Has Symbian Had It's Day?

Yes, it has been pretty much recognized throughout the industry that the N97 (yawn-ho hum!) did not meet expectations--no glitz, no glamour, no spiffy transition effects, no HTML email, lousy speakers, scratched lenses, no-fix GPS, Ovi store (just what does "Ovi" mean anyway...plural for unfertiziled embryos?--quite symbolic!), WSOD's and last but not least NO REAL SUPPORT from Nokia!!

The N97 mini has been withdrawn by carriers due to a high number of returns.

As for the AAS forum...it will still be first and foremost in the hearts of those who are just too stubborn to stop trying to make their N97s work.

Well S60 has had its day, Symbian 4 is where its at, but thats a year away from being released. Sure the promo shots look nice, but I wonder how the performance will be. I don't want a flashy UI with rubbish performance. That is the issue. Symbian is slow and clunky compared to the likes of Android, iPhone etc. Its not just hardware issue either.

Right now Symbian smartphones won't be an option for me. The lower end Nokias are OK though.

Symbian^4 = Too little.. Too late..

Personally I think the Blackberries are so damn overrated its not funny as they are typically overhype P.O.S..(sorry.. I hate them with a passion). Blackberry OS is no better than Symbian and if it was not for the American investments in it to hold it up, it should also too go down the drain.

WinMo is dying as much as Symbian and if it is not because of HTC, it should have been nailed in its coffin... As just about everyone has abandoned this platform.

That basically leaves Google and Iphone.. Google is an expanding market (with more people jumping on the bandwagon) whilst Iphone is already very established. Its hard to think that a few years ago when it was released, the N95 was still a more superior phone. Now with the advent of all the software (that uses the full capabilities of the phone) plus the upgraded models that filled in the gap (eg. GPS, Better camera, video recording, MMS etc).. it is the platform to choose.

Nokia on the other hand killed off the N95 capabilities choosing to downgrade the specifications, and not able to level the platform. What do we get out of that? A Dead NGage platform, a half-arsed Ovi store selling hundreds of JAVA shit (excuse my french).. How does this compare with the Iphone that has full arcade quality 3D apps with plenty of innovations and full use of its capabilities? Whereas the N97 is using ported Java games from C64 days that was written for a N73 from 5 years back?

Its sick, people.. Nokia has really gone down the drain and yes, Symbian is dead.. I will hold onto my N97 since I use it for business functionalities (keyboard is great with touch screen) and you cant get better for that. Unfortunately though, Its not a games machine with the only thing worth playing are the well written emulators such as VBAG for OTHER platforms.

I await the day for the true Messiah phone to come (as it did with N95)..

nottmbantam wrote:Just been reading through one of my other regular forums, which incidentally is nothing to do with phones, but one of the discussions was around which new phone to get, and there was a very big bias towards the the iPhone, the Nexus, HTC HD2, and a few Blackberry's mentioned.

THe common denominator was that no Symbian phone was mentioned, the N97 didn't even get one mention, and no other Symbian phone was even discussed, not even the problem riddled Satio, or the seemingly satisfactory Samsung i8910.

Phones due to release later in the year seem to be Android based , Windows Mobile based or the iPhone.

So, going back to some of the comments on this site regarding the N97 and it's antiquated software, eg Symbian feeling out of date - has Symbian run it's course now?

And more importantly, what will become of this site?:frown:

- Depends on the forum. US forums tend to ignore Symbian for lots of reasons.
- The web is a parallel universe which hasn't that much in common with the real reality in which people pay their taxes and good money to get their problems solved. Nokia is still the # 1 cell phone maker/smart phone maker. That's an inconvenient truth for people who like to think in dichotomies: us/them good/bad black/white.

- S60 v5 isn't that bad at all. It works mostly well. It's not 'old' of 'obsolete', but an operating system in transition. Obviously Nokia cannot afford the luxury to come with an entirely new OS like Apple and Google offer at the moment (they will be in exactly that position within a few years, that's why business processes are cyclic) so it has to come with a compromise, for the time being. Now S60 offers something that works basically well, but doesn't look so cool. I can live with that.

People who cannot should go shop somewhere else.

I agree with Symbian^4 and time wise. It is too late. The N97 is a failure, and in the meantime the only decent smartphone Nokia has is not even a phone. Its an Internet Tablet with phone capabilities. Which even that has issues and quirks.

This year I'll probably end up with a Nexus One when my upgrade comes, or just go down to Sim Only plan and keep the N97 in the hope that maybe its not been forgotten about.

