Smartphones Show 33, now live and on YouTube, has a hands-on review of the WinMob-powered HTC S710, plus a video feature looking at ten things current smartphones can do that the otherwise cool Apple iPhone can't. The ten are demo-ed on current S60 3rd Edition hardware, but many also apply to other Symbian OS-powered devices.
Read on in the full article.
I'm an Apple fanboy, I guess. I love my Mac and I'll never go back to Windows on my home desktop. Why? I love OS X and the innovations it offers.
I also love my iPod. I think it's fantastic.
But I won't be loving an iPhone. I agree with much of what Steve said; Apart from a few UI features, there's nothing in the iPhone that I can't get on my Symbian Smartphones.
I've long said that the only company that could move me from Symbian/Nokia would be Apple, but the iPhone isn't enough and I think that Steve Jobs (much as I hang on many of his words) is just plain wrong in what he says about the usability of current Smartphones. In my opinion, he completely misrepresented the Smartphone market when he got is graph going with usability and smartness.
I wish every success to Apple, but I think that the iPhone is entering a market that is vastly different to that of the digital music players of yesteryear and I think it will be utterly impossible for the iPhone to transform the market in the way it transformed the music market. It will, without doubt, have an influence, but it won't be a market leader and it will be playing catchup for some time.
This is just my opinion, of course, and I could be wrong (first time for everything), but I don't see the iPhone achieving as much as is being predicted by iPhone fans.
I do think, though, that Steve has maybe ranted enough about the iPhone and there's a risk that any more on this topic would make him look like Jacek Rutkowski and his attitude toward Nokia... And you don't want that :tongue:
>>I do think, though, that Steve has maybe ranted enough about the iPhone
Point taken. I promise not to talk about it again until it's actually launched in the UK - in the Autumn?
8-)
But am I allowed to keep ranting on about how cool the Nokia E90 and E61i are?
Steve
Oh, but yes!
(isn't that compulsory?)
😉
Steve: good to see that you'll stop whining about the iPhone until it's actually released. It started to look a bit too desperate.
Actually it'd be great if you could start ranting *a lot more* about about those small things in S60 that, for some, could be easily fixed but are really annoying. Some S60 people read AAS regularly so that could be a lot more effective than keeping saying that Symbian phones can do so much more than iPhone (we all know that already). Like the really slow folder opening in Menu when you've got many apps installed (I see that you have eventually acknowledged this issue in your recent E70 vs HTC something comparison), the terrible Messaging email UI (what's this "Connect" menu item that really should be "Check emails"? why don't email disappear right away when I delete them? why can't I scoll line-by-line in an email? Why are email displayed with such a huge font that makes reading long emails a chore? etc), the lack of an "Open with" command when opening a file, the keypad shortcuts that are either missing or so well hidden that most people don't even know about them, the general lack of customization, etc, etc
Keep up the good work anyway.
... and what about the PIM apps? I would love to know why NOKIA think that having a calendar that can't cope with multiple day-spanning all day events is okay.
Steve & Co. you mention the weakness of the PIM system in every review (even, God forbid, the E90) and yet NOKIA appear oblivious.
I'm praying that very recent firmware upgrade to Steve's new E90 will magically contain a better contacts and calendar database ...
.. but I doubt it.
Slart.
elp: all GREAT comments about niggles in S60!
With regard to preaching to the converted, etc., remember that we're talking about my Smartphones Show, being watched by people from all over the tech world - it's not an AAS production, and 90% of watchers *won't* already know the things you know.....
8-)
Not that it's my job to defend S60, but I thought I'd comment on:
>> Like the really slow folder opening in Menu when you've got many apps installed
Valid more for some devices (e.g. E70) than others (N95), so probably FP1-dependent. And of course, not everyone has as many apps installed as you 8-)
>>the terrible Messaging email UI (what's this "Connect" menu item that really should be "Check emails"?
Semantics, you're actually 'Connecting' to a mail server - but yes, your phrase is more intuitive.
>>why don't email disappear right away when I delete them?
Because they're not deleted immediately on the server. They get zapped when you 'Disconnect' from the POP3 server etc.
>> why can't I scoll line-by-line in an email? Why are email displayed with such a huge font that makes reading long emails a chore?
