HW acceleration CAN help in better quality video output, thats a fact. I don;t know in which degree the omap is being used in the n95. I had a winmo xda flame with nvidia goforce GPU, the drivers were never complete untill recently a hacker managed to make a movieplayer which used the GPU results: better bitrate better fps less cpu usage so less battery usage.
3d hardware isn;t the future anymore it is now simple as that and leaving it out is bad for a company as nokia.
Even worse using a older CPU ( n96 ) is a joke!! look a this statement from the coder of the quake series on symbian:
lol, all the hard work for nothing. what's so different between the 95 and 96 ?
the CPU, n96 uses older armv5 cpu, which does not allow unaligned access etc. ( symbian freak forum )
Steve, any thoughts on my comment (apologies if someone else has already commented - at work and did not have time to read the full, rich thread yet)?
Unregistered wrote:lol, all the hard work for nothing. what's so different between the 95 and 96 ? the CPU, n96 uses older armv5 cpu, which does not allow unaligned access etc. ( symbian freak forum )
Yes, not allowing unaligned access causes problems for people not used to making applications portable across architectures (and if the Quake source was anything like the Doom source, it's far from portable as standard!). The Sparc range of processors don't allow unaligned access either, which caught me out once. You can always work around it, but it might be inefficient (simplest and least efficient case is just to copy the unaligned data to an aligned variable).
Unregistered wrote:Realplayer is used for video playback, and doesn't really get any improvement whatsoever from the hardware in question.
Are you sure? I don't know about Realplayer in particular, but many decompression algorithms can be improved with hardware support. Colourspace conversion is a simple example (many codecs use a YUV colourspace, and hardware can efficiently convert this to an RGB format). Scaling of video, video overlays and BLITting are other examples. Not all of these are 3D related, but a graphics unit will usually support them.
beatmag wrote:N97 needs 3D HW!!!!!!!!. you have 3-6 months to put it in Nokia. please start the design and rework the PCB again.....
Won't the N97 have 3D hardware? I don't know, just asking. The demo video here looks very smooth, although I suppose it's probably pre-rendered and not indicative of the real device. It looks nothing like the real-world videos that I've seen!
I've been playing around the Ferragi GT challenge the HD edition on my N95!!Amazing graphics equal to the PS1 Gran Turismo games! Can anyone say if it uses 3D HW? Beacuse it has some amazing 3d graphs and all run so smooth!
Unregistered wrote:I've been playing around the Ferragi GT challenge the HD edition on my N95!!Amazing graphics equal to the PS1 Gran Turismo games! Can anyone say if it uses 3D HW? Beacuse it has some amazing 3d graphs and all run so smooth!
lol NO look at the iphone version it uses opengles and runs smoother and looks like a psp game
Thanks your review Steve.
But seriously, these facts are known for ages.
Running benchmark proggie on phone...so any practical implications?
I would like to apologize my sort of critical point of view. You are generating just mass hysteria. There are plenty of gaming machines out of there. Like PC, MAC, Playstation etc.
Pretty old data to read.
I have "upgraded" (and I genuinely believe that it is that!) from an N95 to an N85, and can't see what all the fuss is about 😉
I've not noticed anything that is slower on the N85, yet, although to be honest I don't play a massive amount of games.
If Nokia allowed developers to use the 3D chip for N-Gage games, i'd be more inclind to agree, but to be best knowledge they don't!
Being an s60 user since the 6600, it pains me to say that I don't see any nokia device that I would like to upgrade to in the near future. I really liked the N97 when I first saw it but without the graphics hardware, its going to turn out to be a remake of the old 7710.
Being in the industry that's so dynamic, one mistake like this can make Nokia fall flat on its face. Please Nokia do something sensible or this N82 may turn out to be my last S60.
I agree with the article, 3d hw should be put back into new s60v3 / v5 phones so they can compete against future iPhone's and such
Maybe its not such a huge, intentional direction change verses just the fact that Nokia is moving away from its TI dependency. After the 2420, I don't see Nokia doing anything with OMAP3 processors. Maybe it is the cost, maybe Nokia prefers its own single core solutions, but without TI, there really isn't a ready solution for HW accelerated Open GL, is there? Also, ST Microelectronics, which is what powers N96, I think, isn't even an ARM11, its a lower performing ARM9, isn't it?
I work programming phones. In my company we develop for Symbian, Windows Mobile and Java. We also have done some experimental work for the iPhone.
Recently we get a 5800 and someone from another department asked as to see it. When he saw the pathetic performance of the games installed he said that the phone was too slow.
We (www navento com if you are curious) make GPS tracking software and hardware and have a viewer application. It's highly graphical and runs reasonably smooth in all the S60 phones except the 5800. It has a very big screen and the processor can not cope with it.