GJW wrote:- Depends on the forum. US forums tend to ignore Symbian for lots of reasons.
- The web is a parallel universe which hasn't that much in common with the real reality in which people pay their taxes and good money to get their problems solved. Nokia is still the # 1 cell phone maker/smart phone maker. That's an inconvenient truth for people who like to think in dichotomies: us/them good/bad black/white.

- S60 v5 isn't that bad at all. It works mostly well. It's not 'old' of 'obsolete', but an operating system in transition. Obviously Nokia cannot afford the luxury to come with an entirely new OS like Apple and Google offer at the moment (they will be in exactly that position within a few years, that's why business processes are cyclic) so it has to come with a compromise, for the time being. Now S60 offers something that works basically well, but doesn't look so cool. I can live with that.

People who cannot should go shop somewhere else.

It was UK based forum.

Was reading thorugh The Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago, and they did a quick comparison guide to the Smartphones out there. In terms of units sold, iPhone is way ahead globally, estimating 10m units sold, whereas the N97 is around 2M units sold.

nottmbantam wrote:It was UK based forum.

Was reading thorugh The Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago, and they did a quick comparison guide to the Smartphones out there. In terms of units sold, iPhone is way ahead globally, estimating 10m units sold, whereas the N97 is around 2M units sold.

- Generally: there are lots of reasons ('the special relationship'😉 why UK based forums/websites have a stronger bias to Merikan products/lifestyle than their continental European counterparts.

- In the Gadget Land talking estimates has become a way to convey a hidden message: we are good/they are bad.

I won't buy into that.

Estimated sales figures are just that. Estimates. According to Nokia the N97/N97-mini/S60 V5 are selling well. We'll have to wait for the quarterly reports to get the real figures. It won't be anything like 10m units for the N97, but probably more than 2. But then again: Apple has only one cell phone on offer. Nokia sells lots of -partly overlapping- devices. Add them up and Nokia still dwarves the iPhone.

If you want to buy an iPhone, or an Android device or anything then why don't you?

rdcinhou wrote:(just what does "Ovi" mean anyway...plural for unfertiziled embryos?--quite symbolic!)

😃

Thanks! That line has given me a great laugh on an otherwise depressing Monday!

nottmbantam wrote:Just been reading through one of my other regular forums, which incidentally is nothing to do with phones, but one of the discussions was around which new phone to get, and there was a very big bias towards the the iPhone, the Nexus, HTC HD2, and a few Blackberry's mentioned.

THe common denominator was that no Symbian phone was mentioned, the N97 didn't even get one mention, and no other Symbian phone was even discussed, not even the problem riddled Satio, or the seemingly satisfactory Samsung i8910.

Phones due to release later in the year seem to be Android based , Windows Mobile based or the iPhone.

So, going back to some of the comments on this site regarding the N97 and it's antiquated software, eg Symbian feeling out of date - has Symbian run it's course now?

And more importantly, what will become of this site?:frown:

I don't think anyone would deny that Symbian face its problem in the UI department, but as has already been mentioned this is being addressed. More over this is just one element.

Symbian prowess eslewhere is largely ignored. Good example would be 5530 and 5230 - the first �100 Symbian phones. It's a lot easier to sell lots of phone at this price point - indeed the vast majority of people own phones like this rather than the �500+ top end ones... Yes you can get them free on a contract, but the majority of people are still on PAYG (varies from market to market).

Context is all important too. Everyone has a view of the N97 but consider this - in Q3 2009 (last quarter figures are available for) it out sold every Android device put together. This of course will chnage as Android gather more momentum, but it does provide perspective to the N97 was dead on arrival viewpoint... Why did this happen? Nokia has a better sales channel... or some might argue there's a lot of uniformed people making buying decisions (though personally I think it is about people having different priorities)...

Another good example of this is the 5800 - widely derided when it was launched it has since gone on to sell very well indeed - this is because Nokia makes a phone that appeals to people outside the typical forum/ web / tech etc. user... A lot of the 5800's appeal is in its price point and robustness.

When you ask such a question in a web forum you inevitably get a response from within a certain bubble / viewpoint, but this does not necessairly reflect the entire market... its no different to consider developing markets (often largely ignored).

One the reasons for this is that Symbian, in one sense, effectively 'won' the smartphone war. It is the only platform that has managed to become horizontal as opposed to vertical (though Android looks promising in this regard).... what I mean by this is that Symbian is a platform that encompasses a very large device base (lots of different types of devices at different price points).

Incidentally this horizontal nature is why it will likely retain its marketshare at between 40 and 50%... even if it's not perceived to be being used in the 'cool' devices.

