Q1 2010 figures in for smartphones and phones

Is it Telling though Steve, I myself often quote Apple figures as you know, so I guess I am as guilty as anyone, but when you can buy a 5230 for �79 as you can at CPW right now, and I assume this is part of Nokia Smartphone count, how relevant are the percentages?

Actually, that sounds silly, the percentages are clearly fine. What I mean to say is, the 40% is not that relevant with all the cheapies in there?

Kev

Fair point Kev, but I think you can say that about any set of stats. With smartphone stats there are always going to be ifs, buts and definition issues. There clearly different stratigraphy within the smartphone space... but you can argue as apps and services becomes important sources of revenue that the lower end is just as important (perhaps more so, given volume) as high end (when the bigger margins are on hardware).

I think the number also say something to those who would write Nokia off or underplay their significance. There's more the one way to do business in the smartphone market.

You can make a similar argument about usage - i.e. what do people use their phone for. I guess you just have to take these things in context.

Yeah, but Rafe, look at Nokia's trend line. They still lead in overall share, but that number has now been steadily sliding for about three years.

In fact, if those trends hold, RIM is going to catch Nokia within the next two years and pull even.

It's not a surprise, as per all the news reports, including Reuters, that are reporting the company might be forcing OPK out the door, due to irate shareholders. The stock price has cratered from >$40 to $12.

I would expect Nokia share to be slipping because only 4 years ago they only had a very poor windows phone competitor. Now more players are entering the market, more OS platforms and even more manufacturers.

Forget the price, it's only functionality that really matters. The fact that Nokia can sell a phone with that much capability (much more capable than an N70 which nobody ever argued about its status and cost a fortune) for that low a price is a sign of their strength and ability. You can't just discount those phones because the other companies can't compete with them. Nokia can sell powerful phones for low cost and that is why they are strong.

Somebody's not really looking at the graph properly. Nokia's share dropped significantly between Q3 2007 and Q3 2008, due to the disruptive introduction of the iPhone (and to a lesser extent, Android). Since then their marketshare has waved around a bit, but is actually up ever so slightly YoY.

RIM have seen consistent growth since Q3 2007 (and well done to them for that, but if they grow at the same rate from now on, it's still going to take 6 years for them to catch Nokia - and as we all know A LOT can happen in that time.

Nokia's market share has been pretty flat for the last few years which, considering they have no meaningful presence in the US where a lot of growth has occurred, isn't a bad achievement.

As for Stock Price, it's at least partly an indicator of growth - when you're increasing share rapidly it grossly inflates. When you've reached market saturation it drops and levels. It happened to Microsoft, it has happened Nokia, is happening to RIM and it will happen to Google and Apple.

Nobody credible is saying that Nokia is going away; they're too big, have many patents, and are involved in other businesses (Nokia-Siemens) to completely disappear.

What many ARE saying is that Nokia is no longer a growth company; they're now essentially a utility, and nobody that wants to make a profit in the markets, outside of your grandparent's pension fund, likes investing in utilities.

One of the reasons for the turmoil now in the company's executive suites and on the ground, is due to rapidly shrinking margins, that are collapsing, partly due to competition from the likes of Samsung and RIM. They're fighting it out with other manufacturers in low and mid tier markets and it's hell on their margins. Comparatively, Apple makes around $500-$600 per phone sale, while Nokia sees $80 per phone.

Many Nokia followers insist that the company doesn't need, and can ignore, the U.S. market. I propose that they really, really do need to be able to crack open the American market; if they find a way to play again in the Super Phone arena, their margins will expand, they'll have their 'halo' device, and they can start, with their good PR department, optimizing mindshare. In addition, most of the latest software innovation is happening in the U.S.

In order to compete in the U.S. though, Nokia needs to fast-track Meego and/or Symbian 4, and they need to reconfigure Ovi services, or at least partition a portion of them, to cater to the American market. Right now, understandably, services including the Ovi store, and even Maps are primarily Euro/Asia-centric. They'll also need to do something about their customer service and post sales support in the U.S., possibly partner with a company with a large bricks and mortar presence (Wal-Mart/Target/Best Buy/Radio Shack).

Anyway, that's my $ 0.02.

Jimmy1 wrote: Comparatively, Apple makes around $500-$600 per phone sale, while Nokia sees $80 per phone.
.

How do Apple make $500-$600 per phone sale when I can buy one for less than that (purchased outright, no contract) and like most iPhone owners I only do free apps?

I also believe the "super phone" segment is bigger and has more growth room in Asia.

Unregistered wrote:How do Apple make $500-$600 per phone sale when I can buy one for less than that (purchased outright, no contract) and like most iPhone owners I only do free apps?

I also believe the "super phone" segment is bigger and has more growth room in Asia.

They get that with a supplemental carrier deal. For example, a subsidized iPhone on AT&T, for a new subscriber, is around $200-$300. That goes to Apple, but AT&T also adds another couple of Hundred Dollars for each new subscriber, that also goes to Apple.

And then there's iTunes (apps, content, etc.). Everything from there is gravy for Apple.

"Unregistered - and like most iPhone owners I only do free apps?"

Oh Puh-Lease!! How on earth can you POSSIBLY say that lmao?? How do YOU know that MOST iPhone users only d/l free apps?

Hell I'll join in, like me most Nokia owners never d/l apps at all because they're all terrible and they only buy the cheap devices because Nokia are incapable of making a good phone.

See? Other people can spout rubbish too :-/

iFanboy wrote:

Oh Puh-Lease!!

