussion of Apple and Android (indeed any other OS if it comes to that) in the context of the threats, opportunities and lessons they have for Symbian, something that seems to be takinga mighty long time to sink in some quarters.
Apple didn't get lucky they performed a brilliant market analysis and delivered a product perfectly suited to sieze the opportunities that were unaddressed adequately by other manufacturers and acame with a compelling product which they built upon and developed and backwardly updated and developed a software ecosystem for which Nokia are now trying to replicate and have had to open-source their OS to respond to. So no Nokia may not be able to replicate exactly Apple's strategy (that's the problem with becoming a follower) but they better figure something soon because they cop a lot of the blame even if it's carier-ware at fault. And with the N900 they've shown that they're willing to start playing hardball a bit more on this.
Name how many serious software faults the iPhone has had (and let's be honest here at the moment this is the competition the N97 faces even Nokia said so at launch so we may as well cite it) I can think of one major problem at the launch of the 3G and one firmware update since. Now how long has it taken to fix (and no I don't have one but have 10+ friends that do) ? - I think both were fixed inside a week. A very differnt tale from the N97 and given the large number of iPhones out there if there'd been a major problem don't you think it would've been emblazoned across the media? Again I'm not really interested in Sky +, Freeview, my old Sony W800, my mums washing machine and other items you keep dragging into our discussions - I'm relating Nokia to Apple and specifically the N97 vs iPhone.
Lastly for the record (for the third time) I own a Nokia Store bought N97 which my brother paid cash for with generic Nokia firmware (I would tell exactly which one but CPW have the phone) and I have 3 (count them) Apps installed all purchased through Ovi - Profimail, IM+ and Sudoku. Which given my experience may well be about as much as I'm willing to invest in this hardware (another problem with letting users down with inadequate software). And I have experienced not all the problems listed in here, Nokia discussions or Nokia Users but even under V20 still have unlock / incoming call problems , incoming call screen rotation problems (so that I've set auto off irritatingly), Nokia ringtone and widget feed problems (these were a promised feature set of the phone since announcement in Dec2008).
I take your point about waiting for a while after release but this would be a disaster for Nokia if everyone did it and I will point out that Apple are fab at getting a stable product in the shops within a month - sometimes day of announcement and ensuing media circus. If as you say we'll all be buying the next Nokia flagship a year after our N97's and we've had 5 months of useless firmware (and still work in progress) then you're implying that we should accept a product being faulty for 40% of our duration of ownership or wait until it's just over 6 months from being replaced.
Lastly I'm extremely unlikely to be buying a Nokia again certainly for a good long while. Looking at a lot of threads like this in other forums and and the market data available I'm not alone in being unwilling to purchase anything else from Nokia - I'm locked in for another 10 months on a Sim only deal but many others have swallowed the financial hit of this and gone on already to pastures new.
There's nothing personal in this but a Pollyannaish attitude that all's sorted out now and oh well let's let bygone be bygones doesn't really satisfy me as a dissappointed consumer or in the longer term view benefit Nokia. They got away with it so long that when a preferable alternative matterialised they've been terribly slow to respond.
If it's all going so brilliantly why did they announce such a radical overhhaul at their Capital Markets day - and yes ther may be some hope.
snoFlake wrote: I can think of no place better than AAS for a discussion of Apple and Android (indeed any other OS if it comes to that)
...
And with the N900 they've shown that they're willing to start playing hardball a bit more on this.
...
There's nothing personal in this but a Pollyannaish attitude that all's sorted out now and oh well let's let bygone be bygones doesn't really satisfy me as a dissappointed consumer or in the longer term view benefit Nokia. They got away with it so long that when a preferable alternative matterialised they've been terribly slow to respond.
Well thought out post! But to be brief...
1. AAS = All About SYMBIAN.
Not saying we can't mention the alternatives/opposition here for comparison etc., but I (for one - maybe even the only one?) am not interested in detailed discussions on Apple, Android or any other mobile OS on AAS. I am not even sure an N900 thread should exist on AAS, as it's a Unix based handset.
2. I compared the detailed tech specs of the N97 and N900, and the N900 seems to me just an N97 with a new unix based OS (with few 3rd party mobile related apps available?), a higher res screen, 256MB of RAM (Still way too small in my view), mew web app and (FINALLY!) native html email support. I did also note the more powerful CPU and the 3D GPU is back - which may allow you to listen to music whilst using Sat Nav. Cool! (But then you won't be buying Nokia again so maybe not).
3. My point is not that all is forgiven or forgotten, and I have never suggested such a thing. In fact you have a frustrating and disappointing habit of paraphrasing and misquoting me, which only serves to cheapen your response and weaken your own argument.
Most N97 owners in UK are probably 6 months into a 24 month contract, so may as well get the old issues fixed and start enjoying the next 18 months of being an N97 owner, instead of harping on about past problems - and (not you) implying V20FW is still unstable because installing a beta app crashed their handset with WSOD.
3. Cracked apps are a LOT more prevalent than you imagine, not only installed by a few geeks - if you were right, then TomTom would be making loads of money from S60 owners and still developing for the platform.
