Does the Blackberry Torch shine a light on potential N8 coverage?

clonmult wrote:You're right about Symbian itself not being known - people tend to just think of a Nokia phone. And its irritating that Android appears to be advertised heavily, whilst Symbian has never really been promoted to the public.

However, S^1 whilst clunky, is definitely *not* complicated. If you think its complicated, then thats possibly an issue with you, not the phone. Damn near everything on the 5230/5800/N97/etc is easy to use.

No geek factor required to use it, both my son and step-daughter (both under 10 years of age) have absolutely no problems at all with it.

Similarly, my ex wifes kids (18 and 20 years old) both chose Symbian phones - 5800 and Satio, and haven't ever found them difficult to use. And they're not exactly the cleverest people on the planet.

The only real elements of the S60 UI that suck are the icon design and the tap/double tap. The latter appears to have been resolved in S^3, and the former can easily be sorted with a theme.

Totally agree. I bought an E71 a while back solely because I needed a solid phone that did VoIP well. Neither the iPhone or Android phones did or still do VoIP well. Incidentally, if the N8 doesn't do VoIP then it'll be a dud for me and I'll pick up an N900 cheap next.

I'd come from an SE p910i UIQ phone and a second handset just for VoIP (Pirelli phone - awful but did VoIP ok)

I'd always hated Nokia's S60 UI instead of UIQ but the E71 reluctantly fit the bill. The default theme on the E71 was absolutely awful. Really Windows95 era awful. I replaced it with 'Touch Vista (7s) - E by t7'. I think it was a free theme from http://www.tehkseven.net/ and it's miles better to look at. Apart from that the settings on the phone CAN be complicated but then it does so much more than iPhone and Android phones so it's no wonder the settings can appear complicated. I often think the simplicity in the UI that is a major point for the iPhone is just because it doesn't do much... without an app.

One of the kids has a 5230. That came with a slightly better theme by default but still not as nice as the themes from tehkseven.

Stick a decent theme on (Nokia, employ tehkseven!), sort out the double-tap issues and maybe hide some of the more esoteric settings like SIP stuff behind an advanced settings tab and you'd be hard pressed to make a case that Nokia's UI isn't that far behind iOS or Android.

Unregistered wrote:I'd always hated Nokia's S60 UI instead of UIQ but the E71 reluctantly fit the bill. The default theme on the E71 was absolutely awful. Really Windows95 era awful. I replaced it with 'Touch Vista (7s) - E by t7'. I think it was a free theme from http://www.tehkseven.net/ and it's miles better to look at. Apart from that the settings on the phone CAN be complicated but then it does so much more than iPhone and Android phones so it's no wonder the settings can appear complicated. I often think the simplicity in the UI that is a major point for the iPhone is just because it doesn't do much... without an app.

One of the kids has a 5230. That came with a slightly better theme by default but still not as nice as the themes from tehkseven.

Stick a decent theme on (Nokia, employ tehkseven!), sort out the double-tap issues and maybe hide some of the more esoteric settings like SIP stuff behind an advanced settings tab and you'd be hard pressed to make a case that Nokia's UI isn't that far behind iOS or Android.

Some settings can be complicated, but those are rarely (if ever) used.

The theme makes a huge difference - when I compared my 5230 against the stepsons 5800, he'd stuck to the default theme with its lousy icon set. I'm running a theme "Only Black v2" - which is, as it says all black backgrounds, with simple greyscale icons. Looks beautiful. The default theme is very much a mickey mouse look.

This is what grates with the N8 demos so far - Nokia have spent all their time working on the nuts'n'bolts under the skin, but haven't done anything with the default theme. And thats what people seem to be focusing on in the blogs around - the initial look just isn't good, they see the standard icon set and automatically (or auto-stupidly?) assume its the same UI as before.

Denial my ass. I am not in denial, I am simply stating facts, which is - I can do everything I want with my (now old) Symbian^1 based N97, and I can do exactly the same things as I can on e.g. the Desire. The Desire has admittedly a smoother interface and, yes, the integration between functions and apps is better. But there are also annoyances on the Desire, esspecially after updating it to Froyo - I've had several app crashes after updating - seems there is some kind of incompatibility going on with Froyo (which is crap!).

