NO tomtom for symbian

I guess we already had figured this out ourselves, but it is nice to finally get confirmation. TomTom will not happen on S60!

Personally I think this makes the HTC Diamond even more interesting, as it looks to come with TomTom 7 integrated. I think I'll miss the great keyboard of my N95 8GB, though, and the full qwerty of the Diamonds big brother doesn't really appeal to me. But that's an entirely different story 😊

So... All of you guys waiting for TomTom: go BUY McGuider instead 😊

Well, that certainly looks like the penultimate nail in the coffin of TomTom on Symbian 😞 McGuider just got 100% more essential. However, McGuider has a strong partnership with Tele Atlas, and if TomTom do succeed in buying Tele Atlas, where does that leave McGuider ? Would TomTom impose restrictions on it or scrap it altogether so as not to damage sales ?

If so, then McGuider just got 100% less desirable.

Maybe Sygic would use another map provider ? It's all a bit shit, as they say.

Companies need to make up their minds and stop feckin' with their customers so we know where we stand and which product is the safest investment.

IMHO. its a myopic decision they are making.

From a business stand point, You always want your "brand" to be market dominant, even if the cost of doing that is that you incur some level of piracy or ripoff. Market dominance creates brand visiblity attracting new customers and brand trust to provide new customers with the level of comfort needed to hand over their pile of money for the TomTom pile of benefits....

To ignore this principal and stop supporting Nokia ( the most dominant brand in phones), because there is some percentage of piracy is to allow another competitor to fill that gap... They may never recover in the phone space .....

Useless rubbish about pirating deleted. Go to another forum.

Well said. Although I still say that the pirates are to blame. While I agree that Tomtom have badly lost out in effectively ducking out of the mobile satnav market (compare a single model HTC sales to all GPS enabled phones), I dont blame them for doing it.

If it was my product and piracy was at the same level, I would feel justified in stopping it.

However, I think its very obvious that it was a bad move for them.

Would be a much better way to go about it. For example, cheap to buy, but services (which you need to connnect online to with an account) cost extra. Mapshare, traffic, speed cams, all sorts.

A guy on another forum has some very good ideas that would make sense.

But even a system where you have to connect to a tomtom server every so often I would accept, if it stopped piracy.

Still, needless to say I dont see any change in policy. But how incrediably stupid of them not to fight nokia on the satnav market.

Im pretty sure it would put a massive dent in Nokia maps subscriptions if a new Tomtom version was availble for symbian. Instead they let Nokia maps gain a grip, and of course the others mentioned previously.

My question is, why isn't it obvious to them?

because they think that a mobile phone isn't good enough.

you just have to look at all the white van men, cab drivers and Joe public who have a TomTom who rave on about them and use them to go the to the toilet.

this is why, they think they are better, and in some ways they are, bigger screen, touch screen and a quicker lock.

but it's not practical to take this with you when you are not in the car, you can't slip it into your pocket.

it's either that or the people who make their hardware would throw a fit and stop making it for them.

They must do, because not only did they release navigator 6, but they are going to put it on a HTC.

And thats one of my pet hates. Aside from screen size and touch screen, theres no reason why a dedicated unit is better.

Phones are powerful enough, enough memory, enough connectivity (moreso in most cases), and make sense in many situations.

Oh well, up them. I just hope the profits continue to decline showing them it was a mistake.

I'm still in the "wait and see" camp. But i'm perfectly happy with navigator 6 anyway!

Regarding piracy as the reason.. I don't see it. People who pirate it are unlikely to have paid for it (unless there is a drastically re-thought pricing structure). However - the more people using the product, the more are likely to be tempted by premium services etc. Simply put - if they were to release a new version they will get more than enough money in to make a profit out of the release; using piracy as a reason for not doing so is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

It probably wouldn't have been so much of an issue if it hadn't been for the lack of support for the N95(etc) internal GPS - because the software itself is good in v6.

But if your aware of a huge amount of people using your product for free, its going to make you stop and think before spending money on making a new version thats also going to get pirated.

A while I daresay many whom pirated wouldnt have bought it anyway, theres many who would. Given a chance to pay �70 odd for something that you can have for free, with no chance of being caught, who does?

Just the people that realise it does actually damage things in the long run, even if it is software.

But dont mistake this for sympathy for Tomtom, whom have treated mobile/pocket pc users with something approching contempt.

Its just that I feel the rampant piracy is doing us little favour. Garmin, Sygic, TomTom and presumably some of the others are all being widely cracked and offerred on forums.

