Goodbye Nokia, welcome MS Smartphone

I am giving up. There is a new Microsoft Smartphone Audiovox SMT5600 (c500 in Europe) that has everything that Nokia is missing:
good design, size, strong battery (over 1000mAh), Stereo and it Windows CE Smartphone

Design....well that is personal,isn't it?Microsoft Smartphones need those bigger capacity batteries since Windows Mobile has a lot larger footprint then Symbian OS and need a faster processor for basic Smartphone operations.The faster processor drains more power from the battery thus it needs a higher capacity battery.

I agree with you on the counts of size,stereo output and i REALLY agree with you on the count price but i really don't see having Windows Mobile on my phone as an advantage.

You should have tried Symbian OS products from alternative manufacturers but Nokia,like the Siemens SX1 or the Sendo X.

Anyways,hope to see you again in the forums.

GhostDog wrote:Design....well that is personal,isn't it?Microsoft Smartphones need those bigger capacity batteries since Windows Mobile has a lot larger footprint then Symbian OS and need a faster processor for basic Smartphone operations.The faster processor drains more power from the battery thus it needs a higher capacity battery.

I agree with you on the counts of size,stereo output and i REALLY agree with you on the count price but i really don't see having Windows Mobile on my phone as an advantage.

You should have tried Symbian OS products from alternative manufacturers but Nokia,like the Siemens SX1 or the Sendo X.

Anyways,hope to see you again in the forums.

Ghostdog,

I am not big fan of MS, nobody is 😊. My favorite phone was Siemens S55(S56) because I could change the T9 dictionary and almost anything on the phone using just a hex editor. I also like Nokias because Nokia was was my first cell phone. But Nokias used to be better, they used to be innovative, cutting edge... These days are gone. Nowadays Nokia in desperate attempt to regain market share is spitting out "unfished", in my opinion products, ones that are lacking critical features but offer doubtul easthetic advantages (3650 and the latest releases or are just outright bulky like 6600/6620). Nokia is run like a sweathop, like they are not sure where they are going... Less number of new phones, more thought - this would be my advice to Nokia marketing crowd..

MS Smartphone 2003 offers Windows CE which translates into great interoperability with MS desktop products (sure we know why... but still)and a plethora of applications... On the other hand Nokia's syncing app simply sucks and you know it, even my Siemens S56 had a beetter one (xtndPC). Nokia's Bluetooth implementation is just plain terrible. Connectivity to PC via psedo "USB" - incredibely slow. MS phone has a "real" USB interface to the phone so transferring data is an easy and quick task. Battery life beats Nokia 6620 hands down... (verified) And all of this based on my experience with presumably BEST Symbian implementation i.e. Nokia 6620 with OS 7.0S...

It is nothing personal, we should not get stuck with a brand or OS becaue "we like it", it is not a matter of feelings or a sentiment, just cold calculation. Before you asnwer please take a good look at a 2003 Smartphone, check the user interface, availabale applications... It is NOT designed to be a gaming console but a business-oriented machine with some entertainment capabilities...

I understand Nokia's staff does not read this forum so I am preaching to the wrong crowd but I can't understant what NOKIA's marketing folks are doing during their business hours, 'cause their are getting awfully behind the pack on almost every aspect...

I ma not saying I won't be back. I am not getting married to M$, I just want to give Symbian and Nokia a chance, and an incentive, to get better...

BTW. Sound quality on NOKIA 6620 is much better than on MS Smartphone Audiovox 5600 (known in Europe as Orange SPV 500)

If you were looking for a business-oriented machine you should have waited for the 9300/9500.Like i said Symbian is not just Nokia,there are alternative,maybe a UIQ device like the SE P910 or the Moto A1000 would've suited you,the 6620 is not really the latest thing you know 😉

BTW:I can assure you that people from Nokia and other major Symbian phone manufacturers regularly visit this website.

GhostDog wrote:If you were looking for a business-oriented machine you should have waited for the 9300/9500.Like i said Symbian is not just Nokia,there are alternative,maybe a UIQ device like the SE P910 or the Moto A1000 would've suited you,the 6620 is not really the latest thing you know 😉

BTW:I can assure you that people from Nokia and other major Symbian phone manufacturers regularly visit this website.

Well, I am not sure. I thought Symbian on Nokia 6620 was the cutting edge 7.0 Symbian OS... At least at the time of its release there was no higher version on any phone. It was not a cheap phone either, with all the discounts I paid almost $300... which is a lot of money for a phone, right?

If NOKIA's people are visiting this site those are definetely not the folks from marketing. If they were we wouldn't see so many disappointments coming out of Nokia factories. 7610 with no stereo? no IR? No fast syncing with desktop? (USB) Why is 6600/6620 so big and heavy? Why designs such as 3650 are allowed to make it through the factory gate??? Why Nokia Suite and its BT implemention is so bad??? Do you know how much time I spent trying to set BT up only to discover that Nokia supports only specific brands, especially the one that they sold their business to and which makes $100+ BT cards????

It is ridiculus. No brains. Look at MS strategy: Windows Mobile in two flavors: 1) Palm-like PDAs with phone functionality - Windows CE (TREO) 2) Phone with PDA-like functionality Windows Mobile CE Smartphone Edition... They covered all the bases at once!!!

Whatever you say about MS you have admire their marketing skills and understanding of the market. And NOKIA? Overpriced behemoth like Communicator, too big for a phone and less PDA fucntionality than Palm or WinCE device... (look at treo's for example....).. Who is going to buy it???? It is already obsolete given everything that is out there already on the MS side....

