Williamoni wrote:Nice test Steve.One point though - using the phone to make phone calls is very important and I would be interested to see how the devices compare on that too.
This could also include recording calls - something Symbian has always been very strong (and WinMo very weak) at.
Nice shootout Steve 😊
@notmicro
The iPhone version 2 firmware doesn't support Bluetooth syncing of contacts and calendar items, and I doubt it ever will.
You can sync contacts and calendar over Wifi (using MobileMe) or contacts, calendar, music, video, photos over USB using iTunes.
2 quick points:
On Rail Enquiries. May I heartily recommend the excellent traintimes.org.uk to anyone looking for, well, train times int the UK. I was alerted to it a few years ago by the NTK newsletter as a less bloated way of accessing the National Rail timetable data than the then horibly and unecessarily script-ridden official site. Therefore, while it's not avowedly mobile oriented, it makes great sense for a mobile user. It also has some dead handy features, like bookmarkable URLs (eg http://traintimes.org.uk/hitchin/cambridge will take you to the next few journeys from Hitchin to Cambridge, while http://traintimes.org.uk/hitchin/cambridge/10:00/next-tuesday/16:00/next-wednesday specifies the out and back times; other modifiers are available...). Possibly the coolest new (since Feb this year) feature for an S60 user is the "add to calendar" feature; once you've picked the best journey, simply click "add" and each leg of the journey is added as an entry to your phone's calendar. It's been put together and developed by one of the mysociety.org chaps and is as fine a piece of work as any of the much lauded mysociety pages.
On Podcasting. Given you mentioned the other S60 options for YouTube, I'm surprised you didn't mention the excellent free Nokia Podcasting app...
Just going to add a few comments here (I imagine Steve will add his too later). Steve and I had a conversation / brain storm over what to include. It quickly became apparent that it is very difficult picking typical tasks because everyone is different. So you do have to take this into account. I note plenty of comments say 'what about etc' and yes there are other things you could include. The reality is we all use our device in different ways, so something like this can only ever be considered one point of view (that said we did try to do a reasonable cross section). Interestingly we threw out some ideas as we knew, before doing any testing, they would hopelessly favour one handset.
Antoine of MMM wrote:Again, please do not take this as being a harsh critism; I think this is probably one of the better types of comparative reviews that I've read from you. However, the validity of the review is marred because of your imbalances in the scoring. In such a high profile review, I'm not sure that AAS should have to answer to any biases because of testing methodology inconsistancies.
Antoine - all feedback is good 😊 I suspect Steve will weigh in himself here, but a few things to note. The 1-20 scale allows for gradations which a 1-2-3 scale does not. It is therefore more accurate not less as you suggest (IMHO). For something there's little difference between two device and for others there is a big difference. Surely its fairer if a device loses more marks for doing something very badly? Indeed ideally people would mark how important something is to them and we'd weight the scores accordingly and give you a personalised score.
Designing fair comparisons is very difficult as I note above because everyone is different. For some touch is essential, for other its a decent camera... Other will put up with a mediocre function because it is compensated elsewhere - someone else wont make that compromise etc etc. We try to be as objective as possible in our evaluation across the whole site.
People inevitably regard this site as being pro-S60, pro-Symbian, but we like to think we do our very best to maintain balance. Just because we primarily cover Symbian stuff doesn't mean our objectivity goes out the window. If you think we've been unfair somewhere please let is know - we value everyone's opinion.
Unregistered wrote:why are you even including an s60 phone in the comparison?
For one thing, the contacts section sucks. So does calendar. As does messaging. Dont tell me I am abnormal for wanting to do all these things.Also got to pay $$ for all the stuff other people take for granted. Someone has already mentioned skyequikey (simiilar functionality available in latest SEs at no extra cost). Same goes for sms/call managers, a list of recently text'd contacts(WOW). Etc etc
Real people buy s40 or uiq phones.
It is not about cost either.
If you have ever used a p1i or a z8 or a 6270(as you have, steve), you'll know.
- a former e90 user.
P.s. I havent been a nokia user for 15 years, but I have been one for seven years. JUST GIVE ME A PHONE. I have an n800 for all the other stuff.
