Psion have dissolved any relationship with Symbian by selling its stake to Nokia. This gives Nokia a 63% share of the company and puts then firmly in control. Wheather this is a good thing for Symbain and the smartphone market as a whole is sure to be hotly debated. More details con be found in this Reuters article.
Psion sells stake in Symbian to Nokia!
It's probably a good deal for Psion. They can now release some much needed cash for Psion Teklogix.
But I am afraid that, unless Nokia does something quickly to spread out the shareholding, it is horrible news for Symbian.
Since its founding, the success of Symbian has been built on two pillarstones:
- Superior product due to balanced multi-vendor influence
- Balanced shareholding and hence widespread acceptance
These two are dependent on each other. Now when one is gone, the risk is that the other will be eroded over time. So Nokia, get new shareholders in or you will shoot yourself in the foot!
cheers
Martin
Good point Martin.Unfortunately i don't see Nokia spreading anything out.Why would they buy off Psion in the first place?I think this is really bad for Symbian.I wouldn't be surprised if the next Sony Ericsson p2000 device runs on Palm,PocketPC or even Linux.
Actually this does Symbian a disservice. Symbian has done an amazing job of maintaining its own course despite tugs in various directions from the phone vendors and other partners.
Indeed, I attended one of the Symbian DevDays last year and it was quite clearly a Symbian event first, that other vendors were participating at.
Symbian has demonstrably indicated that it is its own boss, but welcomes the support and advice of the phone vendors (and other parts of the community).
BTW I have found heard that there will be more DevDays this year - I suspect that Symbian would be interested in getting feedback from anyone with regard to location or content - you can try mailing [email][email protected][/email] (it worked last year!)
http://www.symbian.com/press-office/2004/pr040209c.html
Confirmation from Symbian
I know the immedate response to this from many will be ganshing of teeth (and I'm equally sure some of the more pro-MS Smartphone media will see this as the death of Symbian etc etc..).
The reality of this is that it changes very little. The overall impact is likely to strengthen Symbian.
In terms of negative impacts the fact that one company is gaining a larger portion of the Symbian pie may be of concern to some of the other shareholders. However I'd be suprised if this happened without their knowledge (one suspects major share holding changes like this have to be passed by others first).
Moreover this shows Nokia has a lot of cofidence in Symbian. Nokia very obvisouly nail their colours to the Symbian mast. This probably reflects Nokia's strategy of moving Symbian down into some of its mid and low range phones. (Symbian powered Series 40 equivalent?) .
For Series 60 liscensees its no big deal. Afterall they already get their UI from Nokia. This wont raise any concerns at Sendo, Siemens etc.
UIQ may be in a different position, but it has considerable support from other liscensees and shareholders. Not to mention the fact that several UIQ devices are due from the like of BenQ, Sony-Ericsson, Motorola, and others.
And the reality of the situation is that this remains a shareholding. This is not a takeover as some have suggested. The possibility of an IPO remains. Symbian are still an indepdent entity and as the previous poster mentioned have a long track record of maintaining that.
See also this by Richard Bloor: http://www.symbianone.com/news/020904rb_1.html
In the medium term, SEMC and the other licensees won't go to Palm or WinCE because you can simply do more with Symbian than you can with OS's which have tighter control on the source.
Further, Nokia has stated it will support Symbian diversity. Until it proves differently, I am inclined to believe them.
The reason licensees of Series60 and of Symbian have made this choice is that it is a better alternative to MSFT. The change of ownership doesn't alter that.
Wait for it. Symbian's role in the market is going to get better as a result of this, not worse.
The reality of this is that it changes very little. The overall impact is likely to strengthen Symbian.
Unfortunately, I think that is wishful thinking. On the contrary, the very exercise of shares changing hands does not have *any* strengthening effect on Symbian. Instead, it wrecks one of the two pillarstones that have formed the Symbian we know today, the balanced shareholding. Symbian will now be a subsidiary of Nokia, non plus ultra.