Again, the Symbian^3 based N8 has the needed integration and smoothness missing from the Symbian^1 devices, and by the way, it beats the crap out of the Desire and Nexus in gfx performance, watch and cry:

http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare.jsp?benchmark=glpro11&showhide=true&D1=Nokia%20N8&D2=HTC%20Evo%204G&D3=Google%20Nexus%20One&D4=HTC%20Desire%20(Bravo)

And by the way, it seems RIM has really screwed up with their new Torch device. performance-wise it looks like a "N97 like fail", expect this is over a year later, and Nokia has picked pace in the meantime but not RIM:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/04/blackberry-torch-review/

Now watch how Nokia will soar past RIM and go head-to-head with Android and iOS, which Symbian^3 and Meego is more than capable to do.

Again - denial my ass. Neeext.

Unregistered wrote:I love listening to these Symbian fanboys in denial. People vote with their wallets... If you haven't notice Android is making humongous headway. Can you say that about Symbian? Do you think spouting out in geeky phone forum will help? Most of your less geeky press will never mention a word about Symbian and all they hype sorrounds Android and iPhones. If there is mention of Symbian/Nokia it's usually negative press.

And this is the voice of an Android fanboi? Or a heavily US centric view?

People are currently voting with their wallets, in case you hadn't noticed.

Worldwide smartphone sales - which shows the wallet usage, shows that Nokia smartphone sales are only just beaten by the combined sales of Apple, Android and RIM devices.

Android is making huge headway, but now that just means we have 4 main contenders - Symbian, Android, RIM and Apple.

Although I've never been convinced that RIM are a true smartphone platform - more of an enhanced feature phone device. But then the definition of what constitutes a smartphone has always been somewhat vague.

kalel17 wrote:whoever thinks symbian is difficult needs a brain. We can sit here talking in these forums all day as techies and how symbian is doomed etc while the millions of non techies out there snap up symbian smartphones.

It isn't difficult to use, it is just aggravating to use. The lack of integration between installed applications is part of that. The phone's propensity to get lost in the background (requiring a keypress) is part of that.

Remember, the point of this article is how N8 is likely to be received by the press. "Good enough" simply won't be good enough to get positive press coverage. Torch looks to be a major improvement to the BlackBerry platform, and yet most of the coverage has been mixed at best. Nokia needs to hit it out of the park to make a splash. It isn't clear whether the N8 can do that.

clonmult wrote:Some settings can be complicated, but those are rarely (if ever) used.

This is what grates with the N8 demos so far - Nokia have spent all their time working on the nuts'n'bolts under the skin, but haven't done anything with the default theme. And thats what people seem to be focusing on in the blogs around - the initial look just isn't good, they see the standard icon set and automatically (or auto-stupidly?) assume its the same UI as before.

Eldar Murtazin's Mobile Review article back in June also put a damper on S^3 expectations.

Nokia really doesn't have much going for it and just makes things worst if they further downplay hardware. People tend to think one downplays what they lack.

With Rim you can excuse them a bit as they still have the perception they are an enterprise emailing device.

KPOM wrote:It isn't difficult to use, it is just aggravating to use. The lack of integration between installed applications is part of that. The phone's propensity to get lost in the background (requiring a keypress) is part of that.

Remember, the point of this article is how N8 is likely to be received by the press. "Good enough" simply won't be good enough to get positive press coverage. Torch looks to be a major improvement to the BlackBerry platform, and yet most of the coverage has been mixed at best. Nokia needs to hit it out of the park to make a splash. It isn't clear whether the N8 can do that.

Yeah, why aim for mediocrity or "good enough"? If you're going to compete, the whole point is to kick ass and take names.

KPOM wrote:Eldar Murtazin's Mobile Review article back in June also put a damper on S^3 expectations.

Eldar definitely hates Nokia though, and such a review of an early alpha/beta unit really shouldn't count for anything.

Unregistered wrote:Nokia really doesn't have much going for it and just makes things worst if they further downplay hardware. People tend to think one downplays what they lack.

With Rim you can excuse them a bit as they still have the perception they are an enterprise emailing device.

Doesn't have much going for it?

What is quite possibly a class leading camera, a GPU thats easily equal to, if not several times faster than the competition? Full multi tasking for any application, x-platform development with QT?

RIM are definitely an enterprise mail device that has somehow become popular with the average person - which is quite an achievement.