I wish NOKIA the best but with these marketing geniuses at helm no wonder they loose market share on the phone side and cannot gain any on the PDA (Communicator) side. Well, they had some success with a gaming console with a phone i.e. ngage but how many PHONES WITH SERVICE you can sell to 10-18 years old?

Nokia could have a BIG success with 7610 but they CHOSE otherwise, they could make inrodes into the ever growing MP3 player market and already huge digital camera market.... They chose not too: no STEREO support, no support for external FLASH....

How do they manage to make so many mistakes???? And once again, I am not talking about the engineers, they are obviously good but about people who make marketing decisions such as feature sets or pricing.

I just bought Audiovox 5600 for $199 that has more features out of the box than 6620. In UK, Orange is giving them out to users for free as SPV C500. Why are they so cheap? Because the company that designed them (HTC Taiwan) sold the concept and manufacturing to at least 4 different companies.....
Talking about R&D csot effectiveness here.....

I do not know what is wrong with Nokia. It is not just ONE phone but they screw every and each time... They decided to market to kids who care about exchangable covers even though this is not where historically NOKIA's strength lies... Innovation and ergonomics were the drivers before... Instea they make 50 diffrent modles that differ in... plastic covers.

I could go on and on about what I found wrong with 6620 and given that 6600 has even less features it must be much worse.... I was hoping 6750 would be a better version of 7610 (STEREO) but no...Suprise, suprise....

Get an Orane SPV C500 in your hands and play with it for 15 minutes.. You will see the difference......

NOKIA's folks: get off of whatever you are smoking and get back to the drawing board....

duchski wrote:Overpriced behemoth like Communicator, too big for a phone and less PDA fucntionality than Palm or WinCE device... (look at treo's for example....).. Who is going to buy it???? It is already obsolete given everything that is out there already on the MS side....

I'm going to buy it. And trust me I'm not the only one. It certainly has no less PDA functionality than Palm or Windows Mobile, on the contrary. No current or announced MS or Palm smartphone can match the screen resolution of the Communicator range. It also has all the necessary PIM stuff built-in, as well as Word, Excel and powerpoint editors. Not to mention that it is a much more capable phone than Palm or MS smartphones will ever be. The 9500 might be on the larger side for some, but the 9300 is the size of a Nokia 6310.

I'm sure many of us would sympathise on your strong feelings about Nokia leaving out Stereo sound output in so many of their S60 phones. But no matter what you and I may think, Nokia knows what they are doing. Phones like the 7610 will sell very well, on the contrary of what you may think.

Like GhostDog mentioned, there are many alternatives to the 6620. No need to step over to the "dark side". 😉
If you like small S60 phones with Stereo sound output of the Nokia brand, then what about the 6630?

Raven wrote:I'm going to buy it. And trust me I'm not the only one. It certainly has no less PDA functionality than Palm or Windows Mobile, on the contrary. No current or announced MS or Palm smartphone can match the screen resolution of the Communicator range. It also has all the necessary PIM stuff built-in, as well as Word, Excel and powerpoint editors. Not to mention that it is a much more capable phone than Palm or MS smartphones will ever be. The 9500 might be on the larger side for some, but the 9300 is the size of a Nokia 6310.

Hey c'mon. You cannot compare Nokia to WinCE HP Journada which is pretty much a pint size PC with support for most of Windows apps...

Raven wrote:

I'm sure many of us would sympathise on your strong feelings about Nokia leaving out Stereo sound output in so many of their S60 phones. But no matter what you and I may think, Nokia knows what they are doing. Phones like the 7610 will sell very well, on the contrary of what you may think.

They do? Maybe. But Nokia could make 7610 much better just by adding a Stereo support to it... Why did they miss it? Why did they make 66X0 so bulky?

Raven wrote:

Like GhostDog mentioned, there are many alternatives to the 6620. No need to step over to the "dark side". 😉
If you like small S60 phones with Stereo sound output of the Nokia brand, then what about the 6630?

Like what? There is no other Stereo Symbian Nokia that I know of....

Well... I have to step over to the dark side. Nokia has dissapointed me. And this sentiment is mirrored worldwide if you follow current market share data: Nokia is loosing ground....

Check out Orange SPV C500, you may be surprised with what this very small phone can do. I was. To such an extent that I am getting rid of my two months old 6620.....

Honestly, check it out before you judge the Smartphone...

duchski wrote:Hey c'mon. You cannot compare Nokia to WinCE HP Journada which is pretty much a pint size PC with support for most of Windows apps...

Look, even though there are more available apps for Windows Mobile, doesn't make it the better PDA. The Communicators are in a whole other league and can be used for some real work. Those Windows Mobile devices are more comparable to Nokia 7710. Even then the Nokia is superior with a 640x320 screen resolution, excellent UI and tons of features.

Basically, the MS phones have 3rd party software going for them. And no wonder, WinCE has been around for ages with dozens of devices running it. Series 80 are only run by 92xx(i) which is 3 years old already. So currently there are only about 500 apps available for it, but with the release of 9500 and 9300 those numbers are expected to increase significantly. And there is also the question of just how many task managers etc. you really need. Lets say you have 3 different versions of an app for Symbian and 30 versions for PPC with the major difference only being the looks. Yes, choice is a good thing, but how much do you really need? And when does it start getting confusing?

They do? Maybe. But Nokia could make 7610 much better just by adding a Stereo support to it... Why did they miss it? Why did they make 66X0 so bulky?

Nokia know their markets. How do you think they became the market leader? And how do you think they've managed to hold that position for so many years?

Like what? There is no other Stereo Symbian Nokia that I know of....