Best wishes if you jump ship and leave Nokia behind - and I hope you remain an AAS member either way - but please please dont ruin AAS by turning it from an S60 specialist site into a Generic Apple, Andriod, any-old-OS based site.
snoFlake wrote:I'm extremely unlikely to be buying a Nokia again certainly for a good long while. Looking at a lot of threads like this in other forums and and the market data available I'm not alone in being unwilling to purchase anything else from Nokia - I'm locked in for another 10 months on a Sim only deal but many others have swallowed the financial hit of this and gone on already to pastures new.
Same for me. I've got nearly a year to go on my contract (with 3) & am still on v11. When my contract is up, whatever I get will NOT be a Nokia. I'm not in a position to pay �500 for a device - simply don't have that amount of cash - and though I'm aware 3 are holding up the FW update, the fact is the name 'Nokia' is on the front of the phone; and they are ultimately responsible for their devices.
dez_borders wrote:Well thought out post! But to be brief...I did also note the more powerful CPU and the 3D GPU is back - which may allow you to listen to music whilst using Sat Nav. Cool! (But then you won't be buying Nokia again so maybe not).
Easy!!!
Flaming the wrong guy!! I like to use GPS and Music at the same time!! And i generally agreed with you!!
I think my N97 has improved by miles from V12 (now its been replaced) but at the moment it can't do the same things that my 3 years ago N95-1 could do so yes there's room for improvement which should have been from day 1 out of the box not come within 3 months from now or for that fact in 6, 9 or 18.
Also it still cannot even do what was promised in all the marketing info prior to launch - this is what got me to buy it in the 1st place (i'm thinking transitions).
It have to agree that Apple have seemed to fix/improve problems quicker than Nokia which for me has been a great disappointment from Nokia.
In reality my N97 is good enough now that i don't have a problem with it any more although by the same token i don't feel that i would miss it if i had another smartphone (already did 1 and a half months with my old W810i waiting for repair).
I think the lesson Nokia should learn is make sure Firmware is more mature prior to launch and respond to identified problems - such as Lens and GPS rapidly - i know the frustration of having a problem with my GPS and being fobbed off by Nokia for months even though they knew - after all they had instituted a fix during manufacture and prior to launch.
TurtlePower wrote:
Flaming the wrong guy!! I like to use GPS and Music at the same time!! And i generally agreed with you!!
Flaming the wrong guy? 🙄
I meant my comment as Sarcastic wit (lowest for of etc) rather than flaming, and my comment was actually aimed at sNowflake, who recently posted "I'm extremely unlikely to be buying a Nokia again"
TurtlePower wrote:
It have to agree that Apple have seemed to fix/improve problems quicker than Nokia which for me has been a great disappointment from Nokia.
You are no doubt correct, but then Apple were wise enough to refuse Network Branding from day one, so only had one or 2 FW regions to update and no waiting for network approval.
I have been saying on and off for years Nokia shouldn't have gone down that road. Alas thats now too late to change for Nokia, expecially as their market share is dropping year on year.
TurtlePower wrote:
I think the lesson Nokia should learn is make sure Firmware is more mature prior to launch and respond to identified problems - such as Lens and GPS rapidly - i know the frustration of having a problem with my GPS and being fobbed off by Nokia for months even though they knew - after all they had instituted a fix during manufacture and prior to launch.
I totally agree with you, but having owned most of the flagship N-Series handsets of the last 4 years, I don't think Nokia will improve the quality & robustness of release FW.
The GPS and Lens scratch issues were a shocking failure of Nokia's quality control and test teams.... but these are now resolved, so nobody has to suffer those issues on their N97.
Not forgive and forget, but perhaps get over it?
snoFlake wrote:
Apple didn't get lucky they performed a brilliant market analysis and delivered a product perfectly suited to sieze the opportunities that were unaddressed adequately by other manufacturers and acame with a compelling product which they built upon and developed and backwardly updated and developed a software ecosystem for which Nokia are now trying to replicate and have had to open-source their OS to respond to. So no Nokia may not be able to replicate exactly Apple's strategy (that's the problem with becoming a follower) but they better figure something soon because they cop a lot of the blame even if it's carier-ware at fault. And with the N900 they've shown that they're willing to start playing hardball a bit more on this.Name how many serious software faults the iPhone has had (and let's be honest here at the moment this is the competition the N97 faces even Nokia said so at launch so we may as well cite it) I can think of one major problem at the launch of the 3G and one firmware update since. Now how long has it taken to fix (and no I don't have one but have 10+ friends that do) ? - I think both were fixed inside a week. A very differnt tale from the N97 and given the large number of iPhones out there if there'd been a major problem don't you think it would've been emblazoned across the media? Again I'm not really interested in Sky +, Freeview, my old Sony W800, my mums washing machine and other items you keep dragging into our discussions - I'm relating Nokia to Apple and specifically the N97 vs iPhone.
This would be the same brilliant marketing analysis that, a mere 68 days after the iPhones launch, saw Apple withdrawing one model and slashing the price of the other by $200 amid a furore from early iPhone adopters which led to Apple refunding them.
As for faults etc; during it's brief history see here:-
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum//forum/thread/63373/&highlight=iphone+years+ahead