That's what makes these things difficult to do. Everyone has a different opinion of what is good or what they need...
Williamoni wrote:Nice test Steve.One point though - using the phone to make phone calls is very important and I would be interested to see how the devices compare on that too.
Plenty of comments like this - and i agree - but there's only so much space. Actually calling functions is one area where the N95 excels (IMHO).
Good comparision, Steve! This is what it comes down to, how good can I do what I want on which device.
I am right now considering the N95-8GB, the E71 or the iPhone as my next phone. As movie recording is not an issue to me, they are much closer for me.
My killer apps are mobile internet and time management.
One important pro for the iPhone that is missing IMHO is the screen resolution. For mobile browsing, the QVGA resolution of Nokia devices is quite limiting. And Q9 does not help at entering URL's, so the iPhones on-screen-keyboard is quite an advantage.
But an important con for the iPhone is IMHO missing to:
"Buy the device at the dealer who will give you the best price (choose from many) and get a contract that fits your needs best (choose from many providers)"
iPhone: maybe 5 points, in case that you like the contract, the iPhone is offered with in your country.
Some replies(!)
@sdeetz:"the iphone picked up my exact position and was ready to start tracking my walking a full 60 seconds before the N95 was. And it is very "
Your N95 can't have the latest firmware then, my N95 gets a GPS lock in under 10 seconds a lot of the time, and always under 20. And my comparison already credited the iPhone as having a fast lock, I believe.
>>Next, I tested out the downloading of high res images off the internet that you described. I chose a full 5MP image that I have posted on my personal web page. It saved fine to the photo library, and opened up no problem on screen.
Hmm... yes, I guess this might be Touch firmware issue - my conclusion though, that Apple still have some work to do, and that the downsampling to VGA was still a huge problem, are valid.
>>Also, I agree about your Safari comments, but you have to take some of that with a grain of salt. The whole point of Safari is to take you to the REAL internet pages, not a mobile version. So of course, there will be some sites that are easier to navigate with a stripped down mobile version, but do you want that for every site?
I'd rather a browser worked with both. As S60 Web does. 8-)
>>One is video. If you need it, obviously you want the N95. Period. I don't shoot video at all on my N95, so this is not a consideration at all for me. Since
Absolutely. But anyone with a family or active hobby will surely want to shoot video at some point?
>>Second is the keyboard. I type a ton of emails on my phone while I travel, and the lack of a keyboard on the N95 means it stays in my bag more often, and I reach for the iphone to do my emails. This is the big one for me.
To be honest, neither are great for long emails. That's what Bluetooth keyboards are for, as you noted. I keep mine in the car glovebox, so it's always to hand when I'm out and about. Pity the iPhone can't use them yet, but..... 8-)
@brendan: Absolutely, and many will agree with your scores. But this was a task-based feature, not a subjective 'likeability' thing, so...
@Antoine: good points, but the feature was already many, many hours work - I haven't got time to break the 12 points down into even smaller score increments. The scores I gave were based on performance and my own 'expert'(!) opinion - bear in mind that I've used almost every device on the market and hopefully my own gut feel ratings carry some weight. A simply 1,2,3 wouldn't have worked, since in some cases one device was light years ahead of another, while in other cases they were very close. I wanted to give a lot of room for variations.
@Williamoni: all the devices here made phone calls very well. What is there to say?
@fbloise: "And since this is a S60 based website, you will (believe me!) always make nokia win."
Not at all. After completing the first few categories, I thought 'Heck, the iPhone's going to run away with this....' As it turned out, I hit enough showstoppers after that (video was always going to be one of them of course) that the N95 still won comfortably.
@TomJ:"I'm surprised you didn't mention the excellent free Nokia Podcasting app..."
Yes, good point, although the existing solution is good enough and I'm still not convinced that the average user will use Podcasting. The user will find a feed in a web page and think 'now what do I do with this?' etc.