It gives such companies very little incentive to improve the products, and regardless of their actions, I cant say I blame them.

to be fair, it's their own fault that their software can be cracked so easily, but to be fair on that there are teams of people who have no lives and just try to crack software all day and all night until they do.

i've only ever once used the tomtom pirated version to see if it was good, un-installed it as i don't have an external GPS. but do you on the legal copy have to do a remote check to see if it is legal?

i know Psiloc do this with their software, used the IrRemote, although it can be gotten around it wouldn't be as easy

I cannot remember to be honest. Im sure you have to activate it over the air to register it on install.

I think the cracked versions negate this.

Having keys tied to an account is a better way of stopping it, but that makes it expensive to maintain and sell, and theres always the chance a hacker will stop it from having to check somehow.

bartmanekul wrote:They must do, because not only did they release navigator 6, but they are going to put it on a HTC.

And thats one of my pet hates. Aside from screen size and touch screen, theres no reason why a dedicated unit is better.

Phones are powerful enough, enough memory, enough connectivity (moreso in most cases), and make sense in many situations.

Oh well, up them. I just hope the profits continue to decline showing them it was a mistake.

It's also a major benefit that when you exit the car/van/truck, you usually take your mobile phone with you - TomTom and other dedicated GPS units are becoming the Nr#1 target for theft from cars.

As someone else said, if TT had supported the internal GPS unit of Symbian handsets last year, sales of R66 (and other products) would have been much lower.

The TT piracy argument for not continuing to support Symbian is rendered totally irrelevant when you look at the Online-Activation/Licensing and Key synchronisation employed by 66.com. When combined by the tightening up of SymbianSigned signing of apps, it's now more or less impossible to pirate Route 66 v8. (Yes I know there was a trial-hack but that loophole was quickly closed). If TomTom employed similar methods of licensing as 66.com, their revenue stream would be protected as Symbian piracy would be very low.

TT have lost me as a customer, as even though I agreed that TT6 was the best mobile sat nav on the market at the time, alternative products have caught up (maybe even leapfrogged) with performance and reliability. Even if TT7 came out tomorrow, I can't afford or justify buying another GPS system license, and no longer trust TT's commitment to Symbian customers.

Dez, could you give me a brief description of that method? I dont have a chance of finding that out as having a navigator I cant install R66 (its a firmware install) so I never see that activation process.

Bartmanekul,

Just think you are a bit extreme in your piracy views here. In all honesty, I think that the reason why TT is not going to release for the S60 is mainly to do with trying to consolidate their platforms.

Think about it.. I bet there was more pirated copies of TT on the WM platform than there was on S60 (or even on their own TT devices - people updating the maps themselves with keygens). Does this stop TT from writing the next version of their software for WM? No it doesnt. They have aligned with HTC as a strategic partner as HTC is producing most of the WM markets these days. Plus the benefit that their TT PNA devices is essentially running CE for the OS.

Nokia has stated before they see TT as an enemy in all this (especially when they bought out Navteq which are ex-partners of TT that supplies their maps). So it would be so dumb for TT to continue writing their app for S60 (since it is basically owned by Nokia).

Anyway.. thats some food for thought..

Possibly, but I dont think so.

While they are writing it for WM, its just being released on one model, and perhaps one manufactorer. If you were not worried about piracy, why would you restrict your sales in such a way?

If it wasnt about Piracy, they would surely release it for all WM devices, rather than being able to lock it to hardware.

As for not releasing it for S60, that doesnt make any sense at all. With Tomtom widely seen as the best one out there, it would give Nokia (and Garmin etc) some serious competition. As it is, its giving them a free reign.

If Tomtom were released now for Symbian, which do you think most people on this forum would go for, that or Nokia maps?

If piracy is not the concern, its actually really dumb for Tomtom not to make an S60 client. People are not going to move to WM (and HTC) just because Tomtom is not on S60. Simple fact is, if Tomtom released an S60 client, they would make a lot of sales, and challenge nokia as well. Otherwise, it makes sense. Because they cannot lock it down to the hardware (Nokia are not going to sell units preinstalled with Tomtom, and I cant see TT being interested in the other few who do S60 phones).

My opinion is that because they are writing a WM version but not opening it up to all devices, piracy was one of the main issues behind it. HTC sell a few, but there are plenty of other WM devices. So why not open it up to all if its written for it unless your worried about piracy?

But either way, while it may or may not have been the main contributing factor, I reckon its pretty certain that it was a consideration to say the least.

bartmanekul wrote:Dez, could you give me a brief description of that method? I dont have a chance of finding that out as having a navigator I cant install R66 (its a firmware install) so I never see that activation process.