Moreover this shows Nokia has a lot of cofidence in Symbian.
This is something that does not need to be shown more than it already is. It is the confidence of the *other* licencees that is at stake, not Nokia's.
For Series 60 liscensees its no big deal. Afterall they already get their UI from Nokia. This wont raise any concerns at Sendo, Siemens etc.
On the contrary I think it will. The UI is less than 20% of the code. They went into it when Symbian shareholding was relatively balanced. Now the same company, who is also a competitor, controls the OS *and* the UI. If I was Siemens, Sendo etc I would be extremely worried for the long term and prepare and/or maintain escape routes/second sources.
UIQ may be in a different position, but it has considerable support from other liscensees and shareholders. Not to mention the fact that several UIQ devices are due from the like of BenQ, Sony-Ericsson, Motorola, and others.
Of course, in the short term the ball will roll, but over time UIQ will not be that much different from Series 60.
And the reality of the situation is that this remains a shareholding. This is not a takeover as some have suggested.
I think you are a bit confused. Becoming a controlling shareholder *is* equal to a takeover in any definition of takeover I have seen in the business world. What you are talking about is how this will reflect in the actual operations. Despite reassurements from both David Levin and Nokia, this *remains* the big questionmark.
The possibility of an IPO remains.
Yes, we can of course hope for that, but it depends on how many shares that will be floated. The second hope is that Nokia would realise that it would serve them better in the long run if they bring in more shareholders and reduce their own to somewhere around 30%-40%. Candidates: NTT (w or w/o DoCoMo), Kyocera, Samsung, L&G, Ricoh, Hitachi, Panasonic...
Symbian are still an indepdent entity and as the previous poster mentioned have a long track record of maintaining that.
This was maintained as long as the shareholding was balanced. Now, no-one believes that Symbian will instantly make a U-turn or L-turn because of the changed shareholding, but clearly one shareholder can outvote all the others, making Symbian effectively a *subsidiary* of Nokia. The effect of this will be increasingly noticable. If you do not fear this, please point to me any case in corporate history where one company becoming a subsidiary of another company in the same marketplace has not had an effect!
This is not the "death of Symbian", but it is very worrying for the future. I understand that some Symbian loyalists might have this "whatever happens to Symbian cannot be wrong" mentality and keep on defending every change. When the chips were down for Symbian in 1999-2001, Odin failed, Conan failed, R380 was really a non-starter, Nokia announced pact with Palm, Ericsson and Siemens announced pacts with MS, Sharp went in, then out, Symbian made big headlines with Kenwood (!) came in, 9210 didn't meet expectations and everyone kept saying "yeah the pictures look good, but where are the devices?" I was never worried because the underlying structure of the initiative appeared sound, strongly vision driven and balanced compared to the alternatives Palm and MS. Now I cannot be anything else than worried.
cheers
Martin
With regards to controlling shareholder / takeover. I'm no expert in these areas, but because Symbian is not a publically held company the usual conventions are different. Nokia has the controlling interest in this situation as I understand it. Symbian do not suddenly become controlled by Nokia.
The important thing to remember here is that the operation of Symbian is dissimilar to publically listed companies. An example of this from the Symbian website:
Non-executive directors, representing each shareholding company, sit on Symbian's Supervisory board. Their role is to set the standard licensing terms and conditions for Symbian OS.Licensing and technological issues are dealt with by Symbian senior managers on the Operational board, ensuring a clear distinction between Symbian ownership and management.
This suggests despite their shareholding that Nokia will not have a majority of non-executive directors.
--
I honestly dont believe that this will chnage the other liscensees attitude. While I suspect the structure of Symbian was an attraction they have made a commitment and it remains the most attractive option.
The alternative for comapnies like Siemens and Sendo for example are Microsoft (and I can't see that happening with Sendo ever!). Symbian remains a superior product in terms of OS.
