Read-only archive of the All About Symbian forum (2001–2013) · About this archive

Can someone read/check/comment this for me please

15 replies · 71 views · Started 21 September 2005

This all came to me in the wee hours on a night shift, so it may read like bollox, but I think it's a topic that's not been covered before.

Should the Symbian design references be redesigned.

When announced 5 years ago, the Symbian OS (EPOC release 6) was given 3 reference designs. Crystal was designed to be the replacement to the Psion Series 5, with a 640x200pixel landscape screen. Quartz was the answer to a stylus based Palm-esque PDA with a 208x300 pixel portrait screen, finally Pearl was the baby designed to add more functionality to existing phone designs with a 176x208 pixel screen.

Unlike offerings from Microsoft and Palm, both of whom's devices came with a single standard screen size meaning that whatever device a person owned the software would run the same, Symbian software could only run on one platform without some recoding and a recompile. *As we've also discovered as time has marched on, subsequent revisions of the Symbian OS have resulted in "broken" software from the previous revisions. Though the saving graces here are Java and OPL both of which are fairly revision agnostic, although not platform agnostic.

Unfortunately despite users of the Psion series of devices hoping to see a device coming to replace their existing devices, Symbian managed to drop the ball. The first was that the first Symbian device to market was the Nokia 9210 communicator, which to a Series 5 owner seemed like a step backwards with the Series 3 styled keyboard and smaller screen size coupled with the lack of a stylus and the absence of the popular OPL. Despite these the device was very capable making it a great PDA in it's own right.

The second device to market was the Nokia 7650 based on the Pearl reference showed another ball dropped, software released for this device wouldn't run on the 9210 and vice versa. Similarly when SonyEricsson released the P800 based on the Quartz reference.

At the time it seemed a bit daft and looking back ludicrous that software for the "lesser" devices was incompatible with the "better" ones, and the comparative lack of market penetration of Crystal and Quartz devices (now known as the familiar Series 80 and UIQ respectively) meant devices on these platforms lacked the volume of software available to Pearl (now Series 60) based devices. It's fairly obvious that both UIQ and Series80 devices are capable of running the glut of software released for Series60 simply by having the software mentioning to the OS which platform it was designed for and the OS adapting the screen draw accordingly. It may not be possible for a Series80 or UIQ piece of software to run on other platforms but they both could run Series 60.

This begs the question, Did no-one at Symbian guess that the Pearl platform would end up 3 times as popular as Quartz and Crystal combined? Or did they perhaps expect it but also expect the software coders to rewrite their software for each platform. Either way the Symbian platform as a whole suffers from an apparant lack of software due to the varied platforms if not an actual one. Could the solution be in the next version of Symbian to incorporate a Series60 compatability layer into Series 80 and UIQ, it'd be a very effective way of increasing the size of the software catalogues for both UIQ and s80.

Hmms probably my first negative Symbian comment. BTW this is with a view to throwing it in the editorial.

I don't see it as a negative Symbian comment. Imho this is a good piece describing exactly what the problem is with Symbian development.

I hope someone at Symbian is smart enough to build a compatibility layer for UIQ,S80 and Series 60 in the new Series 90.

Nice set of questions in there...

Maybe it would be worth adding something about the politics involved between the major licensees. i.e. how SE would never buy a Series 60 license, and how Nokia will never buy a UIQ license.

Motorola's inability to release the Sendo X2, because it is Series 60 and they are a UIQ house, is a perfect example of how the major players in an "unified" OS have managed to keep it fragmented.

I like it too. I agree that this is one of Symbian weakness'. Its essentially an artefact of Symbain losing control of the UI layer when it decided it didn't want to be a UI business. The subsequent politics thats goes on internally within the Symbian family is little noticed or understood, but it is a very sensitive issue. (Series 60 vs the Symbian owned UIQ), Nokia owning the Code Warrior Dev Tools for all UI's etc etc.

The incompatibity issue is down to the UI layer not the OS, as Symbian can't actually be blamed for this in one sense, but you rather think, as Switchblade says, that someone might have thought about it a bit more. At the very least I think more could have be done by Nokia to help people go from Series 60 to Series 80 and vice versa.