Like I mentioned, the 6630 has stereo support. The N-Gage also has stereo MP3/AAC music playback. The Communicators (9500 and 9300) have stereo support (I think, not confirmed). The 7710 has stereo support.

Well... I have to step over to the dark side. Nokia has dissapointed me. And this sentiment is mirrored worldwide if you follow current market share data: Nokia is loosing ground....

Based on what reports? Nokia is still the supreme market leader. When Nokia start loosing some ground, what do they do? Yes, they come back even stronger by pumping out more phones. Nokia is a strong, innovative company, that's why they are still the market leader.

Check out Orange SPV C500, you may be surprised with what this very small phone can do.

I'm glad you've found something that suits your needs. 😊

Hey c'mon. You cannot compare Nokia to WinCE HP Journada which is pretty much a pint size PC with support for most of Windows apps...

Right, he meant the Journada 720 etc... Like N/A mentioned, those devices aren't classified as Pocket PCs or PDAs, but Handheld PCs. They were discontinued years ago. In fact I actually owned a Journada 720, and while it had a great keyboard, it was far too huge to fit in any pocket. And again, like N/A said, there was hardly any apps for it. It was also initially priced way too high for the average consumer. Which, in conjunction with its size, I believe was the reason for HP to discontinue the series.

Btw, N/A, do you know for sure whether or not the 9500 and 9300 have stereo sound output?

Raven wrote:Look, even though there are more available apps for Windows Mobile, doesn't make it the better PDA. The Communicators are in a whole other league and can be used for some real work.
Those Windows Mobile devices are more comparable to Nokia 7710. Even then the Nokia is superior with a 640x320 screen resolution, excellent UI and tons of features.

Buddy, you bought into Nokia's marketing hype, there are no TONS of features and Communicator is too big to be called a phone. It is a PDA with phone capabilities and a very poor at that. Nowehere near what is offered by Palm or WinCE based PDAs. There is already huge PDA market in the US and with current pricisng Nokia is not going to win many sales here.......

On other Nokias: they lack features, have major design flaws (mine 6620 is so wide it is difficult to press some buttons (call, task) and 6630 is no better) and most improtanlty are overpriced. I am glad Nokia is being beaten up by the Oriental tigers (LG, Samsung, NEC) maybe it will force them to think about the future (although still a leader in sales every year Nokia is loosing its market share )

I hope you will enjoy your communicator but before you but it look around...

PS I have no Idea whether Communicator has Stereo, it is hard to say since "business oriented" 6750 has not... Who knows what Nokia was thinking of designing Communicator.... The phone is so widely publicized that is going to be outdated when it is finally released here

N/A wrote:The old HP Jornada only runs Windows CE apps written for Windows CE Handheld. It will not run any Windows 1.x/2.x/3.x apps. It will not run any Windows 95/98/ME apps. It will not run any Windows NT apps. It will not run any Windows 2000 apps. It will not run any Windows XP apps. It will not run any Windows Mobile for Smartphones apps. And no Jornada can be used to make phone calls, as far as I know. Also, they're not made any more either. 😉

But most of the Desktop apps were already ported to WinCe so you have a familiar interface and compatibility.... Have you been to any computer store lately? it is full of WinCE devices, with and without phone capabalities... Every major PC maker has one out there........
This thread is about why any of current Nokia offerings is UNACCEPTABLE not why PC makers are replacing old models with new ones....

duchski wrote:Buddy, you bought into Nokia's marketing hype, there are no TONS of features and Communicator is too big to be called a phone. It is a PDA with phone capabilities and a very poor at that. Nowehere near what is offered by Palm or WinCE based PDAs. There is already huge PDA market in the US and with current pricisng Nokia is not going to win many sales here.......

This discussion is getting tedious because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You need to do some serious research, mate.

Nokia is not going to win many sales in the US? -No sh!t. -Who cares. The North American market is not that important. If I were to make some generalisations I'd say that Americans usually wont look twice at a cell phone unless they can get it for free on a cheap contract.

Palm and MS phones are selling rather well in the US though, but they're hardly selling at all in Europe and Asia. And the other way around - Symbian phones are selling like hot cakes in Europe and Asia, but not in the North American market. In the 3rd quarter of this year 3,732,030 Symbian devices were shipped world wide, which is 50.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. Now compare that with 1,503,950 Microsoft devices shipped during the same period, which is only 20.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. (source: http://www.canalys.com/pr/2004/r2004102.htm).
Do you now see that there is a huge market beyond the North American borders?

I recently read a report which stated that PalmOne (PalmSource has 16.9% market share) have shipped 1 million Treo 600 units worldwide. Do you know how many of those were sold in the US alone? -80%. This can be compared to Sony Ericsson's shipment of the P900, where the ratio would be the other way around of course. So, as we all know (or should know 😉), the P900 is far superior to the Treo - hence Europeans are the more intelligent consumers. 😃 :tongue:

Another generalisation from me would be that Americans like their things labeled "Made in America". That's probably why they keep buying Microsoft products and Motorola phones. Both of which, to me, are absolute cr@p.

I hope you will enjoy your communicator but before you but it look around...

Believe me I know what's out there.

Who knows what Nokia was thinking of designing Communicator.... The phone is so widely publicized that is going to be outdated when it is finally released here

Outdated? Compared to what?

Nobody seems to listen to my arguments around here, but I'll add my 2c anyways..

Until a Symbian device is shipped with seamless support for integration into a windows server business environment, Symbian is destined to become the Commodore of the 90s.