The fact that differentiation is going to take place on the hardware level has being coming for a long time.
Of course I suspect I am one of the 'defend Symbian whatever' people that you refer too. Possibly! While I do think there are concerns with a deal like this I am sure that this will have little real impact.
I think some of the concerns about other liscensees will be addressed in the forthcoming months. And I rather think we'll be seeing some interesting Symbian news at 3GSM...
However today is rather a sad day for me. I got interested in Symbian because I was a Psion user - its rather strange to whatch that connection dissappear.
This suggests despite their shareholding that Nokia will not have a majority of non-executive directors.
It was clear from the statements issued by Psion that David Potter (founder and Chairman) and Alistair Crawford (CEO) would resign from the board and be replaced by Nokia representatives.
Symbian remains a superior product in terms of OS.
On this I competely agree. But what made Symbian become what it is? Balanced shareholding! Equal input from major players in the marketplace!
Would a company with a smaller share in Symbian contribute as wholeheartedly as before when they know that from now on the main beneficiary is not an ex-PDA vendor, or a roughly balanced community as before; but their fiercest competitor?
This means that the factors involved in creating what Symbian is today are suddenly crumbling.
Of course I suspect I am one of the 'defend Symbian whatever' people that you refer too.
We're in the same club. In fact I referred to myself as well.
However today is rather a sad day for me. I got interested in Symbian because I was a Psion user - its rather strange to whatch that connection dissappear.
Same with me. I came via Psion like so many others. Well Psion is still a licencee, so from that perspective it is not all dark. I am personally still engaged in the netBook Pro Series 90 inititative...but more about that some other time.
cheers
Martin
Come on Martin.....
you can't dangle an off the cuff comment like
I am personally still engaged in the netBook Pro Series 90 inititative...but more about that some other time
and leave it there! ! 😃
What are you upto?
When will it be ready and will it be available in the shops or is this a personal project?
My PDA requirements are hoped to be meet by the next series 90 communicator and this may be just the thing! So come on and spill the beans 😊
Cheers
Jago
Well I said this would be hotly debated 😉
My initial opinion was very negative.
However I to came from a Psion background but thinking about it the Psion I knew does not exist. Technicaly Psion took over Teklogix but the outcome feels the other way around. Psion Teklogix obviously have no active interest in using Symbian software in its hardware, so is it a good thing for them to be have a major interest in the company?
I to am dubious about Nokia having a majority holding in Symbian and the effect this will have on the way Symbian is viewed by the industry as a whole. I'm especially concerned about what will happen with UIQ but I suspect Rafe is correct and we are worring too much.
On the positive side Symbian may get more funding from its remaining shareholders to push along development of the OS as a whole. I suspect Psion were unwilling (if not unable) to put much more money into the venture.
I think all we can do is wait and see!
All - please do not confuse balance in shares as balance in influence!
The stated intention is that Symbian will continue to be independently run - there is no intention to change the internal organisation of Symbian - the only change is that Psion have approached Nokia to buy out their stake.
It seems to me that this does not really have much to say about Symbian and Nokia but more about Psion.
I do have to agree that it seems a long way from the days when Psion invented the PDA.
However, I have no reason to disbelieve that Nokia want Symbian to be independent (afterall, they're not Microsoft!) since this brings Nokia far more benefits than bringing it in-house. Any other comments are mere speculation.
Don't know if this was a good or a bad move for us Symbian software programmers. My understanding/hope was that Symbian becomes a mobile phone OS and not only a Nokia OS, therfor it can provide Symbian software engineers jobs in different companies/countries. More Symbian companies = more interesting jobs, I thought. Now I wonder if more companies try to migrate to Linux (I already worked on Motorola phones, it's OK, a bit crashy), rather than buidling on Symbian. In the future, will we see Siemens and SonyEricsson as strong Symbian partners or will they move away in the end?
