Fired up by the discussions in the Phones Show Chat podcast, one of my listeners, Andy Weekes, took the time to write in a veritable essay on his experiences (ok, mainly frustrations) with Nokia, Symbian and the current competition. Some of his points are very valid, others more arguable, but you'll hopefully enjoy his essay and my (inline) responses below. Comments welcome, some of these topics could run and run!
Read on in the full article.
On Nested Folders being not a system Android emulates, rather providing a scrollable alphabetical list of Apps, I'd take issue!
Folders can be set up on any of the Android HomeScreens and used in a productive way much like the Symbian ones. Granted, a Folder can't be put inside a Folder.
Apps you'd like inside the folder can be dragged and dropped inside and appear in the order they were added - no longer alphabetical. Again, once there, granted, they can't be moved around.
I take the point that Symbian can produce a true (dare I say) Windows (or preferably Psion!) File Management environment with 'folders in folders' but Android can, with some tweaking, produce a very productive method too leaving a MasterList of Apps in Alphabetical order (making them easy to find, one might argue) still there for when you want to change things around - by 'moving' them to a Folder, you're actually only copying them.
Furthermore, it's not just Apps that you can move/copy into Folders, but also ShortCuts for quick one-tap access to websites, for example, Contacts, PlayLists etc...
I don't know this website, but chopping every paragraph and saying "I don't believe you" doesn't make great journalism. I found myself skimming over the Symbian apologist. I'm reminded of Stephen Fry's classic "my HTC TyTN can do more" line. Sure, it can - but no-one's ever gonna give it a look until they can get past the risible UI.
I had a nightmare today trying to read my iPhone screen in the sunlight. Seriously considering going back to real keypads.
Hopefully this has changed with Symbian^3, but when I had the N97, my biggest gripe with Ovi Maps was that it wasn't integrated with the other applications. I can click on an address in the browser or contact list in Android and map to it.
Also, I just downloaded Froyo and Flash 10.1, and it is very nice. It's caught up with the N900 on the Flash front (and ahead of Symbian^1). The browser is noticeably faster, and being able to use the phone as a Wi-Fi hot spot is nice (though I'm having issues with VPN). Plus, auto-rotate works in 3 directions now instead of 2.
Finally, and this is huge, with Froyo there is constant access to the Phone (and browser) icon. Google seems to have gotten the point that smartphones are still phones first.
A fair (and spirited) article which I hope will further discussion.
Before I add any comments I'd like to make one thing clear if it isn't obvious from my positive comments in the text. I am not aiming to 'bash' Nokia, I genuinely believe they have the best balanced hardware lineup of any manufacturer, but for me personally the UI has such an over-arching effect that I'll (reluctantly)i sacrifice some hardware specs for a better user experience.
A few responses to Steve's comments:-
Tim has mentioned Android's folder capability, but in defence of the flat app directory whilst folders are a good idea for a user to create, in Nokia's case they are a hindrance the way the manufacturer configures them. The great thing about a flat application list is you *know* the app you want will be there and providing scrolling is easy its not too onerous to find.
For several weeks after I got my Nokia there was a mythical location called the 'Gallery' and it really is no exaggeration to say I simply could not find it on the phone. The phone kept saving things there but I had to use the file explorer to find them. It is a folder of course, but it's so deeply hidden in the folder structure, in folders that look like they are applications , that it is a challenge to locate.
With regard to inconsistency between Nokia models this will help illustrate the problem. I wrote a detailed set of step by step instructions on how to set up Mail for Exchange and posted them on the company intranet for others to use. Not one person has been able to use them unaided since the differences between my phone and the other devices in use is significant enough to need further assistance from me.
Finally on the N8 I have probably been unfair, basing my view on the very limited information available, I look forward to some hands on with one when it becomes available.
Unregistered wrote:I don't know this website, but chopping every paragraph and saying "I don't believe you" doesn't make great journalism. I found myself skimming over the Symbian apologist. I'm reminded of Stephen Fry's classic "my HTC TyTN can do more" line. Sure, it can - but no-one's ever gonna give it a look until they can get past the risible UI.
If you DID "know" this website and DID know more about Steve, you would know that he is very open-minded (despite what some people say) and does try all of the different operating systems. And if you had read the article properly you would have noticed that he didn't say "I don't believe you" every time he answered a point, and in fact agreed with many of the points made...
I agree with everything Andy has written. I am ready to move on to Android or iPhone 4 (waiting for it's announcement).
Just to comment on one point - my summary of Ovi Maps experience:
1. interface is in fact very bad compared to TomTom. Try to do a simple task of reviewing the planned route.