"oh Puh-Lease"

What are you? Some kind of bad american sit-com stereotype from circa 1996?

I would be embarassed to use that kind of expression.

Jimmy1 wrote:They get that with a supplemental carrier deal. For example, a subsidized iPhone on AT&T, for a new subscriber, is around $200-$300. That goes to Apple, but AT&T also adds another couple of Hundred Dollars for each new subscriber, that also goes to Apple.

And then there's iTunes (apps, content, etc.). Everything from there is gravy for Apple.

So, in the UK I can pick up an iPhone 3GS with NO subscription for �424 (USD $646 www.xe.com)
and somehow, the phone is manufactured, shipped from China and everone has taken their cut from $146 and Apple picks up $500?

I have real trouble believing that.

iphone fanboy says to nokia fanboy: I gave alot more of my money to apple than you gave to nokia! So there!

Nokia fanboy says to an iPhone fanboy : I got rubbish specs from a smartphone for �400 than you did for �400 so...um....there?

Unregistered wrote:"oh Puh-Lease"

What are you? Some kind of bad american sit-com stereotype from circa 1996?

I would be embarassed to use that kind of expression.

Um, wow. Nice, insightful comment, well done! Now go pat yourself on your back and go join the other unregistered filth 😊

Hmmm ifanboy what specs are you talking about? I have 1 word for you: N900. N900 is almost 100usd cheaper than the 3gs yet still it blows it out of the water specwise, same as it does to your joke.

Software innovation happens all over it is just that the ones from america are more publicized. But what is software innovation really? All the innovation i have seen coming from america has to do with pretty ui and fancy animations, not much useful unless you have sub 80 iq or is a toddler who like watchin flashy stuff. Lets look at the "innovations" a crippled os based on unix run by a law firm with secret police, an os comprising of a linux kernel with a java layer ontop, a sudo smartphone/dumbphone os by the pc os giant, an os consisting of basically html pages running atop a linux kernel server. The biggest innovation there seems to be the combination of secret service, law and mobile tech 😊, all those os did only one thing better than symbian and others before them- they looked nicer, thats all the innovation. No groundbreaker in the way the os manages power, how the os functions with tasks, the way the file system is managed, nothing. They are all based on established kernels 20+ years old. I have to admit though that they changed the way 3rd party apps are consumed but apart from that nothing else.

I realised that the 'nokia doomed' chat is now stale and isnt being repeated much more, so people are finding alternate means of insult. They are now breaking apart impressive stats like these and trying to throw negatives all over them. So instead of 'nokia doomed because they are losing marketshare' we are having: 'nokia is irrelevant in the high end' 'nokia make cheap smartphone' 'nokia profit low'(like you should give a d*mn how much money a company makes off you) and all kind of other quite funny talks. The question is: what will you all say when they improve on those things that you criticise them for? Will it change to 'the name nokia is too old'? Get a grip nokia is here to do business and they will continue to do well, nothing any1 of the naysayers can say will change that.

iFanboy wrote:Nokia fanboy says to an iPhone fanboy : I got rubbish specs from a smartphone for �400 than you did for �400 so...um....there?

You mean like a really poor camera with no flash, a crippled OS where you have to shut down apps to open another and the worst radio signal strength perormance? Not too mention the poor battery life and slightly embarassing stigma.

But don't worry, it has nice transitions on its touch UI. Really useful when it says "no service" at the top.

I speak (write) from experience.

Unregistered wrote:"oh Puh-Lease"

What are you? Some kind of bad american sit-com stereotype from circa 1996?

I would be embarassed to use that kind of expression.

Surely you don't expect anything else from somebody that openly admits being a fan of gadget maker? Apple lover = socially handicapped.

Last quarter overall(not just smart phones), RIM tied Sony Ericsson and sold more phones world wide than Motorola. In the US Apple outsold Motorola.

Motorola's that bad.

Nokia are in trouble, but they are not finished yet. I think they only have about 9 to 12 months to turn around their high end smartphone sales performance.

By the end of this year we will see Android OS becoming the default choice for many phone manufacturers (customers will be buying Android phones without knowing they are android phones), the new iPhone will push up Apples share of the market considerably as it is likely draw in new customers just by discounting the current 3gs, Windows Phone will be the new (old) kid on the block with Microsoft throwing everything they have at it, and even HP investing $1.2B in Palm is likely to have an impact. If Nokia havent got their act together by then, with some real solid (read - not their usual buggy firmware) releases I think they will have a major problem turning things round in the high end smartphone market.

Nokia are in trouble??? I bet apple wish they were getting as much as they do....

and if you just look from 2009, they are actually 'on the up'...

Now if apple started releasing MUCH more types of phone....

That is why Nokia wins, a different phone for everyone...

Nokia is not in trouble, even though N8 has been thrashed by Eldar, I really love it over that Iphone 4.
UI is not everything, Hardware shouls also be there, and i bet N8 has the best hardware.

Fanboy, have you ever imagined an iphone having USB on the go?? HDMI out??
I will not be surprised if u say a big.. "NO"??

"Fanboy, have you ever imagined an iphone having USB on the go?? HDMI out??
I will not be surprised if u say a big.. "NO"??"

The name's just to get reactions, which works 😉

I'd love to have HDMI out, and if you checked my posts, you'll find I'm very impressed with the N8 😊. I'm actually hoping the N8 kicks a$$ tbh and gives Apple a run for their money as it'll only make them make the next iPhone, better 😉