Yes Nokia/Symbian hold a huge marketshare, but they have not been in the same market as Microsoft until now, and we are seeing a steady increase in the market share of MS devices.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Symbian phones, but I also passionately loved my Amiga. Symbian/Nokia desperately need to capture the higher end business user market which is currently just developing right now. And right now, businesses are NOT purchasing symbian phones - they're purchasing MS phones because they're cheap, they're far easier to integrate, and the UI is familiar to users. The business market will be where this war is won/lost. Nokia know the cellular phone market, but they are relative newcomers to the mobile computer game, and Microsoft have years of knowledge and establishment.

Nokia have also made a huge mistake in limiting the compatibility of Ngage games to just the ngage platform. Sure if they were to open it up so all symbian devices could play the games, other manufacturers would be able to ride the wave, but that's what licensing is for! At least if they had a wide userbase of games users, they would be guaranteed a stranglehold of the youth market for a good while yet.

This discussion is getting tedious because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You need to do some serious research, mate.

Nokia is not going to win many sales in the US? -No sh!t. -Who cares. The North American market is not that important. ....

Wow, wow wow tiger... I do not know one global company that would say that the North American market is not important...

If I were to make some generalisations I'd say that Americans usually wont look twice at a cell phone unless they can get it for free on a cheap contract.

But of course. We are demanding. You should learn to do the same. Unless you LIKE keep paying too much for too little...

Palm and MS phones are selling rather well in the US though, but they're hardly selling at all in Europe and Asia.

Pretty much everything that is happening in the world of computing has been happening here, in the US. Not in Europe or Asia. I am not suprised. However, Ornage is making a bundle on Smartphone sales - they sell it as Orange SPV 500... Check their website...

And the other way around - Symbian phones are selling like hot cakes in Europe and Asia, but not in the North American market. In the 3rd quarter of this year 3,732,030 Symbian devices were shipped world wide, which is 50.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. Now compare that with 1,503,950 Microsoft devices shipped during the same period, which is only 20.2% of the worldwide mobile device market. (source: http://www.canalys.com/pr/2004/r2004102.htm).
Do you now see that there is a huge market beyond the North American borders?

Well of course there is. Keep in mind that MS phones are around for what? 2 or 3 years? 20% of sales is not bad considering that Smartphones are not cheap and aimed at specific user... Not bad at all... And as far as SYmbian phones are concerned... I had one 6620 Better then any Series 60 phone sold in Europe because equiped with EDGE and Stereo sound, and what? You can't even properly sync it with major messaging software i.e. MS Outlook... so much for a "business" appliance....
But I guess you can play games on it and put a nice app that will show the time in any place in the world.. WOW what an achievement...

I recently read a report which stated that PalmOne (PalmSource has 16.9% market share) have shipped 1 million Treo 600 units worldwide. Do you know how many of those were sold in the US alone? -80%. This can be compared to Sony Ericsson's shipment of the P900, where the ratio would be the other way around of course. So, as we all know (or should know 😉), the P900 is far superior to the Treo - hence Europeans are the more intelligent consumers. 😃 :tongue:

Of course you are.😊 Keep in mind that MS, Cray, Intel, Apple, Palm, Sun, IBM, HP are all American companies... You follow? Are you suprised Americans demand value and innovation rather than portable gaming consoles with exchangeable covers? That was always the case that Europe and Asia followed American lead in computing not the other way around...

Another generalisation from me would be that Americans like their things labeled "Made in America". That's probably why they keep buying Microsoft products and Motorola phones. Both of which, to me, are absolute cr@p.

Well I do not remember times where Motorola products were Made in the US of A.
They all made in Asia now. Who cares? I do not like Motorola. Could never really get the styling. They sell a lot cause they supply phones to compnay called Nextel that operates a non-GSM proprietary push-to-talk network. As far as Microsoft is concerned, well maybe it is crap but a very well selling crap 😊) I do not mind making such a crap as long as there will be someone willing to buy it... Thanks, world 😊

Believe me I know what's out there.
Outdated? Compared to what?

You are blinded by your sentiment to Nokia. C'mon guy, do no get married to a brand... We are talking about machines here...
Audiovox 5600 is my first Smartphone. I had Ericsson (crap), Nokia (decent), Motorola (crap), Nokia (decent), Siemens (excellent - S55), Nokia (6620 - definite dud) so I know a bit about phones and what to expect, which is exactly why I respected Nokia so much in the past and not so much today... Well if you are desining and sell phones like 3650, 6600, 6620, 6320 you really show lack of respect for your loyal customers...

By the way, a phone it is something that fits in your pants pocket without making you look indecent...
I have a VOIP app on my laptop but that definitely does not make it a phone. And so it does not Nokia Communicator...

duchski wrote:You are blinded by your sentiment to Nokia. C'mon guy, do no get married to a brand... We are talking about machines here...

I've had mostly positive experiences using Nokia phones as well. But I'm definitely _not_ married to any brand. The two best smartphones I've owned till this day were both made by Sony Ericsson.

By the way, a phone it is something that fits in your pants pocket without making you look indecent...
I have a VOIP app on my laptop but that definitely does not make it a phone. And so it does not Nokia Communicator...

It's the ye olde question of form vs. function... The 9500 isn't expected to appeal to the average consumer, it will be pitched mostly towards large corporations. The 9300 on the other hand is very much 'pocketable' (the size of a 6310) and is therefore expected to appeal to the general public.

/De gustibus non est disputandum

Raven wrote:I've had mostly positive experiences using Nokia phones as well. But I'm definitely _not_ married to any brand. The two best smartphones I've owned till this day were both made by Sony Ericsson.