Well I can answer your last question... the site's not going anywhere. Naturally it may evolve or expand sideways (www.allaboutmaemo.com). And so far there's been no decline in vistors here (quite the reverse actually).

I'm deliberately putting counter arguments here - I actually think the real picture is more complicated than can be summed up in a one or the other argument. All platforms face challenges.. Nokia and Symbian do seem to get a dispropotionate amount of flack, but I think that's because of where the flak comes from.

Some valid points Rafe, and some which I readily agree with regading the lower end market , i.e the 5800. my wife has one, and my son also has one, and both seem well pleased with their phones. My sister in law has just bought the 5530 and again all seem pleased with their Symbian devices. All three use them on PAYG, and to make a phone available at that price is pretty good going.

But as a keen phone user and someone - who is not an expert - takes an interest in the phone's capability, I find it odd that the identical platform is driving the flagship phone as well as the lower end phones. Of course there have been hardware issued with the N97, but in essence, my phone pretty much offers the same as my wife's - and it cost three times the price. The only thing that my N97 can do which her 5800 cannot, is the built in FM Transmitter ( that I can think of.... ) .

But going back to my original post, this was just an 'online' conversation between a group of people who are not phone experts ( seemingly ) but are exposed to tales, anecdotes, and of course marketing , hearsay and everything that is connected with decision making when a consumer decides to spend money. None of this though led anyone of the group to suggest a Symbian based device (actually, on reflection, I think one person did actually suggest a 5800 ) .

So what it is at the moment that doesn't 'generally appeal ' to the British public about Nokia and Symbian? I do think the ( seeming ) failure of the N97 has cost Nokia a lot this time, and may take a lot for it to recover. In terms of their vast range of phones, I just fnd it confusing and would hate to work in a mobile phone shop, as there just too , too many phone models....

In terms of this site, I've been registered since 2004, so of course I want to see it continue - it's been such a valuable source of information, I can't begin to describe! Long may it continue.

Reading my first comment I must have been a bit grumpy when replying - oh well.

It's really good to see this being discussed as a reasonable discussion - rather than hot and run 😊

And yes one of the problems with a horizontal platform is that you get similar offering all across the device portfolio in pure function terms. It is harder to make the high end stuff stand out... but at the end of the day doing the reverse (i.e. keeping some software elements for the high end might be counter productive - Nokia, up until quite recently, did this with Nseries and Eseries and people disliked (and still do) artificial software omissions.

So yes it becomes harder to compete against a 'platform' that just targets one device segment (the iPhone being an extreme example)... but you can say the same about RIM.

And I guess with the N97 you're paying for the form factor and the 32 GB of memory, a better camera, better materials etc etc. But yes I agree with you - I think the 5800 / 5530 offer much better value for money. I imagine a cheap QWERTY touch (hybrid) device will appear soon and that could make things even more interesting.

Clearly though this goes both ways - having the cheaper devices gives you a wider addressable audience... and arguably building public awareness of smartphones and apps will help Nokia as much as anyone, especially if they are offering devices options right across the spectrum...

And yes interesting all the same.. be very interesting to see what people actually ended up buying... and how much variation there is between markets. The UK is fortunate in having near universal access to all devices on an equal footing.

Which (and yes I am being a bit naughty here) by extension leads us to the conclusion that one should never buy a SF High End device as the lower end offers infinitely better value for essentially the same functionality and arguably well in reality in the case of Nokia better stability.

It's going to make the N series a bit of a tough sale.

I do think SF are in surprisingly bigger problems than it might even seem for a number of reasons:

1) There are a couple of platforms out there well supported that have garnered a lot of momentum and group think and by making S/W enhancements barkwardly compatible have been able to take the whole installed base forward. One of them the iPhone has also been inventive in the UI and ecosystem area and has very solid reliability (unlike SF). The users of these paltforms are aware of what they have installed unlike the bulk of SF users. Unfortunately for SF many of the sort of users who are aware of what OS they are using and make positive selections about such things have been driven off by the digraceful release states and reliability of many of the devices using SF. Once bitten twice shy and they have been able to directly compare (pretty much always unfavourably) against friends devices such as the iPhone and even previously rabid iPhone detractors have been pushed into Apple's warm embrace by devices such as the N97 and SE Satio. Unlike you Rafe I don't believe they WILL return to they SF/Nokia fold not unless Apple really mess up big time.