So far I can not understand this decision. Is there any background information why Psion went away and why no other partner (SonyEricsson) wants to be a stronger Symbian player? Feel free to join IRC channel #symbian.com on IRCnet and chat about this (hope advertising is OK, applologies, I am rather on IRCnet than where #allaboutsymbian was hosted in the past).
Btw, right now this news seriously affects my current job search... I am changing Symbian projects soon and will now think twice if I better go to Finland.
Originally posted by martinharnevie
Of course, in the short term the ball will roll, but over time UIQ will not be that much different from Series 60.
I don't understand what that's supposed to mean... 😕
The two UI's cater to different markets and aren't in direct competition as I see it. Not only in appearance and applications (software) are they very different, but most importantly in hardware, with one UI being pen based and the other not. Not to mention screen size/resolution.
As of now the three UI's used - Series 60, UIQ, and Series 80/90 are all very different, and will continue to attract different user groups. Series 60 will cater to people wanting a 'normal' mobile phone packed with features. UIQ to the lightweight PDA user. And Series 80/90 to the heavy PDA user almost looking to replace the laptop.
By Series 80/90 I mean the rumoured new communicator. Don't know if it'll be using a modified version of the old Series 80 or the new '90 -found in the N7700... Speaking of the 7700, I have no idea who that beast might cater to... 😕 Don't see how it could possibly be any practical as a PDA, especially not as a phone, nor as an all-in-one media device (too expensive and impractical). Anyway, getting sidetracked...
What I'm saying is that I don't fear the future of UIQ as a result of Nokia buying out Psion. The UIQ based P800 was a success, and SE are struggling to meat demands with their new P900. Not to mention future UIQ devices from other vendors, like Rafe mentioned. I think there'll always be a demand for a middle-ground between Series 60 and Series 80/90 type devices, and that's exactly where UIQ fits in.
However, as SE and Nokia are such strong competitors when it comes to 'normal', non-Symbian mobile phones, I'm a bit worried that this might affect SE's choice of OS in the future. It all depends on Nokia's strategy forward, I suppose. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if they'd decide to take the "Microsoft route" forward... In that case they'd probably just adopt UIQ as their own.
It also looks as though Linux is trying to make a stronger hold on this market, which could be a nice alternative to Symbian, in my opinion, if Nokia do decide to "pull a Microsoft".
Originally posted by Raven
Originally posted by martinharnevie
Of course, in the short term the ball will roll, but over time UIQ will not be that much different from Series 60.
[B]I don't understand what that's supposed to mean... 😕
The two UI's cater to different markets and aren't in direct competition as I see it. Not only in appearance and applications (software) are they very different, but most importantly in hardware, with one UI being pen based and the other not. Not to mention screen size/resolution.
It was not said in reference to their positioning in the marketplace. The context was 'influence'. If Symbian is controlled by Nokia it also means that UIQ Technology is *also* controlled by Nokia. Thus, over time, the neutrality of UIQ is likely to be affected, why have some UIs under Nokia and another under Symbian when both have licencing strategies? Will UIQ be renamed to Series 70...?
In that case they'd probably just adopt UIQ as their own.
My point exactly.
It also looks as though Linux is trying to make a stronger hold on this market, which could be a nice alternative to Symbian, in my opinion, if Nokia do decide to "pull a Microsoft".
What Symbian has over Linux is that it is *complete*. Building on Linux will basically leave you in the wilderness. You have to iron out UIs, various communication stacks, resource prudence etc yourself, because those things are not intrinsically supported by Linux. However, we might see more and more phone manufacturers create alliances with equal participation (heard it before?) to build Linux based standards in those areas and thereby reduce development effort and time to market.
This *is* a real threat to post-Psion Symbian.
cheers
Martin
Originally posted by Raven
It also looks as though Linux is trying to make a stronger hold on this market, which could be a nice alternative to Symbian, in my opinion, if Nokia do decide to "pull a Microsoft".
