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[COMMENT] Mobile apps, value for money?

3 replies · 3,302 views · Started 20 December 2004

Just a quick question which mostly relates to games, do you feel you are getting good value for your money when you fork out for an app for your symbian OS device? I ask because some years ago equivalent apps to what are being released now would have been thrown out freely to users of the Psion devices and similarly source code could be available for people to tweak apps to their own designs.

Part of what puts me up to this is a recent thread in the 9500 forums on how poor Smartmovie plays back videos. In a vaguely contentious debate some put down the lack of quality to it being a poor device and OS and others the fact that not enough effort had been put into the software. This argument took me back a few years and reminded me of a similar situation not too long after the 9210 was released.

On the 16th of August 2001, Pigmy Projects (a demo group active on the Amiga scene) released the first and only demo on the 9210 communicator. Entitled G-force 2001 and available here for those who still have a 9210 knocking around to use it on, it pushed back the boundaries of what we thought possible at the time on such a device, as well as traditional effects such as bump mapping they showed off fullscreen 3d animation with Goraud shading. What can the 9210 do? It can rock and rock hard. Proof that a device such as the 9210 had people waiting in anticipation of what could be done next, and more importantly what games would employ such good graphics. And what happened, nothing came. No more demos were released and no games group released anything near the quality achieved by a demo group chucking some code out for free.

Now time runs on, the 9500 is here a device with 3 times the processor power and a mile more memory, will we see any demos arrive, anything to show of what can be achieved on this modern device. Probably not, which is a shame, in the days of the Amiga and Atari 16bit computers the demo coders would shame games programmers by what they could achieve which did result in cases with more work and effort being put into applications to show that they wouldn't be shown up by demo coders (and if they couldn't beat them, then hire them).

Smartphones and PDAs are tight devices, there's no room for the leniency that is seen so much with windoze applications where there are miles more resources than required so why spend time optimizing to make it work on a slightly older machine. On these portable devices the code needs optimizing to make every cycle count, get the last bit of speed from the device. The 9210 spec was far superior to the 16 bit Atari and Amiga computers of the early 90s, yet the applications didn't show that off, they never really competed with the quality of 15 year old 16bit machine. Heres hoping the coders get off their buts and try to catch up, the faster and modern devices shouldn't just be pushing out cheap 2d platformers, the N-gage shouldn't be the only 3d games device, the others are capable with effort.

As I alluded to earlier smartmovie for the 9500 seems to perform very badly, which doesn't seem right for the spec compared to the same app on other devices, and the improvements like this needs will only come when companies are shown up and need to put the extra effort in to make a simple app into a great app. Here's hoping the improvements come off of the programmer's own backs rather than waiting for another group to say, "we can make a better performing media player than that." The same goes to any companies who may think they can just put out the bear minimum of an application then take peoples money for it because there's no competition to force them to improve.

Are we getting value for money apps? Those that don't have a 9210 can watch G-Force 2001 by Pigmy Productions by clicking this link and downloading the .mpg for a taster of what could be done 3 years ago, on an underpowered device. Then think about what could be done now.

SwitchBlade wrote:Just a quick question which mostly relates to games, do you feel you are getting good value for your money when you fork out for an app for your symbian OS device? I ask because some years ago equivalent apps to what are being released now would have been thrown out freely to users of the Psion devices and similarly source code could be available for people to tweak apps to their own designs.

Part of what puts me up to this is a recent thread in the 9500 forums on how poor Smartmovie plays back videos. In a vaguely contentious debate some put down the lack of quality to it being a poor device and OS and others the fact that not enough effort had been put into the software. This argument took me back a few years and reminded me of a similar situation not too long after the 9210 was released.

On the 16th of August 2001, Pigmy Projects (a demo group active on the Amiga scene) released the first and only demo on the 9210 communicator. Entitled G-force 2001 and available here for those who still have a 9210 knocking around to use it on, it pushed back the boundaries of what we thought possible at the time on such a device, as well as traditional effects such as bump mapping they showed off fullscreen 3d animation with Goraud shading. What can the 9210 do? It can rock and rock hard. Proof that a device such as the 9210 had people waiting in anticipation of what could be done next, and more importantly what games would employ such good graphics. And what happened, nothing came. No more demos were released and no games group released anything near the quality achieved by a demo group chucking some code out for free.

Now time runs on, the 9500 is here a device with 3 times the processor power and a mile more memory, will we see any demos arrive, anything to show of what can be achieved on this modern device. Probably not, which is a shame, in the days of the Amiga and Atari 16bit computers the demo coders would shame games programmers by what they could achieve which did result in cases with more work and effort being put into applications to show that they wouldn't be shown up by demo coders (and if they couldn't beat them, then hire them).