It's the ye olde question of form vs. function... The 9500 isn't expected to appeal to the average consumer, it will be pitched mostly towards large corporations. The 9300 on the other hand is very much 'pocketable' (the size of a 6310) and is therefore expected to appeal to the general public.
/De gustibus non est disputandum

Well forget it. I had my share of problems with Nokia 6620 and that's enough.
As far as 9500 corporate appeal? I doubt it. Corporate world is based on MS software so MS Smartphone is the only logical choice.

Facts:
I own a 6620 and it syncs up fine with Lotus Notes and MS Exchange using the packaged "PC Suite". I have them both configured and interfacing with my 6620 without any problems.

I use Quickoffice from my phone to update documents and spreadsheets, as well as using other corporate apps. I even use Smart Profiles to read my calender and switch into "Silent" profile when I go into meetings and then switch back to a standard profile when the meeting is finished, all automatically.

I use movianVPN to access our corporate network from the 6620. Once connected I use various apps (ssh, secure telnet) to actually perform network tasks (rebooting servers etc.).

I also use my 6620 for all the entertainment apps as well (games, video etc.).

So, duchski, not a corporate device you say? I work for an american global company with close to a million employees world wide and use the 6620 to provide 24/7 support for the main data center (over 1000 servers).

Duchski, the facts in your world may not be the whole picture. You really shouldn't criticize you own shortcomings of knowledge because it is obvious you have limited knowledge of what the 6620 can do. Otherwise you would have been familiar with
interfacing the 6620 with corprorate networks.

Guess you're not the "power user" you thought you were.

Check yourself!

-

EinZtein wrote:Facts:
I own a 6620 and it syncs up fine with Lotus Notes and MS Exchange using the packaged "PC Suite". I have them both configured and interfacing with my 6620 without any problems.

I use Quickoffice from my phone to update documents and spreadsheets, as well as using other corporate apps. I even use Smart Profiles to read my calender and switch into "Silent" profile when I go into meetings and then switch back to a standard profile when the meeting is finished, all automatically.

I use movianVPN to access our corporate network from the 6620. Once connected I use various apps (ssh, secure telnet) to actually perform network tasks (rebooting servers etc.).

I also use my 6620 for all the entertainment apps as well (games, video etc.).

So, duchski, not a corporate device you say? I work for an american global company with close to a million employees world wide and use the 6620 to provide 24/7 support for the main data center (over 1000 servers).

Duchski, the facts in your world may not be the whole picture. You really shouldn't criticize you own shortcomings of knowledge because it is obvious you have limited knowledge of what the 6620 can do. Otherwise you would have been familiar with
interfacing the 6620 with corprorate networks.

Guess you're not the "power user" you thought you were.

Check yourself!

-

That's great. I am glad you work for a global company with a milion of emloyees, just hope it is not a Chinese government we are talking about here............
BTW. I had no idea there is a company with a milion employees..... You learn something new every day...
I am glad you can do so much with your 6620 with some 3rd party software.
All I am saying is that I can do ALMOST the same (no need for a ssh client here) on a MS Smartphone that is much smaller, lighter and has a better battery life...
I am also glad you got the Nokia suite to synchronize properly with your mail software because my Nokia suite did not want to import internet format email addresses from my Exchange server. I am glad to see there is a way to do it...
You have probably found a way to make 6620 work with popular BT cards (including Motorola), too...

I am glad you can update your document on 6620 tiny screen I have to admit I would not attempt to do that even on Smartphone's bigger screen.

Then again, corporation I work for deployed MS Emial software and has only some 70,000 badged employees worldwide so I may be wrong...

Not to butt in this extensive conversation, since all of my phones have been (ironically) Nokia. I own a 6620 myself and didn't realize that it had so much problems to make someone actually give it up and use another brand. As far as i'm concerned, it works perfectly for my needs. I only had it for a couple of months but never had any problems with it. And my friends who have other phone brands such as Sony Ericsons, Samsung, Siemens, etc have consider getting the 6620 ever since i got it - not really sure why but probably for the gamming....

Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but i heard through the grapevine that Microsoft maybe abandoning their smartphone OS for......

Not to butt in this extensive conversation, since all of my phones have been (ironically) Nokia. I own a 6620 myself and didn't realize that it had so much problems to make someone actually give it up and use another brand. As far as i'm concerned, it works perfectly for my needs. I only had it for a couple of months but never had any problems with it. And my friends who have other phone brands such as Sony Ericsons, Samsung, Siemens, etc have consider getting the 6620 ever since i got it - not really sure why but probably for the gamming....

Do you really like 6620's shape? Do you like convenience of the keys on the outer edges of the phone? Do you like its battery life? Then... you are fine. I did not.

Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but i heard through the grapevine that Microsoft maybe abandoning their smartphone OS for......

I really hope not. On the other hand, I already have it... 😊

Let's close this thread. You like your phones and and found a better, in my opinion one...

Browsing through this thread again I noticed I forgot to reply to some of duchski's (oh so many) unfounded statements. Since I can't sleep anyway, I may just as well try to set some things straight.

duchski wrote:I do not know one global company that would say that the North American market is not important...

I didn't say it wasn't important, I said it wasn't that important. There's a difference. It's usual for companies to value one market segment over an other. And in the case of Nokia, the NA market isn't the most profitable. It's pretty obvious really.

Pretty much everything that is happening in the world of computing has been happening here, in the US. Not in Europe or Asia.

I can see why I neglected to reply to this one...
The USA has always been behind the rest of the world when it comes to the mobile telecommunications industry.