Steve Litchfield
Seems like a pretty fair comparison to me. I'd only make two points. One, as you mention, the N95 8GB has been out a while and had several firmware updates since it's release. The other two are brand new. Lets not forget the original N95 was almost unusable for certain things. It took a good couple of updates for it to become as good as it is. The Diamond has improved massively from ROM 1.35 to 1.37 and more updates are on the way.
The other thing is the "take a picture and send by email". I can do this in less than 15s. What were you doing? It pops up with a button on-screen giving you the option to send it by email as soon as a pic is taken. Once in Pocket Outlook you start typing the name of the person you want to send it to and it starts listing those names that match. There are no "fiddly controls" or menu options. Is this maybe just a case of you being very familier with S60 and less so with WM?
I could go on about the point of WM being flexibility and the ability to customise the experience to suit you by adding your own shells, apps etc but I actually don't think that applies to the Diamond. I think HTC have taken the view that this will be bought by people looking for an "out of the box" experience.
Bassey wrote:
I could go on about the point of WM being flexibility and the ability to customise the experience to suit you by adding your own shells, apps etc but I actually don't think that applies to the Diamond. I think HTC have taken the view that this will be bought by people looking for an "out of the box" experience.
Agreed. I think what a lot of power users forget is most people use the device largely as it comes. This I think hurts Windows Mobile most, then S60, then Apple (in general). Related to this is most people still buy a device through an operator and that has impacts upon availability, pricing etc etc.
Just another aspect of why it is difficult to say one device is better than another.
I cant believe you put the N95 above the iPod touch/iPhone for music transfer.
c'mon itunes/iTMS is 1000xmore seemless than WMP/nokia music store/pc suite.
also bluetooth headphones, who ACTUALLY uses them to be an issue. as they are mostly terrible at the moment.
- the video test was unfair and skews the results. it's like adding in touch screen sensitivity as a test.
- contacts app on the N95 is a pile of smelly pants. how about adding the following test - look up the address of a contact. As on N95 you have to edit the address field to view it. nice nokia!
- you are a power s60 user - most 'normal' users would struggle to match your times. The calendar test took me over a minute on my n95. I sold my iPhone so cant comment on how long it would take me on that.
- use www.traintimes.org.uk - always!!! enjoy.
I like both phones, but comparing them is kinda pointless.
that said its an entertaining and polemic post.
>>I cant believe you put the N95 above the iPod touch/iPhone for music transfer. c'mon itunes/iTMS is 1000xmore seemless than WMP/nokia music store/pc suite.
Nope, I disagree. Windows Media Player integration with modern S60 handsets is superb and seamless. And faster than iTunes. iTunes only starts winning once you factor in people wanting to BUY DRM-ed music online.
>>also bluetooth headphones, who ACTUALLY uses them to be an issue. as they are mostly terrible at the moment.
I used them yesterday to listen to Pink Floyd while out fast-walking. Sounded pretty good to me.
>>- the video test was unfair and skews the results. it's like adding in touch screen sensitivity as a test.
I agree it skews them slightly, but taking at least basic video clips is a FUNDAMENTAL for a phone these days. Which is why the task was included. If the iPhone can't do it then I'm afraid it deserves the 'zero' here etc.
>>- contacts app on the N95 is a pile of smelly pants. how about adding the following test - look up the address of a contact. As on N95 you have to edit the address field to view it. nice nokia!
Agreed that this is sub-optimal. But only an occasional annoyance, at least in my life. Still, would be nice if Nokia fixed their screen-wrapping!
>>- you are a power s60 user - most 'normal' users would struggle to match your times. The calendar test took me over a minute on my n95.
Nah, I'm average. I get lots of emails actually, saying how slow I am at texting. Trust me, my speeds are average.
Steve
You can turn off Touchflow 3D on the HTC, it is just a homescreen plugin.
In spite of titanic work done by AAS, i think this comparison is irrelevant 'cause the main feature of any smartphone, is its ability to install 3rd party (native, java, widgets etc.) and therefore to adjust, optimize the device for your needs. You write about it yourself all over the article by mentioning those widgets, java clients etc. What is the point to compare, let's say, windows, mac os and linux without the bulk of software comes with each of them. Especially when you can almost 100% mimic each one on each one (same in smartphone world). So a winner in my opinion is a device, which i can adjust in most possible ways including even tethering with hardware inside (processor speed, bluetooth stack etc.), changing UI for whatever i desire and having most possible software choice available for today. The winner is obvious.