"pull a Microsoft" LOL!!!
Has a single Linux smartphone been shipped? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Symbian, Palm and Windows Mobile have a sizable head start.
infoSync World:
Upon completion of the transaction, Nokia estimates that its share in Symbian will increase from the current 32.2% up to approximately 63.3%. The intended transaction is subject to clearance by the competition authorities and approval by Psion shareholders, while other shareholders also have proportional pre-emption rights to participate in the acquisition of Psion's shares.
If SE or other shareholders are worried they could always buy a proportional stake of Psion's shares.
If anything, this is a major win for Symbian.
Look at it like this - Nokia has publically stated (and bet its reputation) that Symbian will remain independent.
There will be a new chairman now that David Potter from Psion has stated he will step down after the sale (initiated by Psion, not Nokia - as has been reported separately Nokia is a reluctant buyer in this).
There are no announcements to say that Symbian will not IPO in the future.
Symbian will get support from Nokia and other licensees to ensure it can visibly carry out independent activity - in fact, Nokia will probably over compensate in this to be seen to do the right thing.
The new chairman will probably not be from Nokia to ensure the visible indepedence of the consortium.
All the licensees apparently have phones coming out this year - including fantastic Japanese FOMA phones (incidentally a region where Nokia is not involved either in UI or phone sales).
When you drill down into it, this may well cement the independence of Symbian.
Originally posted by wshwe
Has a single Linux smartphone been shipped? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Symbian, Palm and Windows Mobile have a sizable head start.
- Motorola is active with Linux in far east and targets mass market, e.g. Chinese market is big
- Palm? Don't they die?
Originally posted by brazilian
[B]If anything, this is a major win for Symbian.
Not at all. All the examples you mentioned are Symbian achievements based on the previous structure.
Look at it like this - Nokia has publically stated (and bet its reputation) that Symbian will remain independent.
IBM once stated that Lotus will remain independent...still Nokia might mean it...but that is *not* the main issue. Will the other shareholders be willing to contribute to Symbian with the same wholeheartedness as before now when Nokia is dominant - their fiercest competitor? No. Would discussions be with the same openness as before? No.
As a case in point; you can easily compare with the Eclipse programme. Until recently, IBM has had the controlling position. That's why Eclipse - despite repeated assurances from IBM that Eclipse would be run totally independenty - did not move and Java was falling behind .NET etc. IBM has finally realised that they need to restructure Eclipse and reduce their share for it to move forward. But a lot of damage has already been done. Enterprise Java could have been a much better position today if Eclipse had commenced along similar principles as Symbian.
Sorry, you cannot swipe shareholding imbalances under the carpet like that.
reported separately Nokia is a reluctant buyer in this).
This I am aware of. That's why I have some hope that Nokia will understand the issues and spread out the shareholding.
There are no announcements to say that Symbian will not IPO in the future.
Look, IPO does not mean anything in this context. IPO will give a market driven valuation of Symbian, not change the control.
Symbian will get support from Nokia and other licensees to ensure it can visibly carry out independent activity - in fact, Nokia will probably over compensate in this to be seen to do the right thing.
I really hope this is the case. But the only thing that can resolve the issue would be Nokia disposing shares to other shareholders.
The new chairman will probably not be from Nokia to ensure the visible indepedence of the consortium.
It was indicated that David Potter will be replaced by a Nokia representative. But this is probably less of importance. It is natural for the largest shareholder to provide the Chairman.
When you drill down into it, this may well cement the independence of Symbian.
Really? How?
cheers
Martin
I just hope that the initial idea will stay true:
...Finnish phone giant Nokia has taken control of Symbian , the mobile phone software firm it helped set up in 1998 to keep Microsoft at bay...
But then again...nokia becoming the dominant part in symbian itself...
Also an article on slashdot: Nokia Takes Control of Symbian
http://slashdot.org/articles/04/02/09/1733245.shtml
Originally posted by wshweThree that I'm aware of.