This is also precisely the reason Symbian chooses not to be public or branded (powered by Symbian OS) because it chooses to be the underlying invisible OS. In one sense this makes sense because of the compatability issues mentioned above, but in another it weakens the Symbian OS in the public perception. I think marketing Symbian OS might be a good thing to do (although honestly starting with UIQ and Series 60 would be a good start).

One thing to note is the incompatibility between UI version is something that plagues all the OS's (perhaps with the exception of Palm OS). Relatively speaking we haven't seen anything yet (the jump to Symbian 9), and much of the incompatibility so far is as much down to bad programming or developers not recomping using the new SDK. (Not excusing this of course, just making the point it's not as bad as some portry it). Interesting porting between UIQ and Series 60 is meant to be easier in Symbian 9 if you write with that in mind from the beginning.
Switchblade - if you want to incorprate any of this rambling feel free!

That aside I think it is essentialy to have negative / critcial comment on AAS. People already assume that we're blindly pro-Symbian, and I hope that none of us are.

Rafe's comments make a lot of sense and need to be included in a final version of this 'editorial'.

Specifically, Symbian's choice to be the enabling, background OS and not the perceived software interface.

Any developer who fancies porting his apps between Symbian interfaces normally does it without too much fuss. There's not a problem here. It's just that for many apps, especially the mass of S60 games, the sheer amount of work in redoing all the graphics for UIQ or (heaven forbid) S80 means that few developers actually commit the time needed.

So, in summary, it's no one person or company's fault. Would a S60 'compatibility' system work for UIQ or S80? I suspect performance might be hit - after all, the processors on UIQ and S80 devices aren't any faster, and in some cases are slower. As per my PDA Essentials roundup (news posted today), devices like the Nokia 6630 and 6680 are actually MORE capable in many areas than UIQ and S80 devices. So I don't think the 'lesser' viewpoint is that valid anymore. A 7650 is light years from the 6680.

Having said all this, if Symbian or Nokia or SE choose to invest in developing some kind of S60 compatibility hooks, I'd be the first to welcome the initiative!

Steve Litchfield

Steve,

Yeah exactly what I was trying to say (as usual Steve says it much more sucinctly). For developers tools like Peroon's porting tools are a good example of how it can be done. I spoken to developer from other platforms and they say their biggest headache is different sets of graphics for different resolutions.

Rafe

p.s. the collective editorial discussion is rather nice.

I thought it'd be best in here to chat about it in case I'd got some glaring error in there.

AFAIK Symbian came up with the reference designs and then UIQ and Nokia took them on and shaped them afterwards, or did Symbian not actually have any say in the UI references and they were completely outsourced from day 1.

The way I saw it was that orginally for a Series 80 device to run Series 60 software, the softkeys are replaced by the CBA and suddenly the rest of the screen will fit neatly in the centre of the 9500 screen. As I said though it's realising who was to blame for missing such a simple concept on day one.

I'll take notes and edit the original and repost it here in a bit.

SwitchBlade wrote:AFAIK Symbian came up with the reference designs and then UIQ and Nokia took them on and shaped them afterwards, or did Symbian not actually have any say in the UI references and they were completely outsourced from day 1.

The way I saw it was that orginally for a Series 80 device to run Series 60 software, the softkeys are replaced by the CBA and suddenly the rest of the screen will fit neatly in the centre of the 9500 screen. As I said though it's realising who was to blame for missing such a simple concept on day one.

The thing is, Symbian and Nokia and SE and UIQ are not as separate as you might think. Symbian continue to work very closely hand in hand with each of them (Symbian employees are often stationed inside Nokia or SE, and possibly vice-versa) and it's not always clear cut as to whether a particular interface idea or background feature was a Symbian or a manufacturer initiative.

Symbian were probably hoping that Crystal and Quartz would be the ones to take off, since they were deemed the 'purest', but Nokia's drive and sales figures for Series 60 rather caught everyone off guard. Who'd have thought, 8 years ago, with Psion sales in the hundreds of thousands each year, that Psion descendants would be selling around 20 MILLION each year?

Series 60 has its own Front End Processor, among many other small but important differences, and these would have to be modelled on the other platforms. Not trivial, but I suppose possible. It's an awful lot easier for developers to simply recompile/tweak their apps though.

Interesting thread!

Steve Litchfield

Theoretcially Symbian came up with the reference designs in house, but as Steve says there's a lot more interaction that might appear going on.