Well of course there is. Keep in mind that MS phones are around for what? 2 or 3 years? 20% of sales is not bad considering that Smartphones are not cheap and aimed at specific user... Not bad at all...

You need to take a closer look at the report I linked to. Those 20.2 per cent marketshare Microsoft has is _counting_ standalone PDAs. PocketPCs have been around for many years. If the report was to count only Symbian smartphones and MS smartphones, the result would be something like 90-95% in favour of Symbian.

So it IS bad. It's very very bad. For Microsoft.

That was always the case that Europe and Asia followed American lead in computing not the other way around...

I'm not even going to bother with this one.

Everyone who's used PC Suite to sync a Symbian phone with a PC knows that the sync software needs alot of improvement. But it still works, for most people, to sync the basics. It's fairly obvious that a Microsoft to Microsoft sync would go smoother.

So, duchski, the only argument you're left with that seems to hold any real water is the lack of stereo support in many of Nokia's S60 phones. Congrats.

Another thing that, I think, Nokia needs to look into is a home firmware flashing service, which many other companies are offering these days. It should be unnecessary to have to bring a smartphone to a service centre for a simple firmware upgrade.

duchski wrote:Let's close this thread.

Best idea yet 😊

Raven wrote:Browsing through this thread again I noticed I forgot to reply to some of duchski's (oh so many) unfounded statements. Since I can't sleep anyway, I may just as well try to set some things straight.

duchski wrote:I do not know one global company that would say that the North American market is not important...

Raven wrote: I didn't say it wasn't important, I said it wasn't that important. There's a difference. It's usual for companies to value one market segment over an other. And in the case of Nokia, the NA market isn't the most profitable. It's pretty obvious really.

I do not think it is so obviuos anymore. It used to be the case that the US market was getting the least advanced of Nokia's products... With the introudction of 6620 the US market got a BETTER version of the EMEA phone (6600), better as in faster CPU, support for EDGE and... stereo. I think they finally realized that you cannot be succesfull globally if you are not succesful in NA market and follow that fought by releasing a 6320 (WCDMA) in the US first...

duchski wrote:Pretty much everything that is happening in the world of computing has been happening here, in the US. Not in Europe or Asia

Raven wrote:I can see why I neglected to reply to this one...
The USA has always been behind the rest of the world when it comes to the mobile telecommunications industry.

You "wrote" mobile, but you could never charge the US of being behind in any aspect of telecommunications industry, from the invention of the telephone, automatic switching, telecom satellites the US was always leading...
Now, when it comes to mobile communications the US was not behind, it was well ahead and just becasue of that adopted GSM very late in the game, just becasue the wireless service was already there as opposed to many other contries where it was built from scratch. Also you have to remember that the US telecom market, first deregulated telecom market in the world (1984) did not provide a price incentive to develop wireless networks like it was the case in Europe....
Up to this day telecommonucations services are dirt cheap in the US as compared to the rest of the world... Competition is always good.

"

Raven wrote:You need to take a closer look at the report I linked to. Those 20.2 per cent marketshare Microsoft has is _counting_ standalone PDAs. PocketPCs have been around for many years. If the report was to count only Symbian smartphones and MS smartphones, the result would be something like 90-95% in favour of Symbian."

So you are saying this report is comparing PDA's sales to Symbian phone sales?? Whay? I would think it is talking about PDA's with phone capabilities like Windows CE Phone Edition devices... Otherwise that comparison does not make sense...

Raven wrote:So it IS bad. It's very very bad. For Microsoft.

Raven wrote:duchski wrote:

That was always the case that Europe and Asia followed American lead in computing not the other way around...

Oh, did I hurt your feelings? It is not chauvinism but please realise that CRAY, MS, INTEL, AMD, SUN, HP, Silicon Graphics, Real to name a few, are all American companies... Ever heard of Silicon Valley? What does is say on your PC; "Siemens Inside"?..... Get real. From Unix to Windows and OS X it is all American engineering....

Everyone who's used PC Suite to sync a Symbian phone with a PC knows that the sync software needs alot of improvement. But it still works, for most people, to sync the basics. It's fairly obvious that a Microsoft to Microsoft sync would go smoother.

You do not get it. For the business user

"sync the basics"

So, duchski, the only argument you're left with that seems to hold any real water is the lack of stereo support in many of Nokia's S60 phones. Congrats.

Not really, I am going to focus on 6620 (6600), the most advanced Symbian OS implementaion to date (OS 7.0) and here we are:

1) Poor syncing with major business mail suites (fatal defect)

2) Poor design and ergonomics - 66X0 is just to big, keys are too small, battery life really bad

3) Price - Nokia's phones are routinely overpriced when comparing (feature-to-feature) with other brands, including MS Smartphones

4) Very bad implementation of voice dialing (did anyone get it to work on 66x0???)

5) Lack of user friendly features such as Stereo support on 6600 (and 7610, 7650) - releasing a device capable of playing MP3 files out of the box and utilizing large storage (memory cards) without Stereo playback - lost opportunity and an absolute lack of vision

5) Very bad implementation of PC connectivity; slow serial port (serial to USB interface) in the age of USB and Firewire? - lack of vision , a definite problem for a business user

6) Very bad implementation of BlueTooth PC Connectivity: books were written on Nokia's failure. Or just poorly disguised attempt to favorize the company NOKIA sold their BT card business to... major fault as BT becomes finally a viable technology and widely implemented

Raven wrote:Another thing that, I think, Nokia needs to look into is a home firmware flashing service, which many other companies are offering these days. It should be unnecessary to have to bring a smartphone to a service centre for a simple firmware upgrade.