Ah. You'll be wanting an E90 then, sir. Far less scrolling needed 8-)
>>The lack of an "Open with" command when opening a file
Er.... can you give an example here of what you're trying to do?
>>the keypad shortcuts that are either missing or so well hidden that most people don't even know about them
But then my 3-Lib tips pages would be out of a job!
>>the general lack of customization, etc, etc
With themes, ringtones, icon moving, etc. I'd say that S60 was extremely customisable....
Steve
>> Semantics, you're actually 'Connecting' to a mail server - but yes, your phrase is more intuitive.
>> Because they're not deleted immediately on the server. They get zapped when you 'Disconnect' from the POP3 server etc.
As a software developer, I understand perfectly the (programmer's) logic behind Messaging's behaviour and UI. But my point was that whenever I'm using Messaging to check my e-mails, I'm not a software developer anymore, I'm just an end-user who expects things to be logical and intuitive. And that includes being able to click "Check emails" whenever I want to check my emails and see my emails disapear from the Inbox whenever I delete them (whatever happens to them afterwards, I, and I'm sure 99.99% of the people out there, do not care).
>> Ah. You'll be wanting an E90 then, sir. Far less scrolling needed 8-)
I sure am wanting an E90. Unfortunately, despite my numerous hints, my girlfriend did not get me one for my birthday. Seriously thinking of getting a wealthier girlfriend before Christmas.
>> Er.... can you give an example here of what you're trying to do?
The same thing as what you'd do on a PC. You don't always want to open a Word document in QuickOffice, you might want to open it in the built-in Office suite instead. In practice, this Open With command would be most useful in Messaging to open hypertext links and attached documents in the proper application instead of opening them in whatever Messaging thinks is the best (no, Services is never the best for hypertext links in emails. Whoever at Nokia thought that it was a good idea to open all hypertexts links in Services must have had smoked way too much illegal substances before going to work this day).
>> With themes, ringtones, icon moving, etc. I'd say that S60 was extremely customisable....
Well, I'd say that this makes S60 as customisable as the average mid range phone. Themes, ringtones, wallpapers and such are all nice and cute and I wouldn't want to see them go away.
But with Multimedia Computers on one side (note the "Computer"😉 and Enterprise devices on the other, i'd expect more than just being able to change the ringtone or move icons around.
I'd expect to be able to set the default application to use to open specific file formats, to rename programs in the menu, to set the font size to whatever I want so that I can read more than one or two sentences at once on the screen, to affect special hardware keys (Recorder and Email key on the E61 for example) to any application I want, to customize the shortucts in *every* built-in application (I'm sick and tired of having to click Options then scroll 6 (!) times then click the joystick then scroll again just to be able to view the size of an email in Messaging in order to know whether or not it's reasonable to download it over GPRS. It should be possible to affect a shortcut for the Message Details option. Just an example) etc.
That's what I mean by customization. And what I hope we'll see in someday in S60.
1 thing the iPhone can do (that Symbian phones can't) is selling in the US. 1 month and nobody will care about your precious E90 and E61i LOL
Hi
Please tell me will i be able to Hear the Voice of videos i recorded by my E90
on my regular bluetooth headphone Like the Jabra BT500 i have now or Jawbone i will be getting
cos i will be talking on the bluetooth so if i sit down & recod home Videos on it can I sit & see my Videos & hear its Audio on my blue tooth head set & not have to carry an Extra wired or the Nokia Bluetooth headset to do that
Hope U understand 😊
Re: small annoyances in S60, whoever wrote the app 'Installer' application on the E61 needs to be shot ! If you have anything over a dozen applications installed, it takes 30 seconds to open up and present the list of apps. Does anyone actually test these things before releasing them ?
>>As a software developer, I understand perfectly the (programmer's) logic behind Messaging's behaviour and UI.
Yeah, I know, we're both playing devil's advocate etc 8-)
The message myself and most other folks have been banging home about the iPhone is that its interface will be intuitive enough to make other device makers think seriously about improving their own interfaces... which can't be a bad thing. Personally, I think 80% of some apps functionality should be hidden behind an 'Advanced' option, to help out beginners while still retaining functionality for when it's needed...
