In depth - Apple iPhone 3G versus Nokia N95 8GB

slitchfield wrote:I guess I ought to respond to some of the above comments!

"OS upgrades" - Apple's updates have been no more dramatic than many Nokia firmware updates, I'd say the two devices were on a par here
"Java" - by this I meant that you can install Java apps

OS Upgrades, except that the N95 8GB doesn't preseve data (unlike the N82) and there is no way Nokia will ever upgrade a Feature Pack 1 device like the N95 to Feature pack 2.

Java, no what you said under Web Browsing was and I quote

"A similarly good experience, this time limited by screen real estate and not bandwidth, with very similar browser code (both based on the same open source Web modules). Flash and Java support, including full Flash video."

which is just plain wrong the S60 browser does not support Java only Javascript the same as the iPhone.

Perhaps this draws a clear line which can never be compromised.

Theres those that want to be able to do everything, and theres those that want a nice, pretty and easy to use UI.

No-one has managed to combine both yet, and to be quite honest I dont think its possible.

How can you possibly get all the options you have on the current nokias into a UI like the iphone? I just dont think you can do it.

You want all those features for your 5MP camera? That requires submenus Im afraid.

The main difference I see is that with the original Apple gave people the bare minimum but made it GOOD. The focus was on those three things we kept reading iPod, Phone, Web. They've been busy filling in the missing bits with the software updates and the new 3G hardware update but they know they have a long way to go. They have a plan!

Nokia, on the other hand, have got so many devices and so many different markets to look at, they keep loosing focus. They have the most feature rich hardware and one of the best software platforms - but guess what - barely any of their customers use the phones to their full potential. They have E series devices with features the N series buyer want - but isn't allowed to have!! (And the same on the other side). I can imagine why they'de like to keep N-Gage to a specific set of devices - the hardware has top be there, but why would they keep software features locked to a small set of devices without a real world purpose?

I think Symbian is the most advanced mobile os in the world (to coin a phrase) but Nokia, SE and others have never used it's full potential because they've restricted themselves to specific criteria - which is fine when you need to grow your feature set but lacks foresight.

slitchfield wrote:"5MP might as well be 2MP" - Sorry, you're just plain wrong here. I've done a few articles on this in my time....

Yup, no use to compare the iPhone camera to that of the N95 or even the, in this regard, somewhat (compared to the N95 / N82) inferior N95 8GB. The Nokia has waaaaaaaaaay better camera - not to mention video recording.

slitchfield wrote:"Java" - by this I meant that you can install Java apps

1. You might want to dedicate an entire row to this as MIDP (MIDlet) support has nothing to do with the built-in browser. Putting "Java" in a web browser evaluation rows either refers to Java applets or, if you don't take into account the difference, JavaScript. (Also see my multiplatform W3C speech on these issues if interested.)

(2. Sun promises a MIDlet environment for iPhone. It;s, however, still not known if and when it becomes available.)

slitchfield wrote:"Mobitubia clunky" - NO - Mobitubia is superb in its latest version. And silky smooth

Well, Mobitubia DOES have problems with SOME (about 10%) of videos. It's only CorePlayer that plays everything w/o problems - at least in FLV (QVGA) mode. (When it receives H.264 hardware acceleration support, it hopefully will play back H.264 videos too with all its advantages; most importantly, 44 kHz stereo sound).

Make sure you all read my YouTube Bible (in the N95 forum here); in there, I've elaborated on ALL these questions.

Ben Frain wrote:The 5MP stills camera is quite another thing however. Whilst the hardware is probably up to great snaps, the photo taking software in the N95 8GB is so slow and unintuitive I hardly bother using it. A quick example: I can't even set my own preferred user setting to default. Every time I want to take a quick snap I have to wait for the camera to load (it's quite slow), then change all the settings, then take the picture. By which time the moment has invariably passed. Furthermore, there is such large amounts of jpeg compression applied, it may as well be a 2MP camera!

While I don't really know the camera app in the N95 8GB, the one in the v21 N95 is excellent. Also, the JPEG compression isn't THAT big. Are you sure you've left the app in its default parameters? then, it won't use much compression. (At least not on the N95. I don't know if the 8GB is different in this respect.)

BTW, a completely unrelated remark: many of us consider the N95 superior to the 8GB. Even Steve (if it was him that published the "which is the best: N82, N95, N95 8GB" some months ago). Why don't compare the N95 - instead of the N95 8GB - to the non-Symbian alternatives?