I don't understand your meaning "its a firmware install" ? Do you mean you got a dedicated GPS device and not a mobile Symbina GPS app?

Licensing Method 1
Download & install the R66v8 SIS file and the UK/Ireland map (google them or download from 66.com/support where available). You will not be able to select the UK map or do navigation/searches as the map is 'locked'. However, if you then go to Extras->Maps->Buy Licence, the program will make a GPRS/3G connection to 66.com and allow you to enter Credit Card details to unlock your map for 49.99 Euros. You end up with a fully licensed R66 product at a lower price than the method 2...

Licensing Method 2
Simply order the entire UK R66v8 CD at 66.com for 69.99 Euros (including P&P). The CD will include paperwork with an activation key you can type in to 'unlock' the map after installation.

Both methods result in a fully licensed product, but method 1 saves you media and P&P costs.

Thanks, but that doesn't seem a very secure way, I can see that being cracked soon (if its not already).

By firmware install, the 6110N has the actual route66 program in the firmware. Maps are on the memory card, but you cannot update the program unless you update the firmware.

Sadly nokia realised this was a very bad way to do it, especially with a third party program. Support for route66 on Navigators is more or less non existant, and many times I have wondered if Nokia have had some sort of upset with R66.

bartmanekul wrote:Thanks, but that doesn't seem a very secure way, I can see that being cracked soon (if its not already).

Hi Bartmanekul,

Sorry you don't have the support levels you expect and need from 66.com with your device...

On the subject of r66 activation security, I would dispute your view that it's going to be hacked soon - 66.com's online activation has never actually been hacked in the several years they have been using this method. Yes, there was an unsigned cracked V7 SIS file last year, which totally bypassed the map activation process. Changes to SymbianSigned.com have rendered that type of crack unworkable. I think the fact that nobody has ever released a working map key generator for Route66 over several years is a good indication that the online activation process is very, very secure.

If TomTom (getting back on thread!) had employed a similar level of security to their own Symbian TT6 map activation process, there would have been few if any pirate copies in use.

bartmanekul wrote:People are not going to move to WM (and HTC) just because Tomtom is not on S60.

Dez - I didnt know that, if thats the case then that is really really encouraging. But then why the hell havent tomtom tried to make a better system if it would stop the rampant piracy? You cant help but think they are fudging it all up.

Sbc - Well, Im as weird as you 😉 I did consider moving to a new platform (WM) for Tomtom, but a few things have stopped me.

First is that I cannot get anything like the hardware I want from WM devices. Theres still nothing out yet that really compares to the N95 (or 6110 in my case) for WM.

Second is that although Tomtom is the best, theres been a huge upsurge in other satnavs being made for Symbian. And I think this will boom, and Tomtom will get overtaken eventually.

There are ways of installing applications though that dont require symbian-signed.

bartmanekul,
How would you feel about a HTC Diamond with a numerical slider keyboard? I don't think one is coming soon, but it could be exactly what HTC needs to win over a bunch of S60 users (along with a useful cam, of course). I don't want a touch screen-only device again. Been down that road for several years and writing while moving plain sucks. A full qwerty seems like overkill; it's big, requires two hands and the speed advantage over T9 is very small. Besides, it's too nerdy for mainstream smartphone users anyway 😊

I agree that TomTom is just another GPS app, or at least soon will be. The loss of the S60 platform is too huge for them to remain the king for long. GPS is the buzz and in 1-2 years no one will buy phones without it anymore. Why TT has missed that is beyond me...

The main reason for me wanting TT is that I 'grew up' using that app. Been using it for way longer than any other GPS program. You forget the problems over time, only remembering how great it was to finally be able to navigate using your phone 😊

Unplugged wrote:There are ways of installing applications though that dont require symbian-signed.

If you are talknig of SelfCert and Trk, they only work on V20+ FW, and only on the N95. (i.e. Not on the N82)

If you're talking something else, Bartman will probs be (rightly) upset.

no.. There is now a few ways to bring down the entire S60V3 system protection (like installing apps without certificates and the fact that you can get into any file on the C: Drive now). Its pretty dangerous but its pretty newish mod that makes the phone more flexible in a lot of people's eyes - but sacrificing security (which most idiots dont understand).

You will find that this will enable a lot of "new" cracks that was not available before because the app or licenses ended up being on the hidden part of C: Drive (including Bartman's R66v8 on his 6110 Nav).

bartmanekul wrote:Possibly, but I dont think so.

While they are writing it for WM, its just being released on one model, and perhaps one manufactorer. If you were not worried about piracy, why would you restrict your sales in such a way?