2) This is at Nokia's door mainly - they've been caught sleeping on the job and they're facing a very nimble marketing aware and tecnologically savy competitior because their lack of ambition and development handed an open goal. Their recent high end devices I am convinced have done enormous damage to their reputation for reliability and build quality and will generate the reverse of the positive PR and evangelism that the iPhone garnered from it's early adopters and again I repeat it's not just the maybe 30% of disatisfied N97 users (I actually think it's much higher than that from converstions with sales staff in phone shops, a Nokia Uk Rep, Nokia specialist forums, the AAS forums and even Nokia's own discussion forums - it's so bad there they've had to start deleting the threads asking where V2.1 is and asking for bug fixes to be included in it also the Vodafone forums on the N97 had to be locked for a while owing to the huge volume of complaints. Unfortunately becasue of their very central indeed pivotal role that Nokia has in the SF ecosystem SF is being tarred with the same brush of failure. I don't believe unlike you that the complaints are restricted to the geek-o-sphere I think there are a huge volume of people who just want ther phone to work don't care about the OS don't really care about multi tasking as long as they can do fun stuff seemlessly and can down load something (even/especially a fart app 😃 ) without threatening the stability of their phone and can't understand why their N97/N97 mini/ X6 doesn't work as well as their friends' iPhones, keeps crashing and looks worse and in the case of the N97 costs the same - not a great proposition.

3) So again by extension SF ends up being relegated to an S40 type role well then it becomes an also run with "hand me down" functionality whilst the deveolpment work is done on other platforms and the features eventually get ported over to SF.

Not a time for complacency I think and although SF^4 maty be cooking up great things Q2 2011 is a long way away (not in development cycles but in media and mindshare cycles) and extrapolating the sales data looks like things are going to get very tough. As I've commented elsewhere I think following the end of network exclusivity agreements I think (guessing from anecdotal accounts) that iPhone Q4 2009 and Q1 2010 sales are really going to surprise to the upside and whilst once these may not have been comin form Nokia's customer base really I know beilieve they are - the UK is now the iPhone's highest penetration market if stats are to be believed in what was once a SE Nokia lock up. Talking of whom look at the mess SE are in and it should be a warning to all of where tecnological complacency leads.

Heh - yes fair point about not buying a high end SF device - of course that ignores real hardware difference (camera / memory etc.)... more importantly people don't make rational decision like that when purchasing a phone. Its a contributing factor, which is more important for some than others.

I don't really buy the sales [will decrease dramatically] argument any more. I'm not saying there will not be downward movement before Symbian^4, but I dont think there will be a dramatic shift. There's very little evidence of a dramatic sales shift thus far despite people media making this argument for the last year or more (I can remember having this conversation when the N85 came out).

You can say the same thing about support forums. People only tend to post to them (especially official ones) when they have a problem. I would be very wary of drawing any number outs of forum activity. Saying things like 'huge numbers' etc. is fairly meaningless unless you put it in context. It's no different to me drawing a conclusion that iPhone build quality is bad because its the phone (according to insurance stats) that has one of the highest non-accidental claim rates (i.e. something has gone wrong which is not a) being lost b) being dropped).

I would draw in an interesting point here. There's a lot of buzz around Android and Nexus One, but its not going to unseat iPhone over night like some commentators have been suggesting.

I don't think anyone would deny there are soome problems with Nokia's current high end portfolio, but really no platform is problem free... I would say that the Nokia ones are more visible as the biggest issue for many is UX. For example, for a non-Google user Android isn't that staright forward to get going on (for the with Google devices). Or look at the compaints around the Nexus One...

The N97 mini is a fine device - not perfect, but for a lot of people will stand up well to comparison with other high end devices. Yes there have been some buggy devices, but again this is true of all phones. It's worth pointing out that sales in the first 3 months generally represent a minority of total sales over a device's lifetime - this means the majority of buyer get a device with the stable firmware (e.g. buy an N97 now and you'll get the v20 firmware and GPS fix and will consewuently have a much better experience than someone who bought last July).

the problem i have with this symbian^4 time table is this, when has nokia EVER released something that is ready to go out the door from day one? never ever ever have they done this. so what this means is that while symbian^4 will come out in 2011, it wont be fixed and bug free until 2013, quite literally. its bad enough that they are waiting until 2011 for a competitive OS. but nokia's track record with software and OS's is just so horrible that it will take a few more years after release to even get something decent. by then android and/or iphone will have left symbian in the dust.

this coming from a very very happy n97 mini owner, i love this phone😊!

Answer is No.. Nokia do not release things that is ready to go out. They announce handsets at least 12-18 months in advance of the product availability. It is to keep raise stock prices (keep investors happy), show market dominance, generate potential excitement for the product and every other marketing outcome possible from this..