The problem is the N8 doesn't have a class leading camera as the iphone 4 has the most sensitive sensor and produces JPGs with the most detail/largest file size.

The SGX540 used in Samsung's Wave/Galaxy S/their own SOC is the fastest GPU. And even if Nokia magically reveals it uses same SGX540 core, it would do no go good as ARM11 doesn't have the floating point power to make good use of it. A good GPU needs to pair a good CPU or its left idling in 3D.

Cross platform development just means they are hoping developers come on board. Do you hear iOS/android developers talk about cross platform?

I was a Symbian/EPOC32 user since my first Psion 5 when it was just released (wish someone would make a redux of it with top-end specs!), but two months ago switched to Android (MyTouch 3G Slide). I can hardly begin to describe how much more enjoyable it has been than my previous Nokia with S60v3. More useful, integrated, expandable, intuitive, consistent and just plain more FUN. Google Navigation is fantastic and the developer support is astonishing...and astonishingly easy to access through the Android Marketplace. My phone calendar and tasks are synced continuously with my Google Calendar (which recently received a major facelift) and apps are being updated all the time...and Android notifies me of their availability. I was a staunch defender of Nokia but now feel like I was living in the dark ages! To be fair, I have never used any of the touch versions of Symbian, but at this point it would take a lot to make me switch back to Nokia. I do wish them well, and the N8 looks like a step in the right direction.

clonmult wrote:People are currently voting with their wallets, in case you hadn't noticed.

Worldwide smartphone sales - which shows the wallet usage, shows that Nokia smartphone sales are only just beaten by the combined sales of Apple, Android and RIM devices.

The problem is that while Nokia reigns supreme in the low-end smartphone market (which helps fill the smartphone marketshare pie chart), it does poorly in the money-making, high-end market.

But then the definition of what constitutes a smartphone has always been somewhat vague.

Agreed and that re-emphasises a previous point. Most Nokia S60 smartphones are sold to the general public as "dumbphones". For example, I reckon that the majority of people who purchase the �99 Nokia 6120 are simply using it to make phone calls, send SMSs and take the occasional photo. They won't be setting it up for push email or downloading apps and games from the Ovi Store.

RIM are definitely an enterprise mail device that has somehow become popular with the average person - which is quite an achievement.

I think there are three main reason why average consumers buy Blackberries:

1. Form factor. I love it. If you want to bang out an email or SMS, nothing beats a physical keyboard and I think the portrait QWERTY form factor is brilliant. I think this is why devices like the E71 or Samsung Blackjack have also sold very well.

2. The (mis)conception that if you want email on your phone, you need to get a Blackberry.

3. Reputation. For years, Blackberries are seen as the device to have if you have made it in the business world. I get a feeling from people that I know that it is a bit of an "aspirational" device.

I think the Torch and OS 6 is an evolutionary step in the BB world. Nothing exciting or revolutionary and I think that is why media attention has been pretty low-key. If I had to sum up the Torch and OS 6 in one world, it would be "meh".

What is quite possibly a class leading camera, a GPU thats easily equal to, if not several times faster than the competition? Full multi tasking for any application, x-platform development with QT?

The camera (and its xenon flash) is the only reason I would consider the N8 as my next phone.

I doubt the N8's GPU is going to be faster than the one found in the iPhone 4 or the majority of other high-end smartphones on the market. Plus what use is a super-powerful GPU if there are no apps which can take full advantage of it.

Desktop-style multi-tasking? Meh. Not a significant issue for most consumer if an application is written to save its state during shutdown.

Cross platform development? When Nokia talks cross-platform development, they're talking about Symbian and Meego. Not exactly an advantage in most developer's eyes.

If I write an app using the QT SDK, will I be able to compile it for Windows Phone 7, Apple iOS, Android, Blackberry OS or Web OS? No.

Unregistered wrote:The problem is the N8 doesn't have a class leading camera as the iphone 4 has the most sensitive sensor and produces JPGs with the most detail/largest file size.

The SGX540 used in Samsung's Wave/Galaxy S/their own SOC is the fastest GPU. And even if Nokia magically reveals it uses same SGX540 core, it would do no go good as ARM11 doesn't have the floating point power to make good use of it. A good GPU needs to pair a good CPU or its left idling in 3D.

Cross platform development just means they are hoping developers come on board. Do you hear iOS/android developers talk about cross platform?