You only need to look at Crystal to realise it was basically a Symbian version of GEOS Communicators mixed in with some heavy EPOC 5 influences. One suspects that Nokia did a lot of the work for this reference design.

UIQ was the same, but with Ericsson, the first concept Quartz device was from Ericsson (called Pamela IIRC). The ideas were put together by the Ronedby lab of Ericsson (I think). This lab was later sold /passed to Symbian and became UIQ. The fact that Symbian own UIQ is basically down to the fact that Ericsson passed over the lab. I wonder whether Sony Ericsson regret that in the face on Nokia the software platform.

I'm not sure of the backstory of Pearl, but I think that may have been a Nokia one too (judging by the subsequent Series 60). Or it could have been an internal Symbian project. As Steve says Quartz in particular was talked up a lot by Symbian in the early days - the though presumably being that PDA like phone were more likely to catch on.

The forgotten first Symbian phone - the Ericsson R380 had a completely different UI (in some ways it owed far more to ER5 than any of the other subsequent phone, but could not be extended with 3rd party stuff)

More thought food

Should the Symbian design references be redesigned.

When announced 5 years ago, the Symbian OS (EPOC release 6) was given 3 reference designs. Crystal was designed to be the replacement to the Psion Series 5, with a 640x200pixel landscape screen. Quartz was the answer to a stylus based Palm-esque PDA with a 208x300 pixel portrait screen, finally Pearl was the baby designed to add more functionality to existing phone designs with a 176x208 pixel screen.

Unlike offerings from Microsoft and Palm, both of whom's devices came with a single standard screen size meaning that whatever device a person owned the software would run the same, Symbian software could only run on one platform without some recoding and a recompile. As we've also discovered as time has marched on, subsequent revisions of the Symbian OS have resulted in "broken" software from the previous revisions. Though the saving graces here are Java and OPL both of which are fairly revision agnostic, although not platform agnostic.

Unfortunately despite users of the Psion series of devices hoping to see a device coming to replace their existing devices, Symbian managed to drop the ball. The first was that the first Symbian device to market was the Nokia 9210 communicator, which to a Series 5 owner seemed like a step backwards with the Series 3 styled keyboard and smaller screen size coupled with the lack of a stylus and the absence of the popular OPL. Despite these the device was very capable making it a great PDA in it's own right.

Sometime after the release of the 9210 the original reference designs were taken on by other companies as Symbian decided it wanted to concentrate on the underlying OS rather than the UIs on top. Nokia took on the Pearl and Crystal designs, naming it's versions Series 60 and Series 80 to fit in with it's existing UI naming strategys. The Quartz reference design was left on the shelf and so to keep it alive Symbian created the UIQ company and renamed the design UIQ.

The second device to market was the Nokia 7650 based on the Nokia's Series 60 showed another ball dropped, software released for this device wouldn't run on the 9210 and vice versa. Similarly when SonyEricsson released the P800 based on the UIQ.

At the time it seemed a bit daft and looking back ludicrous that software for the "lesser" devices was incompatible with the "better" ones, and the comparative lack of market penetration of Series 80 and UIQ devices meant that devices on these platforms lacked the volume of software available to Series 60 based devices. It's fairly obvious that both UIQ and Series80 devices are capable of running the glut of software released for Series60 simply by having the software mentioning to the OS which platform it was designed for and the OS adapting the screen draw accordingly. It may not be possible for a Series80 or UIQ piece of software to run on other platforms but they both could run Series 60.

This begs the question, Did no-one at Symbian guess that the Pearl platform would end up 3 times as popular as Quartz and Crystal combined? Or did they perhaps expect it but also expect the software coders to rewrite their software for each platform. Evidence suggests that Symbian were taking the modern modular OS thought forward and the suggestion was that applications would consist of 3 layers, the main engine of the software with no idea of UI or graphics, the graphical engine which would draw the relevant data displays though have no knowledge of the UI on which it ran, and the UI interface which would arrange the parts from the second layer to be suitable on the final device UI. This abstraction allows developers to keep the vast majority of their software the same while only changing one part to allow for easy portability.