I have an n95-3, which I love. But I cant help but feel that nobody give the iPhone's Durability a fair judgement. it IS one of the most durable phones, (that is not designed to be a brick), where as my n95 started showing signs of paint chips on the buttons after 2 months.

metal and tempered glass is what all high class electronics should be made out of... I don't why the Eseries phones get special treatment.

In fact it is such a WRONG comparison...

First you are comparing with OLD Nokia.... Lets talk iPhone 2 vs N96 ... then we good to go!..lol do you have any doubt who is going to WIN.... even the meticore N82 is leap and bound ahead of iPhone...

The fact remains... no matter what iPhone still is and will always be a money minting machine for Apple....

In comparison Nokia brings up INNOVATION and EXCELLENT Products.... ... true no touch screen (yet) BUT.... there is NO comparison...

the N82 EASILY beats iPhone2 in ALL Aspects .....

Let's talk about MONEY .... the $200 iPhone.... HOLD ON WAIT A MINUTE... you have to SIGN a CONTRACTTTTTTTTTTTtttt.....

So $70 * $24 + $200 ... that's Freaking $1880...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and for a NETWORK LOCKED....

HAVE you guys thought about YOUR OWN PRIVACY?

DO YOU KNOW APPLE IS GOING TO CAPTURE PHOTOGRAPHS AND FINGER PRINTS.... THAT's why NO ONLINE SALES!.........

Yeah, but it's still glass, however well treated. Compared to the plastic of the N95's display. I know which I'd rather bet on when dropped onto the supermarket floor or pavement.

[BTW, thanks guys for the Java comments - I don't know what I was thinking and I've removed the offending couple of words in the article.]

I have plenty of Japanese friends and from what I understand there will be a Japanese input option for use within the iPhone, that'll seal the deal for me sadly. I say sadly cause I really want a 5mp camera in my phone so I don't need two devices.

I'm with Frank completely.
Sure, Symbian smartphones have more features, but those are 'geek-only' features. Not many people are eager to use them. And finding 'normal audience' really usable features can be quite painful. The default menu setup is a mess.
iPhone has less features but completely visible (not hidden in Submenus/MORE buttons/Options buttons) and accessible (all on the standby screen).
Heck, just the Access Point selection between WiFi/Cell in every application drives me crazy!
Now, to solve those craziness, they have not fixed the OS (which could have had an AP Prefs list) but started to introduce Default/Standby AP concept in every 'new' app, like E-Mail, Mail for Exchange, N-Gage etc. Now if I get home I still need to change settings, but now it's more difficult (I have to go to Options).
What a mess! And for how long...

The Iphone's ability to sync beautifully with iTunes is it's main advantage. It's inability(legally) to do multi-tasking makes me consider the stability/security of OSX on the Iphone. Programing in C objective alone aren't going to give programmers enough power.
The Iphone has an advantage of getting free marketing on every media. Certainly the marketing budget for the Iphone must be minimal.

Menneisyys wrote:While I don't really know the camera app in the N95 8GB, the one in the v21 N95 is excellent. Also, the JPEG compression isn't THAT big. Are you sure you've left the app in its default parameters? then, it won't use much compression. (At least not on the N95. I don't know if the 8GB is different in this respect.)

You're kidding right? Using the default parameters a 5MP image from the N95 8GB is saved on the N95 8GB at around 500-900K? I don't know what you define as 'big' amounts of compression but if you are happy with that you may want to get down to specsavers...

I have a compact 3.2MP Pentax that produces images around 3-4MB and my SLR's start with JPEGS around the 6MP mark. 500-900K is unusable for any serious work. Which therefore relegates it to being 'just for kicks' like the iPhones. I'm not defending the iPhone camera because it is pants. I'm just saying the N95 8GB implementation needs a lot of work.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. A lot depends on the quality of the JPG compression - a well crafted 1MB image might be far better than a badly crafted 5MB one. Size isn't, contrary to the spam I get each day in my email inbox, everything.

Neither are megapixels everything. There are many, many factors involved in producing a good and useable image. I'll admit that the N95's images might not satisfy a full-time professional photographer, but they're a whole generation better than the miserable images from the iPhone - I've tested each in identical conditions.

slitchfield wrote:Sorry, but that's rubbish. A lot depends on the quality of the JPG compression - a well crafted 1MB image might be far better than a badly crafted 5MB one. Size isn't, contrary to the spam I get each day in my email inbox, everything.

Neither are megapixels everything. There are many, many factors involved in producing a good and useable image. I'll admit that the N95's images might not satisfy a full-time professional photographer, but they're a whole generation better than the miserable images from the iPhone - I've tested each in identical conditions.