Has a single Linux smartphone been shipped?
The Motorola A760 GSM phone based on Linux in China is & has been shipping for a few months now.
Samsung is reportedly shipping since last December the SCH-i519 CDMA 1x Linux phone.
Apparently also some company called E28 Limited is also shipping a Linux CDMA 1x model called E2800 since last August.
I don't know how many have been sold, but shipping it is, and some have been sold & bought, I'm sure.
I also don't recall having seen them anywhere but China.
The A760 works anywhere where [E]GSM 800/1900 works.
All,
My bet is that most people contributing to this thread are from the outside looking in. In particular martinharnevie has been posting comments that argue with other views but are all based upon supposition.
Fact: Nokia has been approached by Psion to purchase its shares in Symbian
Fact: Symbian, by the nature of its provenance and governance is an independent entity of its shareholders - this has not been changed
Fact: Despite the shares changing hands, nothing has affected the day to day goals or operations of Symbian
Fact: Nokia has stated that Symbian will continue to remain independent
Fact: Other phone vendors will be shipping Symbian OS phones this year and have publically been supportive of Symbian this week
Everything else is based upon opinion and assumption and should be flagged as such!
brazilian,
Comments as of below:
My bet is that most people contributing to this thread are from the outside looking in.
Well, if anyone isn't, they would not reveal it. In any case, what we all share is a certain interest in a good future for Symbian OS and that this OS will continue to be the superior OS for smart mobile phones.
In particular martinharnevie has been posting comments that argue with other views but are all based upon supposition.
Many people here have agreed with my 'worries' which I have clearly declared as 'worries', nothing else. Do not misrepresent what I have said. And those worries are based on exactly the same facts as in your list, plus a few more that you have chosen to omit. But let's look into your list.
Fact: Nokia has been approached by Psion to purchase its shares in Symbian
Fact: Nokia has accepted to proceed on the matter and made public announcements to this effect.
Fact: Symbian, by the nature of its provenance and governance is an independent entity of its shareholders - this has not been changed
Fact: It has only been a couple of days since the announcement.
Comment: Given the short time it does not prove anything either way. The concern for the future remains. The worry is about the future, not the present and not the past.
Fact: Both Nokia and Symbian has been emphasising on the independent nature of Symbian.
Comment: This is a clear indication that they are also worried about it, or, at least, the market perception.
Fact: Despite the shares changing hands, nothing has affected the day to day goals or operations of Symbian.
Fact: It has only been a couple of days since the announcement.
Comment: It is unreasonable to expect otherwise, so this doesn't prove anything.
Fact: Nokia has stated that Symbian will continue to remain independent
Fact: Nokia has controlling share. Nokia is the main beneficiary. Nokia also enjoys the, by far, largest market share.
Comment: Hence, Nokia, is the, by far, most successful competitor in this marketplace. The worry is: will the other shareholders contribute as much to the Symbian furtherance as before now that Nokia is controlling?
Fact: IBM has recently chosen to radically reduce its share in Eclipse, because Eclipse was not convincing in the industry and marketplace as long as IBM was too dominant.
Fact: Other phone vendors will be shipping Symbian OS phones this year and have publically been supportive of Symbian this week.
Fact: It has only been a couple of days since the announcement.
Comment: It is unreasonable to use the fact that vendors have not suddenly aborted all ongoing device development as a 'proof' that nothing will change in the future. And it is unreasonable to make any assumptions based on devices that were just announced.
Comment 2: Kindly show evidence of the second part of your 'fact'. Which Symbian licencee and/or shareholder, apart from Psion, Symbian and Nokia, has made official supportive statements about the matter?
Everything else is based upon opinion and assumption and should be flagged as such!