>>The same thing as what you'd do on a PC. You don't always want to open a Word document in QuickOffice, you might want to open it in the built-in Office suite instead.
Err... Quickoffice is the ONLY suite on the E61i and E90.... In almost all cases, there IS only one app to open each file type. Hence my confusion at your original statement.... 8-)
>>of opening them in whatever Messaging thinks is the best (no, Services is
No Services in the E61i and E90 and future devices. FP1 knocked it on the head!
>>Whoever at Nokia thought that it was a good idea to open all hypertexts links in Services must have had smoked way too much illegal substances before going to work this day).
I think they thought that it would open and display faster and with less RAM overhead. Annoying for power users though!
>>I'd expect to be able to set the default application to use to open specific file formats, to rename programs in the menu, to set the font size to whatever I want so that I can read more than one or two sentences at once on the
Etc. Good points, yep.
>>email in Messaging in order to know whether or not it's reasonable to download it over GPRS. It should be possible to affect a shortcut for the Message Details option. Just an example) etc.
YES! That's one I would love to see shortcutted as well....
Steve
kriegspiel wrote:Re: small annoyances in S60, whoever wrote the app 'Installer' application on the E61 needs to be shot ! If you have anything over a dozen applications installed, it takes 30 seconds to open up and present the list of apps. Does anyone actually test these things before releasing them ?
Not that I condone the appalling slowness of App Mgr, but if you just press 'C' (or backspace) on an app icon, it can be uninstalled FAR faster.....
Steve
Some would say that Smartphones are for the minority while the iPhone is aimed at the masses. BUT look at the sales of the N95! Nokia must have sold millions already. I was in London today and within 1/2 hour I saw three N95s in use. I think Euro consumers are going to be less convinced by the iPhone by the time it reaches us, late 2007.
kriegspiel wrote:Re: small annoyances in S60, whoever wrote the app 'Installer' application on the E61 needs to be shot ! If you have anything over a dozen applications installed, it takes 30 seconds to open up and present the list of apps. Does anyone actually test these things before releasing them ?
In addition to Steve's reply, how long does it take to open the list of installed software on your PC from the the Control Panel? Depending on how many applications you have installed (on a PC or your smartphone), you're bound to run into lag one way or another.
@elp, I'd love to see an "Open With..." command on s60 to choose between OfficeSuite and QuickOffice, but I'd much rather see my N95 open a document with one, predetermined application rather than none. There's still no word on whether or not the iPhone even supports the ability to read and/or edit office documents.
While I did enjoy this rant, only 9 of the 10 iPhone faults apply since we only get to see US 3G speeds on one locked and branded s60 device in the States. To the iPhone's credit, several rumors have been circulating rather heavily that an "iPhone 2.0" will come out with 3G built-in later this summer, but we know as much about that as we do the original iPhone right now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but #6 in the rant on the iPhone isn't valid.
It's the one about it being a touch screen not being visible out doors.
The comment is based on the current tech touch screens which have an extra layer on top of the LCD; but the iPhone, IINM, has tech that means you don't actually have to touch the screen. Instead it detects the electrostatic field of your finger (means it won't work with a stylus/etc?).
Of course, it might *still* not work too well outside, but for different reasons, I think.
...or did I get this completely wrong?
Just my 2 cents:
You keep repeating in your shows that Steve Jobs said that the iPhone "is five years ahead of any other phone" and then point to a software or hardware feature that has been available on other phones for years to prove he is wrong.
But Steve Jobs was talking about the operating system when he made that quote. That makes a lot of difference in my eyes. He was not talking about the hardware, which is somewhat underwhelming indeed (at least the American version, who knows what the European version will have).
When I did watch the keynote I thought "My Nokia & Motorola can do all that and more". But the iPhone does it a lot easier. There is no menu with submenu's containing options, no multifunction buttons to press. Judging from the keynote, it is very easy to operate. And I think that is the strenght of the iPhone. It is the software that makes or breaks a phone. Nokia might have better hardware but their software is not nearly as user friendly.
The same was true for the iPod. There were better featured products but none was as easy to operate and use. We all know which one was most sucessfull. I think the iPhone will have a similar effect.