"Nokia N95 8GB: 50 seconds using built-in Messaging, accessing GMail via IMAP push email, slowed by the speed of Messaging and the clumsy access point selection etc."
Steve, what were you doing? Did you go for a cup of tea or something?
I just measured it on my E90 and it was a little under 30 seconds.
Aso, what do you mean 'clumsy access point selection'? If you have selected an access point in the settings, then it isn't 'IMAP push'. The whole point is that it needs to be connected constantly, so you need to set the automatic retrieval setting to a little less than the server's timeout (or other causes of disconnections) so that it remains connected.
In my test, I :
1) made sure Messaging was connected to the server by checking the 'Options' menu says 'Disconnect' (and not 'Connect'😉.
2) send myself an email from another account (yahoo or something)
3) wait a few seconds for the server to tell Messaging it has a new email
4) start the timer
5) select the message (D-up) and click on it (D-middle)
6) wait for message to download and display - this is where it takes time
7) reply - Options/Reply->To Sender
8) wait for compose screen to appear
9) send - D-middle/"Send"
10) wait for return to message list
11) stop the timer
For me, that took a little under 30 seconds. I don't know what you were doing for the other 20 seconds.
BTW, using IMAP in Messaging is *NOT* the same as 'push email', even if you do manage to make it stay connected the whole time. This is because Messaging does not automatically download the message body when the IMAP server tells it there's a new message - only the message header.
This difference is more significant for people who don't check their messages immediately and/or network connections aren't consistent. IE, when they come to check them, the network may not be available, so, although they can see the new messages' headers, they can't see the body. Even if they do still have a network connection, they have to wait for the body to download (the whole point of 'push' is that you don't have to wait).
If you do it 'my way' it'd bring the time to approximately the same as the iPhone, IMO.
Max.
macwhu wrote:also bluetooth headphones, who ACTUALLY uses them to be an issue. as they are mostly terrible at the moment.
Note the world "mostly". There are quite a few excellent A2DP headphones out there; for example, the Plantronics Pulsar 590A. I *really* recommend my related articles (and, for that matter, ALL of my articles) I've posted to the S60 forum (and, mostly, the N95 subforum) here; for example,
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum//forum/thread/72962/
All in all, A2DP now is a VERY good alternative to wired headphones - without any quality degradation.
slitchfield wrote:Some replies(!)@sdeetz:"the iphone picked up my exact position and was ready to start tracking my walking a full 60 seconds before the N95 was. And it is very "
Your N95 can't have the latest firmware then, my N95 gets a GPS lock in under 10 seconds a lot of the time, and always under 20. And my comparison already credited the iPhone as having a fast lock, I believe.
I agree. My E90 just locked on in somewhat less than 30 seconds and I'm *inside*.
I recall that it used to take minutes (sometimes *many*) to lock on before I applied the recent firmware upgrade. I suspect the N95-8GB is a similar speed before/after.
Steve,
Isn't the Samsung Omnia worth including in this comparison? 😊
Bassey wrote: One, as you mention, the N95 8GB has been out a while and had several firmware updates since it's release. The other two are brand new. Lets not forget the original N95 was almost unusable for certain things. It took a good couple of updates for it to become as good as it is
I don't get this point. Is it relevant what the device was like when it first came out? Surely what is relevant is what it's like *now*.
Perhaps you could expand on the point you were trying to make.
Thanks.
Max.
bertolt wrote:Steve,
Isn't the Samsung Omnia worth including in this comparison? 😊
It might be but I seriously doubt it'd change the outcome much. (Besides, it doesn't have a built-in YouTube Player, unlike th Diamond.) Prolly only with the somewhat bigger on-screen keyboard (because of the slightly larger screen of the Omnia) that there would be a bit more favorable scores.
And, of course, the camera, which is on par with that of the N95 - unlike that of the Diamond.
davidmaxwaterma wrote:I don't get this point. Is it relevant what the device was like when it first came out? Surely what is relevant is what it's like *now*.Perhaps you could expand on the point you were trying to make.