Once the various UIs were taken on elsewhere Symbian had no control over them and the companies now owning them work on their own independant ideas. So as of the splitting of the UI between the various groups the onus comes onto these other companies to promote cross-compatability between the various Symbian platforms. Nokia as owners of both the Series 60 and 80 designs are in the unique position to create a compatability section to the Series 80 UI to detect a Series 60 application and adjust the way the screen displays accordingly (i.e. center the main screen in the large screen, softkeys to the right hand CBA area, and application title and icon on the left), in fact it's such a blindingly obvious idea to increase the amount of software titles available for Series 80 devices and thereby increase their perceived usefulness that it's a surprise they've not tried it already.

Also now Symbian have no control over UIs it's possible for every Symbian licensee to take the OS and create a brand new UI for each device further fragmenting what could have been a more unified platform. On the flipside though this more what device manufacturers would prefer as they can tailor the UI and graphical design of the OS around the design of the
device they are making rather than ending up in a "Windows CE" situation where everyones devices are pretty much identical in physical design giving more the impression that they are actually all the same. This creates the situation where units are branded on the UI they use rather than the Symbian OS, as declaring units as running Symbian OS would be a bit of a misnomer as although my 9500 is a Symbian OS device, so is my 3650 and there's no hope in hell of them really running the same software etc.

Symbian at the start put the ball in the court of the developer to create the software with easy porting in mind and to subsequently port between devices themselves. Unfortuantely as can be seen from the way things have turned out, some developers have kicked the ball around a bit and others have tripped over it, leaving us with a glut of software for one UI and a lack for others. As said before Nokia are in the best position to pick up the ball and modify Series 80 to be more compatible with Series 60 applications, this is more unlikely to occur with UIQ as it would probably end up with UIQ licensing aspects of the Series 60 UI from Nokia to create the compatability. Yet with the latest Series 60 offerings allowing for different screen sizes and the code required there to get various applications to render properly on the larger screens Nokia must have an idea of what could be done.

Essentially this would lead to applications running in a small window in the style of SuperGoBoy on the 9500 but would open up the devices to a world of applications and games from developers who either don't have the time of inclination to go through the effort of redesigning their graphics for the other sized devices. Lets face it the prime problem with porting is the presentation of the screen, something designed for Series 60 would leave a load of free space on the other platforms (though there's no reason why it can't use a smaller screen and have a background border image in the rest of the space, SFCave anyone?), similarly fitting something filling a Series 80 screen onto a smaller device needs some serious thought from the developer to make it happen. So perhaps the idea that developers would rewrite their UI interfaces for all the various platforms is a little too hopeful with hindsight, and the UI designers and Symbian should look at ways to help with the porting of applications with minimal or no effort, at least with a view of getting software from the devices with smaller screens to those with larger.

Rafe wrote:
The forgotten first Symbian phone - the Ericsson R380 had a completely different UI (in some ways it owed far more to ER5 than any of the other subsequent phone, but could not be extended with 3rd party stuff)

I'd forgotten about that one, it was the one where the keypad folded down to reveal a touch screen that looked a halfway house between SIBO and EPOC wasn't it?

SwitchBlade wrote:More thought food

Your points are all still interesting, but (like the EPOC netBook Pro petition) I just can't see this ever happening. You've referred to applications on S60 which would be great on S80 and UIQ. Off hand, I can't think of any which are needed on other platforms, other than games (which have the aforementioned graphics work factor). I really can't see Nokia or Symbian or SE investing in any compatibility scheme just so that a large number of S60 games can be run in a small window on larger screened devices, with users complaining that 'the games look wrong and don't fill the screen' to the support desks....

Most seriously useful S60 software already has its equivalent built-in or easily add-able under UIQ or S80. Or maybe you can think of some exceptions to this?

Sorry to be negative about all this....

Steve Litchfield

I wasn't writing it to expect something to happen, and my knowledge of the S60 & UIQ software catalogues is that I can't think of any apps that need porting (apart from the UIQ Atari ST emulator to my 9500). It was really written just to be a discussion piece.

SwitchBlade wrote:I wasn't writing it to expect something to happen, and my knowledge of the S60 & UIQ software catalogues is that I can't think of any apps that need porting (apart from the UIQ Atari ST emulator to my 9500). It was really written just to be a discussion piece.

We've certainly had a discussion 8-) If you want to extend it, the best place would perhaps be a post in 'Editorial thoughts', letting general users post their comments, etc.

Steve Litchfield

That's the plan, I just thought it best to run it through you far more knowledgable people first to make sure I've not made any glaring errors.