While I think you have a point, many people will argue that NOT having many options restricts the user's ability to customise their iPhone. Not a problem for many (I have several iPods and like their simplicity), but not necessarily what one would expect of a genuine smartphone...
At the end of the day, Steve Jobs can bang on about the iPhone or the OS being 5 years ahead of anything else, but what you have is basically a non-extendable phone having a nice UI combined with an iPod; maybe very nice, but not necessarily earth-shattering.
The fact that you won't be able to buy an iPhone without a contract in the US maybe says it all....
Chemman wrote:
But Steve Jobs was talking about the operating system when he made that quote. That makes a lot of difference in my eyes.
Well, *I* was hoping that it might make a difference to the development of applications; that, perhaps, we could develop for OS X using the tools on there, but target the phone.
However, his comments pertaining to 3rd party applications aren't encouraging. It doesn't seem to be set in stone yet - we'll have to wait and see.
Max.
buster wrote:... a non-extendable phone...
Well, I've read that it's not completely decided yet. From what I've read, I wouldn't be surprised if they come out with something along the lines of Symbian Signed.
buster wrote:The fact that you won't be able to buy an iPhone without a contract in the US maybe says it all....
Well, it could be said that this is because they needed some sure-fire way of entering the market - not an easy thing to do in the US where almost no one buys contract-free phones. I wonder if they would have done better releasing it elsewhere...with 3G, it might have done pretty well in Europe.
"But Steve Jobs was talking about the operating system when he made that quote."
Exactly. Even with controlled external applications, the mobile OS X and its UI make Symbian to look like shit. On the US market Nokia smartphones will blow donkey nuts in the next couple of months. Not that anybody cared about them, except some Nokia fanboy geeks.
I completely agree with elp. I've been ranting about S60 since the 7650, and although the interface has evolved (slooowly), it is still far from a mature, intuitive UI in my opinion. Take a small app like Handy Taskman f.ex. You just hold in the Menu key and start typing the first few letters of the app you want to use - press the joystick, and voila there you are. Such a simple design, yet incredibly effective. As long as you remember the names of the apps you have installed, you never have to actually bring up the dreaded menu structure and scroll through various folders to find the app you want anymore. Makes me wonder why Nokia couldn't have made something similar...
Another annoyance of mine is how basic some of the built-in apps in S60 are - lacking many advanced options. Don't worry, I won't start comparing them to their Series 80 counterparts again... - Now that was an UI I really enjoyed using.
"Exactly. Even with controlled external applications, the mobile OS X and its UI make Symbian to look like shit. On the US market Nokia smartphones will blow donkey nuts in the next couple of months. Not that anybody cared about them, except some Nokia fanboy geeks."
The OSX interface is nice (my wife has a Mac). However, what works on a PC may not transfer very well to a phone. While I have no experience of S60 (I'm currently a UIQ user), the fact that Nokia sell more phones than everyone else combined probably implies that they're getting something right.
People who buy the iPhone will:
a. not care that they can't install 3rd party apps
b. not be bothered about being tied to one mobile operator
c. not mind that the iPhone's camera is basically rubbish compared to the latest Nokias
d. not worry about the lack of support for 3G.
On this basis, I would be very surprised if Nokia are the least bit worried by the (imminent?) arrival of the iPhone...
Raven wrote:Take a small app like Handy Taskman f.ex. You just hold in the Menu key and start typing the first few letters of the app you want to use - press the joystick, and voila there you are. Such a simple design, yet incredibly effective. As long as you remember the names of the apps you have installed, you never have to actually bring up the dreaded menu structure and scroll through various folders to find the app you want anymore. Makes me wonder why Nokia couldn't have made something similar...
The fact that you brought up Handy Taskman at all is another point in Nokia's corner, regardless of whether or not Nokia developed the application or not. Every single piece of 3rd party software that enhances the use of an s60 is another advantage over the iPhone since, as of yet, it isn't expandable at all.
I'm also not sure if you can complain about the menu structure in s60 since it is one that allows you to move any application into any folder or position of your choosing, with subfolders as well (not native on pre FP1 smartphones, but still possible). I often find myself trying to figure out how to set up my menu to access applications the fastest, versus only having one option users would have on a non-s60. I'd be most curious to see if the iPhone will allow you to reorganize the menu structure, or if users are going to be forced to deal with the icons where they sit.