Thanks.
Max.
The issues Steve listed can't really be fixed with minor bugfixes, only with major OS revision upgrades (for example, with the scmallscreen & touch-friendly Windows Mobile 7 to be released early next year).
However, it isn't even known if any new OS versions are released for the Diamond / iPhone.
slitchfield wrote:>>I cant believe you put the N95 above the iPod touch/iPhone for music transfer. c'mon itunes/iTMS is 1000xmore seemless than WMP/nokia music store/pc suite.Nope, I disagree. Windows Media Player integration with modern S60 handsets is superb and seamless. And faster than iTunes. iTunes only starts winning once you factor in people wanting to BUY DRM-ed music online.
Steve
I use OS X with nokia n95 - the integration is beta at best. In fact for music/video upload i just take out the memory card and copy it across manually. (just as well i dont have an 8gb) its just easier.
and of course n95 and cover art is a random beast at best.
at least the experience of iPhone is equal for windows / mac users. and they dont have to use WMP - which is bloody terrible - i know i used it for some time.
the music and video usage on the iPhone blows the n95 out of the water.
its not like i don't generally agree over all - i'm just being picky
i've gone back to n95 after a year of hacked iPhone useage.
because my main no1 use is the camera. and iPhone fails big time in that dept.
i found myself carrying two phones all the time so i would have a decent camera.
i would say the results stand in order - but theres alot of people that wouldn't give a fig as the iPhone is the only phone for them.
jdushe wrote:You can turn off Touchflow 3D on the HTC, it is just a homescreen plugin.
can and should - though to be fair, its being sold on the back of touchflo 3D
i had a diamond for 2 days, before it went on ebay - its terrible.
though in the winter it will be useful for warming your hands/house/small south american country.
boy it ran hot.
I think the following are real issues with the iPhone for me:
1. No A2DP
2. No HID BT profiles
3. No Profile app
4. No file system
5. No Exchange Sync for To Dos & Notes
6. No inherent ability to edit Office documents (like many E90 users, Office doc editting is actually very useful)
And finally, the iPhone is very difficult to use one-handed.
The point is the iPhone is a media content playing & viewing device, it is not a device for creating content, unlike many WM & Symbian Smartphones. So I see a lot of people carrying 2 devices, a good Nokia/SE Smatphone and an iPhone!
davidmaxwaterma wrote:I don't get this point. Is it relevant what the device was like when it first came out? Surely what is relevant is what it's like *now*.Perhaps you could expand on the point you were trying to make.
Hi Max. Fair point. No, it doesn't matter to someone in the market for an N95 now if the N95 used to suffer from problems that have since been fixed. However, someone in the marker for a smartphone should be aware that;
a) early firmwares are usually not great (and that goes for most manufacturers)
b) some manufacturers have a better record than others of releasing fixes in a timely manner.
Also, Steve said he went to great lengths to make the comparison as fair as possible. Whilst I'm sure this is true, it wouldn't come as a great surprise to many that a device that has been out for quite some time and is based on a very mature operating system is quicker and more stable than two devices released 10 days ago and based brand new or only recently updated OS's.
I'm not saying it wasn't a fair test, I'm just pointing out that the products aren't exactly at the same stages of their development life-cycle (something I believe Steve has written about before) and that this may be worth keeping in mind. The N95 is at it's peak and about to be replaced. The iPhone and Diamond are in their infancy and "could" improve in the short-medium term.