Have you seen a side-by-side comparison of the N8 against the iPhone 4? Of course not, no-one has (apart from some inside Nokia). So your comments are useless.

Since when is having "largest file size" any indicator of quality? I've taken some similar pics with both my DSLR (10mp) and compact (12mp, but set to 10mp). Surprisingly, the files from the compact were typically 50% larger than that off the DSLR. And there was absolutely no doubt as to which took better pictures.

The GL benchmark comparison between the N8 and the Galaxy S can be seen at http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare.jsp?benchmark=glpro11&showhide=true&D1=Nokia%20N8&D2=Samsung%20i9000%20Galaxy%20S

Overall it looks fairly evenly matched.

Doesn't look matched to me especially if you know what each test means.

I guess your comment about the N8 having a class leading camera is about as useless as my iphone 4 has the most sensitive sensor.

The only problem with that is you can look up the exact sensitivity of the sensor part Apples uses on OVT's site. On the other hand you look up every 12 meg 1.75 �m non backside illuminated on every sensor manufacturers and you can find non of them happen to match the OVT part.

davekolmer wrote:I was a Symbian/EPOC32 user since my first Psion 5 when it was just released (wish someone would make a redux of it with top-end specs!), but two months ago switched to Android (MyTouch 3G Slide). I can hardly begin to describe how much more enjoyable it has been than my previous Nokia with S60v3. More useful, integrated, expandable, intuitive, consistent and just plain more FUN. Google Navigation is fantastic and the developer support is astonishing...and astonishingly easy to access through the Android Marketplace. My phone calendar and tasks are synced continuously with my Google Calendar (which recently received a major facelift) and apps are being updated all the time...and Android notifies me of their availability. I was a staunch defender of Nokia but now feel like I was living in the dark ages! To be fair, I have never used any of the touch versions of Symbian, but at this point it would take a lot to make me switch back to Nokia. I do wish them well, and the N8 looks like a step in the right direction.

Your post sums up my experience totally. I too came from S60v3 (E72) and while the phone could do everything the other phones can, the experience can be horrible. I purchased a Nexus One in June and I am extremely happy. If MeeGo can deliver then I will think about returning to Nokia.

Symbian is so complicated and unneccessary, compared to android that in itself is the problem, who cares what symbian has to offer it its so labourious and difficult to set up and it is, who cares how good the N97 might be now 90% of people who bought it have patched it hacked it or updated it they've binned it only us geeks or wanna be geeks do that.

Come on nokia make a simple to use os and put it on a p910i like hardware

I'm so over the arguments presented against symbian especially from US subscribers who seem brainwashed by some close-minded tech media and enslaved by the 4 main local carriers there.
Arguably, iPhone, Android are prettier to look at with higher res. screens- that's it. Their phones are higher spec'd because these OSs demand more in terms of processing power.
Symbian is lean, truly mobile, the most customizable and has just as many apps out there. You don't believe me? Hit up websites like www.dotsis.com or www.symbiantalk.net to see what some power users are putting their phones through. The Android market place and Apple app stores were easy to organize because they didn't have to sift through 7-8 yrs of apps to approve and include in their respective stores, they started from scratch. If all gr8 apps the Handy collection, Smartphoneware collection, Psiloc, etc. could were included in the Ovi store, there would be a significant increase in downloads.
So much has to be done to these other OSs to get simple user functions: like hacking an iPhone or installing a 3rd party app to change the wallpaper or be able to send and receive files via bluetooth; rooting an Android device to get Wifi tethering and other basic functions. Joikuspot has been around for years on symbian and winmo i think.
Symbian^3 looks set to deliver with the fastest processor ever on a Symbian device and a GPU to go with that. Sure I wish the screen was a higher resolution and that it had a bigger battery, but the phone isn't out yet. Who knows? Maybe it will be satisfactory. AMOLED is great to look at and the phone has been demonstrated to play .mkv files at 720p. Go ahead, admit it, that's impressive stuff.
So while symbian has lagged in the US market, it's pretty much been appreciated everywhere else with the exception of certain types of users who do more web browsing and media consumption than anything else. So I understand the switch to other platforms but for those who haven't as yet, wait for some real life user reviews on the N8. It looks as promising and as game changing as the N95 in 2006 and coming from the same designer, I'm optmistic that I didn't sell my N86 and resurrect my N82 in anticipation for nothing