Kindly point out any assumption that I have made. Furthermore, I have not forwarded any opinion whatsoever. Instead, I have expressed and clearly declared a deep 'worry' for the future of something I like very much, namely Symbian. This 'worry' is based on sound reasoning and comparison with other, similar, events in the information technology industry. And again, it has been clearly declared as a 'worry', not as an 'opinion' or 'prediction'. If you wish to question the reasoning behind it, do it with valid arguments, and we can have a good and fact based discussion about it.
But do you consider these 'facts' or 'opinions' (cuts from your various postings)?:
>>If anything, this is a major win for Symbian.<<
>>The new chairman will probably not be from Nokia to ensure the visible indepedence of the consortium.<<
>>All the licensees apparently have phones coming out this year - including fantastic Japanese FOMA phones<<
>>When you drill down into it, this may well cement the independence of Symbian.<<
>>It seems to me that this does not really have much to say about Symbian and Nokia but more about Psion.<<
No further comments necessary.
cheers
Martin
...exactly true which is why your opinions are completely based on supposition. The facts are as listed in my previous mail and you are choosing to make a negative interpretation of them - from a long way outside the situation.
BTW there are additional shareholders in Symbian who may choose to exercise their rights to some of the shares that Psion is selling - Nokia have said that they would accept the full amount if no other shareholders want to take up their option - this is how Symbian is governed! Any changes to this need to have the endorsement of the other shareholders - it cannot take place without their buy in (no matter who has more shares!)
Most of your other points seem to be contingent on the fact that the announcement was made recently - not really the basis for any kind of opinions then! I think Symbian and Nokia have made announcements of ongoing independence just to address those that choose to view this as a negative situation - my point in fact (if anyone actually read it propoerly) was to say that there are factual things that have taken place and that they are part of an ongoing process - any negative conclusions that you have chosen to make are your own suppositions (call them worries if you like) but are a result of your own extrapolations and not based on any actual information from those close to the situation.
BTW -
>>The new chairman will probably not be from Nokia to ensure the visible indepedence of the consortium.
Fact - this is part of the way the chairman is selected - there is a process that takes place to nominate the next chairman. It is a rolling activity and Nokia is not due to be the next one.
>>All the licensees apparently have phones coming out this year - including fantastic Japanese FOMA phones.
Fact.
>>It seems to me that this does not really have much to say about Symbian and Nokia but more about Psion.
Fact - quite clearly! I think you need to ask why Psion needed to realise this money (especially on the back of having sold Psion software last week as well!)
I understand concerns but really think that those without all the underlying information should qualify their concerns and not base them on groundless assumptions and fears - using the IBM example is frankly not even worth commenting on!
Dear brazilian,
This is my last installment. This is because you have converted this initially multi-party discussion into personal flaming.
...exactly true which is why your opinions are completely based on supposition.
I am merely stating facts and worries based on those facts. There are as many "suppositions" in my statements as there are WMDs in Iraq.
The facts are as listed in my previous mail and you are choosing to make a negative interpretation of them - from a long way outside the situation.
No I was adding some facts that you have omitted. And making a few logical deductions based on both "your facts" and "my facts".
As anyone that has read my postings in these and other forums, as well as some media in the past etc, can attest to, I have never made any negative statements about Symbian, even during the dark years. This is the first time ever I have expressed any worry about the future of Symbian. I think it is a well-founded worry. Many others, many of which are long time loyal to Symbian, express the same worry. I have browsed through many forums and media articles recently and see the same themes reappearing.
My worry is totally based on facts and only facts, and they do not contain any sort of supposition or opinion whatsoever. I find your disrespect for my discussion, combined with your apparent, and honestly quite stuck-up, belief that you-are-the-only-one-representing-facts, quite misplaced.
there are additional shareholders in Symbian who may choose to exercise their rights to some of the shares that Psion is selling - Nokia have said that they would accept the full amount if no other shareholders want to take up their option - this is how Symbian is governed! Any changes to this need to have the endorsement of the other shareholders - it cannot take place without their buy in (no matter who has more shares!)