You may regard either of those positions as an advantage/disadvantage, dependant on your point of view 😊
Good points - I'll be sure to schedule another test in 6 months time! Probably iPhone 3G vs Nokia N96 vs HTC Touch Diamond Pro (or whatever it's called), of which the N96 will be the least mature 8-)
slitchfield wrote:Good points - I'll be sure to schedule another test in 6 months time! Probably iPhone 3G vs Nokia N96 vs HTC Touch Diamond Pro (or whatever it's called), of which the N96 will be the least mature 8-)
Not if the Raphael/Diamond Pro (or whatever) keeps being delayed it won't! Still some serious issues with that keyboard from what I hear. And, in any case, have you SEEN the size of that thing? I've seen slimmer desktop PC's! :0
Excellent, balanced, and objective, if I may say so, Steve. To extend, I'd like to take the tests in different directions; as you've pointed-out yourself, there is no one 'perfect' phone because everybody has different requirements. My own suggestions for taking the tests in different directions:
- Receive an MS Word doc in email, proof read it, make some corrections, add, "The quick, brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" at the bottom, and email it back. (QWERTY-less handsets are allowed to use bluetooth keyboards, but the time taken to set them up must be added to the results.)
- Make a recurring calendar entry, using only the out-of-the-box calendar, for an event that occurs on the fourth Tuesday of every month.
- Repeat all tests one-handed.
- Walk down any UK high street with the handset in your jeans pocket without getting any funny looks.
- Find an application for a particular obscure task of your choosing, download it, install it, pay for it.
- Return from a day out, walk into the living room, and show the rest of the family all the photos and video you've taken on either the TV or computer monitor, using whatever is quickest and easiest (bluetooth, cable, streaming, etc)
ROFL. I think I can see where you're going with that task list!!!!!!!!!!!
steve,
it's very easy to run through a comparison test as the owner and day to day user of one of those handsets and perform tasks easily which on the other devices you struggle with. this is familiarity. luckily I am the owner of both an n95 and a touch diamond and am easily able to compare some of the tasks you underwent.
basing the capability of a browser on how quickly it allows you to fetch a train time doesn't really strike me as a thorough test. the fact is that despite their lack of flash lite both the Iphone and touch diamond browsers allow access to the internet in a much more fulfilling way than the n95 does. for quick access to information over the net I'd probably go with my n95. I think for many people the difference in quality between the full web on the diamond/iphone and the n95 is as crucial as a good camera.
with regard to email, I use googlemail and have no problems with either my n95 or my diamond. both phones offer thumbpad t9 options although the diamond has the nice option of a qwerty thumbpad for more drawn out text input. I've never had to use the stylus on the diamond to reply to a text or email and am perfectly capable of submitting posts such as this one using the diamond on screen keyboard - hell I even have an enter key so I can do paragraphs, something impossible to achieve on the n95.
the diamond is not perfect, but it's very usable as a phone, has a superb bropwser and fits very snugly in the pocket. a2dp is flawless and email (for me at least) has never been a problem.
I love all these devices, but I do love my diamond the most at the minute...maybe you have a different one to me steve!
jdushe wrote:You can turn off Touchflow 3D on the HTC, it is just a homescreen plugin.
Then instead of being called Touch Diamond it should be called "Tap with the Stylus" Diamond.
macwhu wrote:- the video test was unfair and skews the results. it's like adding in touch screen sensitivity as a test.
No, it's not. While shooting a video is a regularly used feature in phones, the touch screen in the Touch Diamond and the iPhone are ways to enter data in the device, the same as the keypad on the N95.
Adding touch screen sensitivity is a ridiculous suggestion even as an example. And, as we're talking nonsense, I could also add the following tests:
- Quality of the physical keypad (N95: 20 / iPhone: 0 / Touch: 0).
- Quality of the stylus (N95: 0 / iPhone: 0 / Touch: 20).
lynchem wrote:I generally use my phone for... er.... making phone calls ! I had a shoot out with my iPhone wielding friend and gunned him down easy with my N82.Another category you should have included is "Fitting the phone in your pocket alongside your wallet". 😊
n82 is an uber fatso brick compared to the iphone. 17.3mm vs 12.3
thats a third thicker!! in other dimensions they are similar
except the iphone is wider by 12mm
n82 camera is SWEEEEEET though. its 'rice' keys ruin it for me.
* Weight: 114 g
* Length: 112 mm
* Width: 50.2 mm
* Thickness (max): 17.3 mm
Size and weight1
Height: 4.5 inches (115.5 mm)
Width: 2.4 inches (62.1 mm)
Depth: 0.48 inch (12.3 mm)
Weight: 4.7 ounces (133 grams)