NOKIA phones in general are not so USER friendly after all when compared to let's say Siemens, the amount of customization on a Siemens phone you can do yourself with a hex editor is amazingand well documented. I really liked my Siemens S56 (s55 US). At some point it was THE BEST phone on the market from the user perspective.

Customization is also another point for MS Smartphone since the end user have access to registy file, the same format registry file we all know from windows...
And I am not taking about changing a background picture here......

However, you seem so intent on having a pissing contest. You keep bringing up unfounded (maybe in your small world your points are valid) scenarios about the 6600. Did you not comprehend my earlier message? Why must you blather on about issues you clearly didn't research very well. Thank goodness that you don't head up R and D at my company.

I pity your co-workers, friends (if you have any, which is doubtful with big head and all the crap you spew) and spouse(if you have one), you remind me of someone who goes on and on about topics and ideas you have in your head rather than facts.

Ever get wet ? You seem to piss into the wind quite often, is this a character trait?

I'm and American and you're starting to embarrass me.

Now SHUT UP with all your CRAP!

btw, how about a little proof-reading, your inferior education is showing!

duchski wrote:Now, when it comes to mobile communications the US was not behind, it was well ahead and just becasue of that adopted GSM very late in the game, just becasue the wireless service was already there as opposed to many other contries where it was built from scratch.

Get real. You guys were still fiddling around with two-way pagers when the rest of the world had been using SMS messaging for a couple of years. Only recently have the US gotten up to speed with the rest of world. But you still have problems with coverage don't you?

So you are saying this report is comparing PDA's sales to Symbian phone sales?? Whay? I would think it is talking about PDA's with phone capabilities like Windows CE Phone Edition devices... Otherwise that comparison does not make sense...

Are you too stubborn to actually read the report or what? The report covers the WORLDWIDE TOTAL MOBILE DEVICE MARKET. The numbers I referred to covers basically any mobile device running on an open OS.

MS Smartphones just entered the market. But they are making a great progress.

They didn't "just enter the market". The first Microsoft smartphone (Orange SPV) was released the same year as the first Symbian smartphone (Nokia 7650).

I am going to focus on 6620 (6600), the most advanced Symbian OS implementaion to date (OS 7.0)

Again, the 6600/6620 is NOT the most advanced Symbinan OS implementation to date. Far from it.

I'm not going to comment on all of your usability issues regarding the 6600/6620, because I don't own one. I'll leave that to the actual users, which btw. don't seem to agree with you anyway.

2) Poor design and ergonomics - 66X0 is just to big, keys are too small, battery life really bad

Design is very much a subjective thing. Battery life on Symbian phones have always been top notch compared to MS phones.

3) Price - Nokia's phones are routinely overpriced when comparing (feature-to-feature) with other brands, including MS Smartphones

? Price examples?

6) Very bad implementation of BlueTooth PC Connectivity:

? Bluetooth is bluetooth... It's in my opinion an overhyped, unstable technology - in its current state. The BT standard works basically the same in any device, from my experience. Some have a little better implementation, but not much, and its still too unreliable IMO.

NOKIA phones in general are not so USER friendly after all when compared to let's say Siemens, the amount of customization on a Siemens phone you can do yourself with a hex editor is amazingand well documented.

Hex editor??? What "business user" (as you call yourself) on earth is going to use a hex editor to customise their phone?!

There is a reason why Series 60 has become such a popular UI you know. Microsoft fanboys always preach about how the MS smartphone UI is so attractive because it resembles the counterpart desktop UI, thus it should be easy to use. Which might be true in theory, but in real practical use most people seem to prefer the S60 UI.

Customization is also another point for MS Smartphone since the end user have access to registy file, the same format registry file we all know from windows...
And I am not taking about changing a background picture here......

Again, what "business user" would give a rats arse?!

Wow,Hex and Registry editors,with such skilled business users System Administrators would go out of business.

Raven wrote:Get real. You guys were still fiddling around with two-way pagers when the rest of the world had been using SMS messaging for a couple of years. Only recently have the US gotten up to speed with the rest of world.

Give me a break. This a good old snotty European talk about dumb-ass Americans while in fact almost every major telecommunications technology came from the US, to be exact from AT&T and its Bell Labs research center. You want to get some background then read this: http://www.privateline.com/PCS/history.htm
Just to keep things in accurate perspective, Bell System in the US was a first succesfull commerical implementation of telephony and that trend follows until today. Even UNIX was invented "by the way" while Bell Labs were working on OS for electronic switches... More on the wireless telephony in the US at the link above. Let's not start a pissing contest here.

Raven wrote:But you still have problems with coverage don't you?

So do you. There is always an obscure stretch of a highway with less than optimal signal...

Raven wrote:Are you too stubborn to actually read the report or what? The report covers the WORLDWIDE TOTAL MOBILE DEVICE MARKET. The numbers I referred to covers basically any mobile device running on an open OS.

I am going to read it then. Once again, any comparison between a device running Windows CE and Symbian phone like 6620 is misleading, based on cost of the devices, computing power and available features... There is no way you could compare $400-$600 Pocket PC devices to 6620, right?

Raven wrote:They didn't "just enter the market". The first Microsoft smartphone (Orange SPV) was released the same year as the first Symbian smartphone (Nokia 7650).

But Nokia has been making phones long before that, right? No wonder they lead in sales having such a big base... Also Smartphone is aimed at sub-PDA market where 6620 or 7610 is still pretty much a consumer phone, right?

Raven wrote:Again, the 6600/6620 is NOT the most advanced Symbian OS implementation to date. Far from it.