Smartphones and PDAs are tight devices, there's no room for the leniency that is seen so much with windoze applications where there are miles more resources than required so why spend time optimizing to make it work on a slightly older machine. On these portable devices the code needs optimizing to make every cycle count, get the last bit of speed from the device. The 9210 spec was far superior to the 16 bit Atari and Amiga computers of the early 90s, yet the applications didn't show that off, they never really competed with the quality of 15 year old 16bit machine. Heres hoping the coders get off their buts and try to catch up, the faster and modern devices shouldn't just be pushing out cheap 2d platformers, the N-gage shouldn't be the only 3d games device, the others are capable with effort.

As I alluded to earlier smartmovie for the 9500 seems to perform very badly, which doesn't seem right for the spec compared to the same app on other devices, and the improvements like this needs will only come when companies are shown up and need to put the extra effort in to make a simple app into a great app. Here's hoping the improvements come off of the programmer's own backs rather than waiting for another group to say, "we can make a better performing media player than that." The same goes to any companies who may think they can just put out the bear minimum of an application then take peoples money for it because there's no competition to force them to improve.

Are we getting value for money apps? Those that don't have a 9210 can watch G-Force 2001 by Pigmy Productions by clicking this link and downloading the .mpg for a taster of what could be done 3 years ago, on an underpowered device. Then think about what could be done now.

Well I believe that smartphones are very related with the computers. Back at the Windows95 era I remember most of the users complaining for it being slow as hell. Most of the users then was using 95 only for its easy GUI. Especially things like word and excel were easier to do (of course those things could be done in win 3.11 but 95 were nicer). If someone was going to run a game then he surely was going to boot in DOS. Hardware grew stronger and Windows from the stupidly slow OS became the stupidly unstable OS. Then win98 came which of course were more stable but again more slow. And then the question comes. what was the difference between these two OS in the Multimedia department? NO DIFFERENCE. I am quite sure that if the standards (like OpenGL or EAX) were also available for DOS and developers were also working on DOS versions then the Games would be much faster. Just make some comparisons between the windows versions and the linux versions of some Games like Quake3 or unreal tournament and you'll understand the difference. At first sight you'll say that the OS is the main reason but it's not only that. Things are much more complicated.

Now how all these fit with mobile phones. Either we want it or not most of the beginers in developing will start making apps for PC and then after learning the basics they will jump in the platform they want (which is symbian in our case). The problem is that they allready have learned to develop in a different way. The Microsoft way(that has been forced by both M$ and Intel). Having in mind the $ Philosophy. And I am sure that most of them have jumped in symbian in the thought of making $ because there are not many developers. They just want to release a product and maybe later fix any bugs. They don't mind how optimised their code will be. And I doubt they know anything about optimising in assembly.

I must also say that the case of Lonelycatgames is maybe the best.

What would someone expect from a company that develops the same app on multiple platforms (Palm,Symbian,Windows CE). That they will start optimizing the code seperately for each platform? It sounds like a joke to them. But are they the only one to blame? I must say that Nokia (or any company in the process of making development tools) is also guilty. Surely they are not Microsoft trying to push the Wintel project (Newer OS meaning higher hardware requirements) and so in the mobile phone case every new OS is faster than a previus version even on the same hardware (e.g. Symbian 6.1 vs 7.0). But what about the development tools, the SDKs, how good are the compilers that come with them? I am sure that if Nokia put some effort then with new compilers applications can become up to 50% faster.

The thing we have here is that the PDA/Smartphone market is more like the Atari/Amiga platform of yesteryear than the PC market. In the PC market optimisation became worthless because the hardware combinations would move to thwart you, but on the mobile devices and the old home computers the platform was static, ok some models would have a different amount of RAM, but each machine of a type would be the same, no change. Which is where we are now, Symbian apps run on the same processors albeit at different speeds and different amounts of memory, so optimisation isn't the laughable idea it is on the PC. Also with similar devices on the same underpinning technology optimization as used in the days of old should seem logical.

I've just found time to download the demo you linked to, onto my 9210 (which, may I add, I still use) and it's chuffin' awesome! I've never seen that running on the little fella. And yes, I share your thoughts on why others can't develop applications to such a polished standard.

Could it be that to achieve that level of smoothness and fluidity, the demo writers access the hardware directly, something that many developers may not want to do, preffering APIs that keep their software compatible across devices and firmware revisions? Just a thought.

Also, could the fact that there's no AI or user interaction, give the demo writers more processor ticks for doing other cool stuff?

I do think that the first in a field, when it comes to software developing, can offer a below par product if there's no competition. Take QuickOffice for instance; don't get me wrong, I think it's great on my 6260, but if there was competition for Office editing suits, then maybe by now, we'd have had all sorts of new features including Print-Via-PC (something I still miss from my old Psion days - why hasn't anybody come up with a solution for that?)

There isn't (as yet), a video player for Series60 that comes close to a free some free video players for Windows Mobile Smartphone. It's sad, but it's true.