If it wasnt about Piracy, they would surely release it for all WM devices, rather than being able to lock it to hardware.

As for not releasing it for S60, that doesnt make any sense at all. With Tomtom widely seen as the best one out there, it would give Nokia (and Garmin etc) some serious competition. As it is, its giving them a free reign.

If Tomtom were released now for Symbian, which do you think most people on this forum would go for, that or Nokia maps?

If piracy is not the concern, its actually really dumb for Tomtom not to make an S60 client. People are not going to move to WM (and HTC) just because Tomtom is not on S60. Simple fact is, if Tomtom released an S60 client, they would make a lot of sales, and challenge nokia as well. Otherwise, it makes sense. Because they cannot lock it down to the hardware (Nokia are not going to sell units preinstalled with Tomtom, and I cant see TT being interested in the other few who do S60 phones).

My opinion is that because they are writing a WM version but not opening it up to all devices, piracy was one of the main issues behind it. HTC sell a few, but there are plenty of other WM devices. So why not open it up to all if its written for it unless your worried about piracy?

But either way, while it may or may not have been the main contributing factor, I reckon its pretty certain that it was a consideration to say the least.

Theres a lot of strong points to and against this argument, and we can debate it until the cows come home really. Unless we have the total sales/profit figures based on which platforms and the apparent piracy rates (and loss in revenue), then there is no telling whether or not it had contributed to TT's decision not to port it to the S60 platform.

I too wish that TT would port it natively to N95 as well as anyone - but if it wouldnt happen, then we just need alternatives. Garmin XT is probably the best one after TT given their competitive position in the PNA market along (against TT) and the fact that they have got a much wider map coverage than TT and most other providers (at least Garmin has an asian division that knows Asian has about 60% of the entire worlds population).

TT's main competitive edge however is its simplicity and the overall friendiness of getting from A to B. The competitors will pick up on this (including Nokia Maps)..

Just thank the lord you are not using a Crackberry for GPS.. now theres a "choice" there, right? 😊 😊

sbc -

Sounds nice, but I bet it wont measure up to the upcoming 6220 classic. Xenon flash, 5mp cam, GPS, and decent form factor. No, a *very* good form factor and size at that. As I think we have discussed before, as soon as Wm devices introduce something interesting, nokia beat it.

Not to mention the fact the 6220C will easily beat it on price.

Dez -

Yep. I do know these things are out there though, but as long as the conversation doesnt get into specifics, theres no point editing posts.

bchliu -

I have heard rumours about that, and I still cant think of any decent reason to do it. All I have seen so far is people being able to mess about with cosmetic stuff (appearance etc).

But from all the posts here, it looks like everyone agrees Tomtom are shooting themselves in the foot for not producing a new version, or at very least, making V6 more compatible for symbian.

Like you said sbc, I too cannot believe they cant see that mobiles are going to boom GPSwise. Its a no brainer, with the technology becoming next to nothing to add, and it getting smarter, how can it possibly not take off?

I envisage the day when it will be as simple as texting to send a mate your location so they can navigate to you.

With Garmin, you can already do this, but it has to be to another phone with Garmin on.

dez_borders wrote:If you are talknig of SelfCert and Trk, they only work on V20+ FW, and only on the N95. (i.e. Not on the N82)

If you're talking something else, Bartman will probs be (rightly) upset.

Nope you can practically unlock the entire s60 file structure with a few mouse clicks and a python script. While this will probably be stopped soon there's ways of adding registry keys so that particular applications ( say a file management ) have full system access.

You can install stuff my manually taking the sis file apart and injecting the correct files and folders into the file system.

Thinking a program wont get cracked is a very dim view to take. If the demand is there it will always be cracked if not by means of a key gen then someone will simply reverse engineer the executable or monitor its memory usage and break in that way.

Bit late for that methinks. Oh well, their loss.

I was speaking to the head of a software company a little while back who produce a hugely popular music sequencing application. His take on people cracking and pirating his stuff was that most of them would never have bought it anyway (couldn't afford/not bright enough to use it) so what has he lost ? Those that actually want it are usually the sort that will pay for it, especially to gain support and other benefits, and because they will invariably be power users/industry users who can afford it and use it fully.

In between those two groups is a demographic of people who are undecided on the application and will either not bother at all, or try a cracked copy then do the decent thing and buy it.

His company is still going strong, still uses the same authorization system (Serial Number/Challenge response) and the software still remains one of the top selling apps in it's field.

Piracy is wrong, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to cease development, a la TomTom.