The problem with apple fanboys is, they've been dying to get some kind of telephony function into their ipods. This is the real basis of their zealousness. It could be simply an ipod with a phone in it (which come to think of it, is more or less what the iphone is) and that will come to PWN ALL AND EVERYTHING even remotely related music players and mobile phones. That's all it takes. The rest is irrelevant. You can't argue with that unfortunately.
And apple fanboys, when youre tired of repeatedly pressing tiny onscreen keys and smudging the screen in futility because Sir Steve of Jobshire has deemed stylii unnecessary, you may want to think of buying a few spare stylii to keep on the side. Ah who am I kidding... that screen cleaning and futile tapping will just be your excuse for some kind of zen-like character development. Enjoy.
And Nokia fanboys, when you're tired of repeatedly pressing tiny hardware keys to scroll down on long contacts list or playlists, meanwhile iPhoners will zip through them with a flick of a finger on the anti-smudge coated screen and laugh at you, all the 23 US Nokia smartphone buyers.
Enough, guys! My Smartphones Show piece wasn't anti-iPhone, I'm sure it will do fantasically well for many, many people who simply don't want or need a full ultra-converged smartphone - I was just trying to put the device into perspective against devices like the N95 and E90 and to open a few people's eyes to the differences.
If I've learnt one thing over the last few years, it's that there's no one perfect device for everyone!!!
Steve
jonnybruha wrote:The fact that you brought up Handy Taskman at all is another point in Nokia's corner, regardless of whether or not Nokia developed the application or not. Every single piece of 3rd party software that enhances the use of an s60 is another advantage over the iPhone since, as of yet, it isn't expandable at all.
You're missing the point. I was merely saying that S60 isn't as great an UI, design-wise, as some people here like to portray it as. Let me just say that I don't give a donkey's arse about the iPhone. My computer OS of choice is OS X. Other than that I couldn't care less about any overpriced iThingies from Apple. However, I think elp's point was that an easy to use, intuitive UI matters a lot to many people, and that's where the iPhone may have a great advantage over S60 phones (sorry, 'multimedia computers'😉. Besides, it is probably only a matter of time before people start finding a way to add apps to it, just like they did for the iPod.
I'm also not sure if you can complain about the menu structure in s60 since it is one that allows you to move any application into any folder or position of your choosing, with subfolders as well (not native on pre FP1 smartphones, but still possible). I often find myself trying to figure out how to set up my menu to access applications the fastest, versus only having one option users would have on a non-s60.
Of course I can complain about it. And I do. Maybe too much sometimes. S60 might be OK on a more regular phone, or multimedia phone or whatever, but for their more PDA-like phones like the E61(i) and E90 etc. it needs some serious overhauling. As far as Symbian phones go, UIQ and Series 80/90 are far better UIs for the more advanced phones.
TankerX that is a very wrong thing to do. Why would you hang on his every word? He is not a god and he is no infallible. He is only human and can make as big mistakes as any other man. It is not a cult it is not a religion. That kind of behaviour totally closes your mind to anything else in the outside world and creates unnecessary hate for anything but...
I'm catholic and my family are quite devout, but i dont follow the bible blindly, i ask questions and i see the mistakes. I like Nokia, but they arent perfect. I dislike Motorolla, but i know they aren't worthless and i am open to the idea of purchasing one of their products.
I dont go around every forum that isn't Nokia, and troll with insults and hate like a childish idiot (ie Macboy).
Please, think about what you said and try to open your mind and heart. Microsoft aren't evil (too corporate), Apple aren't evil (just arrogant) and both have their advantages and disadvantages. Of course you choose what works best for you, but you don't become a Jehovah's witness and try to ram your beliefs down other's throats. I refer to the Apple community in general.... their attitude sickens me, and its sad that the company is feeding of it quite happily.
I'm not accusing you of being a bad person, this is just my immidiate feelings i had to air in reaction to that shocking statement. I'm not trying to convert you to anything, i'm just hoping that you arent as blinkered as our new resident troll. Technology is fun regardless of what brand and everyone is doing their best to advance to the next level. Enthusiasts like us should enjoy it and participate constructively. Pissing wars were left behind in kindergarten.