Steve I have also tested both at length and, as already stated, I don't argue that the images produced by the iPhone are risible and the N95 8GB's are better. But a 'whole generation better'? I would strongly argue that claim.

The facts speak for themselves: the still images produced by the N95 8GB are not only poor, especially given the lip-service paid to it's technical specs - they are also slow to capture and store. Whether this is due to CPU intensive compression algorithms/writing to the on board memory etc I would think only a Nokia engineer could tell you for sure. However...

Steve, are you seriously trying to argue that the N95 8GB is employing an incredibly sophisticated JPEG compressor that can crunch an image to that size (500-900K) without compromising quality? If so I suggest they outsource it to Canon and Nikon...

If this is your hypothesis, and it is correct (the compression technique does this without sacrificing image quality) then the N95 8GB truly has got an awful camera!

It simply isn't a realistically sized file for a photo of any quality of that pixel dimension (5MP).

The Iphones build quality is streets ahead, as is the screen, and whats this bumpf about a "professional lens" ?. Only the BT and camera are huge advantages in the n95 8gb's favour.

Ben Frain wrote:Steve, are you seriously trying to argue that the N95 8GB is employing an incredibly sophisticated JPEG compressor that can crunch an image to that size (500-900K) without compromising quality? If so I suggest they outsource it to Canon and Nikon...

You're right - I've thoroughly scrutinized the output of the JPEG encoder, the (lack of) different quality settings. It indeed uses pretty much compression.

I haven't really noticed this before because I didn't look at the results on the pixel level - when printed as a 4x6 pic, the output of the N95 is still excellent and the heavy JPEG compression, IMHO, is barely visible (if at all). The N95 is the first phone I can really depend on and don't feel I need to take my IXUS 960 IS (SD950 IS) with me everywhere.

I hope Nokia comes up with an additional quality level setting - or a third-party camera app is released, with an alternative JPEG encoder. (Which was, BTW, the case with Windows Mobile and CECam - see http://forum.brighthand.com//forum/thread/212709/ if interested for more info on the very similar problems plaguing some past WinMo models.)

Ben Frain wrote:You're kidding right? Using the default parameters a 5MP image from the N95 8GB is saved on the N95 8GB at around 500-900K? I don't know what you define as 'big' amounts of compression but if you are happy with that you may want to get down to specsavers...

I have a compact 3.2MP Pentax that produces images around 3-4MB and my SLR's start with JPEGS around the 6MP mark. 500-900K is unusable for any serious work. Which therefore relegates it to being 'just for kicks' like the iPhones. I'm not defending the iPhone camera because it is pants. I'm just saying the N95 8GB implementation needs a lot of work.

You're right - I haven't really checked the output filesizes of the camera.

you are incorrect. on ATT the n95 is considered a regular phone, which only needs the 15 dollar unlimited data plan. i've been using it forever along with everyone else with an n95. and the n95 is not subsidized like the new iphone. so its not a comparison you should make. i can go to los angeles and find an import shop, get an n95 for 150USD with new ATT service. so now how does that stack up against the new iphone in terms of price?

As a long time Nokia phone user and one of the first owners of a N95 in Finland, I have to agree with some of the above comments that the Apple iPhone is the better overall device when it comes to sheer joy of simply USING the damn thing.

Especially the comment above of "random applications that don't really work together" is spot on! Symbian on N and E series is a nightmare to navigate. Incredibly clumsy.

The devil is in the details. How fast applications load and how smooth really does matter when you consider the overall experience! There are NO glitches when switching apps in the iPhone, compared to N95 for instance which reminds me of old computers where screens "glitch" and show random colors when starting applications.

However, I was severely disappointed by the incredibly bad camera on the iPhone 3G. I use the camera and especially the video recording functions on the N95 all the time. Every single day! They are very important to me as I do not want to carry an extra camera with me all the time. The N95 picture/video quality is enough for every day snapshots that you even dare to publish online and in print!

Bottom line for me: When apple makes an iPhone with a good camera/video recording at 30fps, 640x480, then I'll buy, immediately and never look back! However, for the time being, I will have to make do with the N95.

Cheers!
ns

Just thought of a big one in favour of the N95 8GB if you have any concerns over long term radiation and cell damage from phones: SAR rating. Whilst the N95 8GB is something like 0.79, the iPhone 3G is 1.4! Very high in comparison (yes, I know that isn't a perfect measurement of likely radiation absorption but it is the only comparable data we have at present)

I had a E-61 and I had no trouble configuring it. Anyway the bottom line is taht the N95 8GB is far more better, very manly and a hardy phone than the iphone. My wife uses an iphone and yes it looks good but thats about it. I find the iphone to be very inpractical and ladylike, I use almost all the features on my N95 8GB appart from GPS on a daily basis and I don't have a sigle complain appart from the batteryy life.