2. route calculation algorithms are very simple (not comparable to IQ Routes)
3. problems with GPS on my Nokia 5800 with latest firmware (often gets stuck and requires phone restart, gives directions after the turn).
As a result I don't use it.
"Try setting up a mail for exchange account on a Nokia, then do the same on Android or iPhone as a clear example of this; the latter two are a pleasure, the former an effort, even if you can even find all the settings you need, and get through obscure error messages on the way. The really frustrating thing about this is it's relatively trivial to improve!"
I would take issue with this. About a year ago I tried to set up email on my iPod Touch, and my wife's. I couldn't believe how bad it was, and it resolutely failed, despite having been very easy to set up on my Nokia E90 and my wife's Palm Centro. Neither account was a MFE account, one being a POP account and the other being an IMAP account on our home-server.
Eventually, after a bit of digging, it turned out there was some sort of problem with Apple's port settings/encryption, which could be worked around; however, obvious it was not. While I'm sure this has been improved in the meantime, it was a good illustration that even Apple get things wrong sometimes...
"As an engineer with a very technical perspective and a wealth of experience even I find it hard, how is poor old Mr. Average to cope?"
Well Andy, I'm no engineer but I know how to operate my phone...
Steve wrote...
"At �330 (inc VAT) nowadays, around 80% the price of the Desire, the N97 mini has better build quality, a far better camera, plus that full qwerty keyboard - you'd have to agree that these make it a damn good alternative to the Desire's all-touch approach. "
But this is exactly my point and I believe your response shows you might be missing it too.
Yes the N97 mini has a fantastic set of hardware specs, but most non-technical users will care little about it if you gave them hands on experience with both side-by-side; the lure of HTC's luscious Sense UI with all of it's built in cleverness will, in my view, win over the under-the-bonnet hardware specs since these aren't visible to the end user during that first hands on experience.
Give the N97 that same user experience and I'd buy one tomorrow!
Andy.
Well of course so do I, the point is I don't *enjoy* using it...
😊
Isn't this just the same old stuff that has been covered endlessly on forum after forum ever since the N97 came out? And by somebody who has had no hands on with a Symbian ^3 or ^4 device? Nokia and almost everybody else has acknowledged that S60V5 UI and its Symbian N97 implementation was not up to the competition. Time to move on and look at future.
Where is the value in this essay? And why does somebody who has made his decision and his choice need to spend time writing a diatribe on why an Android phone is better than one he hasn't used?
Personally, I have long since drawn my own conclusions and have stepped out of Symbian use for the time being (although not for Android because for me the Desire is the only Android phone I would consider), so I need to know what is wrong with Symbian ^3 and ^4 from somebody who knows. Not someone who has seen the same youtube videos that I have.
Unregistered wrote: I need to know what is wrong with Symbian ^3 and ^4 from somebody who knows.
I will tell you what is wrong with Symbian ^3 and ^4 - they do not exist 😊 No final system, no phones, nothing you can see or buy. Just photos on the web (and looking almost the same as ^1). That alone shows the whole thing is 1 year to late (probably more for ^4 which seems to be at early concept stage).
Competition has made several great phones and new OS releases, very significant progress. Nokia showed one concept phone and asked to not switch it on 😊
"Transflective screen" is not the only solution to making it more readable. Making it less reflective actually works for Super AMOLED.
...really. I've been using Nokia for about 10 years now. But the only reason I've been using it for the last three ones is that I've always gotten mine for free. My latest one is an N97. I could understand the anger people felt when having paid some hundreds of pounds/dollars and receiving a phone that is riddled with bugs, faulty firmware, oldish UI and under-exciting hardware spec (with serious blunders like lens scratches, malfunctioning GPS, and too little C drive memory). Arguing that it's not THAT bad is just ignoring what's being recognized all over forums. And the only outlook we've got is the potential for a great phone with new Symbian (N8) - haven't we all heard that before?
We've got to face that Nokia's attempt to provide (too) many phone platforms will only leads to least common denominator type of solutions - which is what the N97 was and the N8 will be.
Ok, I can understand that people are sceptical about the N8, given Nokias history with N97. BUT come on, go to youtube and watch all the clips about the N8. Including the unofficial ones, that shows some 3D games on it. It is quite evident that this phone will kick ass! Judging from the videos it is already far ahead of anything in its price range.
As a developer I have looked a great deal at the new Qt framework that the N8 and Maemo/Meego, and it rocks! It's fast and open, with a serious ability to kick both Android and iPhone in the teeth. There is absolutely no doubt about that.