Raven wrote:I'm not going to comment on all of your usability issues regarding the 6600/6620, because I don't own one. I'll leave that to the actual users, which btw. don't seem to agree with you anyway.

SPV C500 dim: 46x108x16.3mm at just 100g screen size 176 x 220
http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobilephones/0,39023925,39167162,00.htm

Nokia 6600/6620 dim: 58.2x108.6x23.7mm at 122g screen size: 176 x 208 lines
http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobilephones/0,39023924,39119281,00.htm

Smartphone is lighter and smaller and has a larger screen...... Do you understand my claim about design now??? Smartphone feels much smaller and lighter than Nokia 66x0...

Design is very much a subjective thing. Battery life on Symbian phones have always been top notch compared to MS phones.

Well I own (still) 6620 and Audiovox SMT-5600 (Orange SVT C500)
You have to take my word for it but battery life of Smartphone is much better than that of 6620...

Raven wrote:? Price examples?

OK, the latest MS smartphone (SMT5600/SPV C500) was $100, my Nokia costed close to $300. Below is a link to AT&T prices on cell phones, they haven't changed since September:
http://www.attwireless.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phones/camera-phones.jhtml?ptype=lrn
From what I have seen prices in Europe refelect the same trend, i.e. Nokia 6600 is still an overpriced and oversized dud..

Raven wrote:? Bluetooth is bluetooth... It's in my opinion an overhyped, unstable technology - in its current state. The BT standard works basically the same in any device, from my experience. Some have a little better implementation, but not much, and its still too unreliable IMO.

BT is here for good. There are printers that support BT, there are cars that come with BT -> phone connectivity (Acura). I haven't used other then BT headset for for more than a year now. BT is a MUST

Raven wrote:Hex editor??? What "business user" (as you call yourself) on earth is going to use a hex editor to customise their phone?!

Raven wrote:There is a reason why Series 60 has become such a popular UI you know. Microsoft fanboys always preach about how the MS smartphone UI is so attractive because it resembles the counterpart desktop UI, thus it should be easy to use. Which might be true in theory, but in real practical use most people seem to prefer the S60 UI.

Do you have any data to support that? 😊) I do not know, one reason I like MS UI because it has "TODAY" page that Nokia's phone are missing... Start/Idle page is useless on Symbian Nokias, it is a shame. Remember, we are talking about NOkia 8820 here...

Raven wrote:Again, what "business user" would give a rats arse?!

Business users responsible for deploying thounds of headsets to employees.
Being able to configure them to work with the existing infrastrcuture via unified script like it is done on a desktop is a necessity for any large organization...
You have to understand, in case of big business, the business user is the IT department that buys and deploys the equipment, provides technical support and training for the end user. Obviously form the IT dept perspective you need a device that is easy to customize. Also easy to write apps for which translates into number of developers trained on Symbian as opposed to .NET framework (Smartphone).

Raven wrote:Hex editor??? What "business user" (as you call yourself) on earth is going to use a hex editor to customise their phone?!

Are you denying IT departments wordwide status of a business users? 😊)

Raven, with all due respect for NOKIA: Orange C500 has more features, larger screen and cost less... Which could be a better phone?
Think for a sec.

[QUOTE]

evobit wrote:Nobody seems to listen to my arguments around here, but I'll add my 2c anyways..

Until a Symbian device is shipped with seamless support for integration into a windows server business environment, Symbian is destined to become the Commodore of the 90s.

Yes Nokia/Symbian hold a huge marketshare, but they have not been in the same market as Microsoft until now, and we are seeing a steady increase in the market share of MS devices.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Symbian phones, but I also passionately loved my Amiga.

And I my c128... but it is gone, it did not stand a chance with a PC or a MAC..

evobit wrote:Symbian/Nokia desperately need to capture the higher end business user market which is currently just developing right now. And right now, businesses are NOT purchasing symbian phones - they're purchasing MS phones because they're cheap, they're far easier to integrate, and the UI is familiar to users. The business market will be where this war is won/lost. Nokia know the cellular phone market, but they are relative newcomers to the mobile computer game, and Microsoft have years of knowledge and establishment.

Ditto.

evobit wrote:Nokia has also made a huge mistake in limiting the compatibility of Ngage games to just the ngage platform. Sure if they were to open it up so all symbian devices could play the games, other manufacturers would be able to ride the wave, but that's what licensing is for! At least if they had a wide userbase of games users, they would be guaranteed a stranglehold of the youth market for a good while yet.

When you look at Nokia marketing strategy you start thinking there is none.
Even naming scheme doesn't make any sense with 6 series phones being both advanced Symbian and "regular" cell phones. The bigest mistake Nokia recently did, besides the one you pointed out above, is cutting STEREO support on 7610.
(IMHO 7610 is a very fucntional design, possibly best looking Nokia phone ever...)
This could help to position the company as a maker of a new breed of convergent devices for still picture/video/audio.. Basic camera (most people use basic point-and-shoot digital cameras anyway), video player and MP3 player... Instead Nokia is waiting for an iPod that will have integrated telephony features....

Very sad...

GhostDog wrote:Wow,Hex and Registry editors,with such skilled business users System Administrators would go out of business.

System admins are users, too

EinZtein wrote:However, you seem so intent on having a pissing contest. You
Ever get wet ? You seem to piss into the wind quite often, is this a character trait?

I'm and American and you're starting to embarrass me.

Now SHUT UP with all your CRAP!

btw, how about a little proof-reading, your inferior education is showing!

You are just a guest here and yet you choose to offend people?
Get help.