Frank stop writing programmes especially for mobile phones, sorry mate I don't think you're any good at it as I had no trouble configuring mine at all as I mentioned earlier.

RogerPodacter wrote:you are incorrect. on ATT the n95 is considered a regular phone, which only needs the 15 dollar unlimited data plan. i've been using it forever along with everyone else with an n95. and the n95 is not subsidized like the new iphone. so its not a comparison you should make. i can go to los angeles and find an import shop, get an n95 for 150USD with new ATT service. so now how does that stack up against the new iphone in terms of price?

While you are right, the N95 is not subsidized, that is the point. The original article compared the subsidized prices in Europe, but the N95 is far more expensive in the US. Sadly, your idea for an import still falls short, because the import N95 do not have US 3G. I am not going to bother with a smart phone if it means going back to Edge. I liked my 9300, but the speed was an issue.

I used to have the same $15 data plan, when I had my 9300. It's a nice deal. Unfortunately, when I tried to get another smart phone last weekend, I found that it is no longer available. You can keep it if you already have it, but getting a data plan now your only options are a regular data plan for $30 or one with tethering for $60.

I should note the original post about the price differences was wrong about the data plan prices. The plan for non-iphones is listed as $35, but that is without a voice plan. With a voice plan, it is $30, same as the iPhone. So, the price difference is ONLY $550 more for the n95-8GB.

Jack

I definately won't be buying a 3G iphone, and it's partly because of specs, but mainly because of restrictions.
i) I don't want to use iTunes as my music library
ii) I don't want to be tied to one network operator
iii) I don't want to be tied to a long contract
iv) I don't want to buy a bluetooth device only to find it's functions have been crippled

I know some of these things can be fixed by jailbreaking, but who wants a very expensive device with no warranty?
As long as Jobs keeps trying to force me to do things his way, he won't make a penny out of me. Apple seem to have very little regard for their customers (charging for firmware updates?) while Nokia with their Comes With Music have found a great marketing tool as well as a way of rewarding loyalty. Can anyone imagine Apple giving a year's free iTunes downloads with every iPhone/iPod? It'll never happen...

did you find out how many times a N95 crashes compared to an iphone?

Im about 4 seconds faster than my N95 8Gb, its so annoying.

Nokia arent innovating, i see a new N-series phone, try it out, oh wait, its EXACTLY the same phone but in a different shell, i liked sony ericsson because every new k-series phone you got some great new stuff.

Jesus christ nokia maps is really bad compared to google mobile maps. i dont know how google can make a better java app then nokia but they have done it

And what is the point of the flick out music bit? By the time i go from looking at a picture to trying to play a track ive lost interest

First, I have to agree with all Iphone defenders � phone�s interface, speed, multitouch are incredible comparing to all devices we have on market. Not by chance, WM users try to mimic, Linux users try to mimic and eventually everyone will get there. BUT I just can�t (even on a new Iphone) do things, which I do on my n95. Therefore, I do not care about interface. In addition, here is the catch. As was said before, many people get Smartphones with contract for free and even don�t know what they have in their hands. So, I meet those on work, among relatives, in friends circle. Occasionally they see as I literally speak sms to my phone or by using fring my bills are much, much smaller then theirs, etc, etc. At the end they ask � �how is that, I want it, teach me, send me etc, etc�. I repeat, most of those things you just cannot do even on hacked Iphone, so the verdict is obvious. Mike

I think the iPhone 3G is more of a software play than a hardware one. Nokia is selling the N95 based on features which is the traditional way of doing it, Apple iPhone markets the 3G iPhone by selling the user-experience. Quantitative vs. qualitative.
I see the 3G iPhone as being more of being an anti-RIM than an anti-Nokia because its aiming at the corporate users.

-- Igor Roth

I don't have an iPhone, but I do have an iPod Touch, and en E90. The interface on the Touch is streets ahead of anything else I have used, but the Touch (and therefore the iPhone) is limited by the many things that it can't do.

Someone referred to the iPhone's fast switching between apps. While that is also true of the Touch, it is hardly multi-tasking when many, if not most, apps shut when they are sent to the background. An example; you start editing a contact, switch to another app, come back to Contacts, and the edit screen has closed. This is exactly how UIQ2 used to work, and it's a pain in the ****. If I do the same thing on my E90, wheneverI go back into an app, it's usually (not always, I grant you that) as I left it; much more user-friendly.