I am perfectly aware how Symbian is governed and have already expressed my hope that what you say will indeed happen. I hope that Nokia will realise it is important for them as well. I have never, ever said that this is the death-knell of Symbian, but there are worries that cannot be ignored and need to be addressed.
Most of your other points seem to be contingent on the fact that the announcement was made recently - not really the basis for any kind of opinions then!
That is one reason why I am not expressing any opinions at all regarding the matter at hand. On the other hand, you are!
any negative conclusions that you have chosen to make are your own suppositions (call them worries if you like) but are a result of your own extrapolations and not based on any actual information from those close to the situation.
How can possibly a worry about something be interpreted as "negative"? You are one really confused chap. You are worried about your child because you care for her/him.
And please save us from kindergarten, you are meaning to say that you do not know the difference between "supposition" and "worry"? Here's a good link for you mate:
http://dictionary.reference.com/
or check the Spell:Thesaurus if you still have your 5mx.
And 'Extrapolation' is a method for making predictions. I am not making any predictions, therefore I am not interested in any extrapolations.
Based on the facts that have been published by officials representing the three parties close to the situation, namely Symbian, Psion and Nokia, let me again repeat the core of my statement:
I am worried that Nokia taking a controlling position in Symbian will impede Symbian's furtherance in the future and reduce its attractiveness in the marketplace.
This is my statement, and there is not a trace of any suppositions, extrapolations, predictions and/or opinions in this statement.
In addition, you have still not provided the sources for some of your stated 'facts' whose accuracy I questioned.
Fact - this is part of the way the chairman is selected - there is a process that takes place to nominate the next chairman. It is a rolling activity and Nokia is not due to be the next one.
Fact: David Potter has been Chairman since inception of Symbian. There is no rotating of Chairmen. This is not the EU.
I think you need to ask why Psion needed to realise this money (especially on the back of having sold Psion software last week as well!)
Which I did. The complete answer has been given by David Potter and Alistair Crawford in their video broadcast, see link at www.psion.com. I think they are fairly close to the situation...
But, I am interested, like most people here, in the future of Symbian, to which Psion only has historical relevance. They are still a licencee, but no-one believes that they will ever develop another Symbian OS device again, even though I know the netBook Pro Series 90 lobbyists are not giving up that easy...
IBM example is frankly not even worth commenting on!
Why so? Eclipse is dependent on the same corporate dynamics as is Symbian. Parallels between Eclipse and Symbian has been analysed many times before and by well known analysts. The Symbian corporate governance based on a many minority shareholders was used in the Eclipse discussions as an example how Eclipse could be run successfully. Part of the rationale for forming Eclipse was also the same as for Symbian; the need for an alternative to Microsoft, in this case in the area of enterprise middleware and Web-services infrastructure. All these similarities makes Eclipse a very relevant comparison indeed.
You could even compare with older constellations such as Taligent, but let's stay at Eclipse.
Finally, I have participated in, and hopefully contributed to, this discussion with a positive spirit and analytical attitude. I am genuinely intested in the furtherance of Symbian. And I am participating under my own name and not some pseodonym.
cheers
Martin
I agree that this should be terminated - especially since you confuse analytical discussion with name calling, an activity that you seem happy to indulge in.
If your issue had been expressed as:
"I am worried that Nokia taking a controlling position in Symbian will impede Symbian's furtherance in the future and reduce its attractiveness in the marketplace."
...in the first place, I would not have had very much to comment on, but the extrapolations you made to back this up were undeniably negative, and the public facts to hand do not back them up.
The use of IBM of an example is plainly not appropriate since this is a different set of companies and interactions.
BTW, while Psion was part of the consortium, it was agreed that David Potter would remain chairman since Psion did not make phones (and therefore could act neutrally). Now the situation is that it will revert to the agreed governance rules and the chairmanship will be rotating!
I have been careful not to make personal comments - although you have - so please refrain from a frank discussion turning into a slanging match.