But I guess, we will all see sometime in July/August. However I am, for the first time in 3 years holding my breath on the N8.
Unregistered wrote: Just photos on the web (and looking almost the same as ^1).
You must be seeing different photos and videos than I have seen.
Unregistered wrote:"Transflective screen" is not the only solution to making it more readable. Making it less reflective actually works for Super AMOLED.
Even if Super AMOLED is a little less reflective, the light from the display will compete with the light of the sun ... guess who will win this.
Regarding the critics to Ovi maps. I agree that this is the most awkward navigation system I have ever used. Without online connection it finds only a fraction of the targets, I am looking for. And the search takes for ever. Compared to a TomTom's search as you type, this looks like a navigation software from 10 yrs ago, just with some 3D buildings.
It is just good enough to lead me to a target. But every competing software is better IMHO.
It seems I must rant on nokia too.
The latest design on Nokia storage memory have a flaw. I really hate to say this, but i�m a victim on this bad design. Only several of Nokia device that have both the internal memory and microSD were the one that immune to this problem.
The E75, E72, E71, E70, E66, E65, E63, E61, E6i, E55, E52, E51, N81, N79, N78, N70, 5800, 5530, 5230, and many more�� have this flawed. With no special internal storage such as on E90, N97, etc user were forced to NOT be able to hot swap the microSD.
If I put the photo/video I took on the phone internal memory, and I took lots of photo, the free memory will be gone very quickly. If I put the default storage on my memory card, that mean my memory card were somewhat tied to the phone.
This also the same as for the SMS/MMS/e-mail. I do receive and sent lots of MMS because my provider give me free MMS each month. If I put the default storage to be on the phone (the default setting on nokia), the memory on my phone is full in no time.
The bad news about this were, if this C drive full, the phone will got cranky. I'm an avid user of symbian and hate this, what's about the average joe in this situation will do??? sell their phone!!
I�ve been repeatedly suggesting nokia, instead of giving us (a small size) microSD card in sales package, nokia would be better to make it the internal storage, and still give us the freedom to add microSD on the phone. Just like in N97/N97mini.
So, for example, the cheap 5230 would got internal memory of 1GB & empty microSD slot (up to 16GB), the more expensive 5530 would got 2GB & empty microSD slot, the more expensive 5800 got 4GB & empty microSD slot.
The E51/E52 got 1GB internal memory & empty microSD slot. The E71/E72 got 2GB internal memory & empty microSD slot.
Please note, the internal memory is not a free memory (a leftover memory of NAND flash), it�s the one like in the N97 internal memory.
I wish nokia or allaboutsymbian got my idea. Thanks for listening
Oh and for all the people saying "get over the N97" - it's easy to say when you're not tied to the friggin thing for a 24 month contract. If someone farts, you get out of the way and stay away from that person. An N97 on contract is like having a turd taped under your nose for two years. So damn straight I am going to keep complaining about the smell.
Unregistered wrote:Oh and for all the people saying "get over the N97" - it's easy to say when you're not tied to the friggin thing for a 24 month contract. If someone farts, you get out of the way and stay away from that person. An N97 on contract is like having a turd taped under your nose for two years. So damn straight I am going to keep complaining about the smell.
That'll really help you.
Anyone who signed for a 24 month contract on a device they don't like really only has themself to blame. Why did you do it?
I wouldn't sign a 24 month contract for anything. I wouldn't hand over a single penny for a phone I hadn't evaluated.
I find Andy letter 100% correct and give good description of current situation!! Nokia collapsing and many people lost their faith in Nokia. It will be very hard for them to convince people buy N8 and get same problems in high price phone.
Nokia should release Symbian ^4 tomorrow or they will be out of the market very soon.
OVI maps - maybe works in England or west Europe, but outside of this area, simply forget it.
My last Nokia was E71, and change to HTC H2. Definitely, WM6.5 is not best OS, but solid, stable and HTC hardware is AMAZING; Nokia has nothing to compare with this quality and power device. Also, N8 specs are not promising much.
Nokia lost 50% of market share down in Israel, and is not surprising at all.
Isaac
I don't think this 'story' has anything to do about the N97 and the current S60 v5 UI.
I think it has everything to do with Steve trying to win some credibility back.
In the past weeks we've seen articles by Steve such as his 'journalistic method' piece where he explained further about the AAS review of the N97, the 'cavaets' and firmware excuse applied so that really, AAS did say that the N97 was crap from the start.