Another issue which apple have not yet sorted out is the random date/time bug. Connect an iPhone/iPT to a Windows PC which has come out of hibernation, and just watch iTunes change the date and time on your device change to something random. I don't use my iPT as a PDA, so it's not a problem for me (just very irritating), but if you do intend to use your shiny apple hardware as your main agenda, this bug becomes fairly serious.

I personally think the iPhone is a great piece of hardware, and apple have got many things right with it, but they have got some way to go before they catch up with the likes of Nokia in the all-round smartphone stakes. Maybe that's not what apple intend to do, which is fine, but comparing an iPhone with an N95 is like comparing apples with pears (no pun intended!!)....

"Because what Apple are good at doing is aiming at the masses and creating brand loyalty. The overall compelling experience of using an iPhone if you look at it from the standpoint of Mr. and Mrs. Average is much higher than an N95."
No, what apple is good at is marketing. If nokia put up the same kind of money to market the n95, no one would be talking about the iphone.

Thanks for the comparison - the use of 'awesome' doesn't bother me as I have an original N95 and it would be fair to say that the camera is indeed 'awesome'. Equally though, it is fair to say that it is annoyingly slow to activate and configure to your required needs. I've loved having the N95, but in truth I've done little with it. Being able to download 3rd party apps that geotag your photos and then allow you to post directly to Flickr wasn't a selling point for me - quite simply the 5MP camera is what did it. Can you imagine how amazed and astounded I was when I got the thing home and found out how many other wonderful additional features it had that I didn't know about. I was over-the-moon - I'd struck phone gold!!

Ah, but that's not the end of the story. Browsing on the N95 really bugs the hell out of me - move right to login to a site, move left to see the side menu, move right again to see the main content - grr and argh! Frustration in the extreme. It's nice that the N95 can do these things but it doesn't do them in a way that feels like a happy experience - it feels like hard work. I work in the IT field and should be more tolerant than this and should appreciate the capabilities of the device, but I don't, I just can't be bothered most of the time - much like Ben Frain (above).

The menu structure on the S60 is really, really bad - come on, lets face it, it's deep and non-intuitive and slow. Where are you going to find the calculator? - in the 'Applications' folder or the 'Office' folder? Tedium in the extreme. Just how slow is that 'Gallery' to load - even with a hotkey. Don't get me wrong - I really do love my N95. I could have gotten the original iPhone, but noone with half a brain buys a new version of Windows until SP1 is released (unless they're stuffed having to buy a new PC and Vista is already on it of course) - same principle applies here in my mind.

If I do get the iPhone 3G I think the only things that will bother me are:

1) No video recording (Could this change through software changes? idk tbh)
2) Can't link using bluetooth (but how often do you do that really anyway?)
3) Can't send MMS messages unless VGA something or other ... ( so actually, it can be done - are you sending to another person with the same quality of screen as you or is it smaller? )

Bonuses of iPhone 3G, imho:

1) O2 data plans include 'unlimited' downloads now - same for any browsing phone tbh, but not all can do YouTube, iPlayer and more in the future I'm sure.
2) Simplicity of use - this is huge!! So many more people will be able to do things they just can't be 4r53d doing on things like the N95.
3) [compared to iPhone original] - much more reasonably priced!!

Betwixed-and-between issues:

1) The battery - but then I've never needed a new battery before I've gotten a new phone, so really this issue is mute for me.
2) I like the idea of drinking coffee whilst using the phone - seriously though, while you tilt the cup to your face to take a drink, are you really raising your other arm up so you can see the screen of your N95 to make sure you're selecting the correct contact from your contacts list? A little bit of an insane point if you don't mind me saying so. I text with 2 hands on the N95 right now (for speed) - so what's the difference?

I hope I've helped others rationalise this - the iPhone 3G does sound quite good.
If you don't mind putting a bit of effort into bending things to your will then I'd say you probably still want the N95.
If you want something a little different, maybe lacking one or two things but what it does it does really well, then I'd say you probably want the iPhone 3G.

Nothing can be all things to all men (or women for that matter).

Regards,

Zanzizi

The two phone cant be really compared i Think. The iPhone just came out some years ago as Apples first phone. They are still in the middle of gettting everything onto it that people want. And they are really doing it. The Nokia has a lot slower processor then the iPhone does. I think the difference is 200Mhz. Since the iphone has a 630Mhz and the Nokia a 400Mhz processor. The iPhone has bigger screen, multi touch and a LOT of sodtware and great 3D games to come if you have seen the Keynote. The only thing the Nokia is completly better is the Camera. Thats sure. Thats only my opinion of course :]