Now this. Now no disrespect to Andrew - a great piece well written - but I don't know you from Adam. Which seems to be another Modus Operandi from Steve - when you banged on and on about something (let's say, ooh resistive screens) and you finally realise which way the wind us blowing, roll out an 'expert' with impressive credentials and let them extol the virtues of that technology. You at least take the credit for bringing said expert's opinion to a greater audience.
Listen to The Phones Show to see how Steve has gone from being the rah-rah boy for the N97 (as his everyday phone) to something he could only recommend to his 'geek' friends.
I'd rather the AAS team admit publically and quite loudly that either through inaction or wearing too many rose-tinted glasses, totally screwed up their review and coverage of the N97 and claw back credibility in time for the N8 launch.
@Morph: Steve has no credibility problem, there are a few over-verbal whingers who don't agree and use this whole "apologist" thing as a stick, but they are the ones with the credibilty problem.
On balance, I've found only facts.
Otherwise, the whole thing is taken too seriously, and it really is no big deal.
morpheus2702 wrote:when you banged on and on about something (let's say, ooh resistive screens)
Eh? All I EVER wrote on this subject was a piece pointing out (in great detail) that both types of touchscreens have pros and cons. http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/Resistive_vs_Capacitive_the_invisible_tech_war_in_which_both_opponents_can_win.php Hardly 'banging on'?
Listen to The Phones Show to see how Steve has gone from being the rah-rah boy for the N97 (as his everyday phone) to something he could only recommend to his 'geek' friends.
The (subtle) change in my N97 stance has been because external factors have been changing since the start of 2010. From Oct to Dec 2009 I absolutely stand by my view. Since then, Nokia has released update after runtime after app after patch, ALL of which insist on installing on C: and which have made the N97 untenable for non-geeks.
Hence my change in emphasis. Mind you, the N97 mini's still a decent device and immune to the disk C problems.
Nokia really tried to make symbian the best ,but it as not improved for along time,an Nokia were expecting nobody else to release better software than Symbian,but got it wrong an because of the big name at Nokia nobody would switch to other mobiles ,but now the Anroid an Apple phones becoming more faster an easier to use,Nokia as really got to make the N8 an Symbian3 software on it really more faster an simply to use,Nokia now under pressure an brought this own pressure on themselves,an hope the Big shake up at Nokia gets them more competitive in the mobile market like they used to be,Nothing outstanding since the N95
Steve
You've made a 'subtle' change with reference to resistsive vs. capacitive too.
Your 'pros and cons' reply was the standard response to whenever the issue was raised before, certainly when people were saying that the N97 as the flagship phone, should have had a capacitive screen.
Of late (in a recent Phones Show Chat I believe) you've said that a modern UI is better off with capacitive screen. When the review of the N8 appears, will you still be publishing the 'pros and cons' with reference to its capacitive screen?
As for the N97, you say that the firmware patches have actually made the machine worse? Surely then this would support the notion that all phones should be reviewed as are when they come out, not in the expectation of future firmware releases and the usual caveats applying?
morpheus2702 wrote:SteveYou've made a 'subtle' change with reference to resistsive vs. capacitive too.
Your 'pros and cons' reply was the standard response to whenever the issue was raised before, certainly when people were saying that the N97 as the flagship phone, should have had a capacitive screen.
Of late (in a recent Phones Show Chat I believe) you've said that a modern UI is better off with capacitive screen. When the review of the N8 appears, will you still be publishing the 'pros and cons' with reference to its capacitive screen?
As for the N97, you say that the firmware patches have actually made the machine worse? Surely then this would support the notion that all phones should be reviewed as are when they come out, not in the expectation of future firmware releases and the usual caveats applying?
What is with this anally retentive nit-picking vendetta?? Morpheous is just being plain awkward/argumentative.
morpheus2702 wrote:Your 'pros and cons' reply was the standard response to whenever the issue was raised before, certainly when people were saying that the N97 as the flagship phone, should have had a capacitive screen. Of late (in a recent Phones Show Chat I believe) you've said that a modern UI is better off with capacitive screen.
Oh, I prefer capacitive too, given the choice. But having seen the robustness and climate tests that all Nokias have to go through, I absolutely understand the reasons why they've mostly chosen to use resistive in the past. Capacitive screens are just a pain when it's very cold or humid or dry or hot! 8-)
As for the N97, you say that the firmware patches have actually made the machine worse? Surely then this would support the notion that all phones should be reviewed as are when they come out, not in the expectation of future firmware releases and the usual caveats applying?
No, the firmwares are fine. I was referring to the 'optional extras' like Nokia Maps 3.3, Qt runtime, Nokia Messaging and so on.