We have developed an OpenGL ES version (currently is not available to the public) and it would great been able to use it in the 5800. I think that Nokia does not understand the wow effect that the iPhone has thanks to its graphical power.
Carlos
Of all the applications mentioned in the article, only Quake and perhaps Global Race use 3D acceleration.
Mobitubia benefitting from OpenGL? WTF?
The difference in performance from one phone to another is given only by processor speed and available memory.
Nokia's money making options:
(a) Built one phone with super powerful hardware and make only one or few good n-gage games that take advantage of that super powerful phone's hardware. These great games will not work on any other Nokia phones because they lack the super hardware.
(b) Built multiple devices with limited or not too costly hardware and make tons of n-gage games that don't require high end hardware. Every phone can play all n-gage games.
Apples money making option:
(a) One device; either games will work or will not.
Point:
Nokia is not an "apple" and can not be compared to Apple.
Apple is a sniper riffle, an niche aimed one market hit.
Nokia is a gatling gun, it has enough bullets to hit parts of all markets.
Don't compare Apple to Nokia; they are different.
Java games works in every phone regardless of hardware and they sell the most. The whole point of "One" made in such a way that 3D chips are not require is exactly what Nokia is aiming at - all phones can play N-Gage; thou I still wonder why they have not open the N-gage platform to all possible handsets.
I normally wouldn't join in just to repeat what everyone else is saying, but since someone at Nokia probably keeps up with this site, more comments can't hurt.
I currently own an e61, and I tend to recommend an e or n-series phone to anyone who asks me what to buy. (It still amazes me how many people are impressed just with the appearance of this phone, 2+ years after release. I always thought it look rather conservative...)
I was planning to upgrade to a 5800 or n97 next year. One reason (of many) to upgrade was for games. I planned to use n-gage, sure, but also other 3rd party games (quake, etc.). I don't want to buy an iphone because I don't want to have to hack my own phone after every update just to be able to install the programs I want. Accelerated graphics is absolutely a deal-breaker for me. Standards-compliant graphics hardware means I can have a rich gaming and multimedia experience outside of the ovi/ngage walled garden. And that means that I could be comfortable paying $700+USD at launch for a n97, because I know that I will be able to do what I want with the phone even if nokia's walled garden disappoints, or if they decide to pull the plug again.
Nokia is probably correct in assuming that 95% of its users will not notice the absence of 3d. But the power users and early adopters who will have a voice magnitudes larger than their(our) size. We pay extravagant prices to buy these phones at launch, we show then to friends and recommend them to strangers, we create websites devoted to them, and our interest in them keeps websites like this humming. To alienate the fans is to ultimately cannibalize mainstream sales 6-18 months down the line. To abuse an already overused buzzword, 5% of Nokia's customers are responsible for generating about 50% of Nokia's mindshare.
If my phone breaks today, I might buy an iPhone/etc. tomorrow. I would not have said that yesterday. If many more people like me say that tomorrow, then Nokia may have a problem.
I want to remind everyone....
the classic title Quake 3, has been ported to symbian.
This port really shows the possibilities of 3d HW.
Nokia once again, you shot yourself in the foot. Ngage no 3d HW?....are you serious?
http://www.symbian-freak.com/downloads/freeware/cat_s60_3rd/descriptions/games/quake_III_for_s60_phones.htm
Quake 3 on n95 8gb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4qiHFUWq5Y
Look nokia, look what you have done to your gaming handsets, crippled.
While you are reading this Nokia, also make better gaming buttons.....
N95 << had shocking media buttons,
N95 8Gb << had better buttons but still weren't good for gaming
N81 << well no 3d HW there.... buttons weren't that great i heard
N85 <<.......not sure. dont think the buttons are good for gaming either.
you ask me what are good gaming buttons? well , look at your gaming consoles...
DS, or PSP.. those buttons are better for fast paced action...
It would be bad if nokia tried to announce a special ngage handset, because all their hard work of trying to bring gaming to the masses has just gone directly to one specialised phone which is not the way to do it.
uKER wrote:Of all the applications mentioned in the article, only Quake and perhaps Global Race use 3D acceleration.
Mobitubia benefitting from OpenGL? WTF?
The difference in performance from one phone to another is given only by processor speed and available memory.
maybe the 2420 has better grunt.... than the new 369mhz cpus. but the only reason why you think this article is crap is because lack of software making use of the 3d.
as many of us have mentioned earlier..... if nokia had 3d HW in all their n series phones , this wouldn't happen. developers can focus on HW 3d. knowning that there is a large install base. now nokia crippled the API, and market. developers are turning to iphone due to its sheer unique market.
knowning that n97 does not have 3d from the product manager, we know it might be too late for nokia to change things. will they surprise us ? i doubt it. we all asked for 3d during the n96 product release did we get it?.....they all dodged the question at the time, and when n96 came out, it was clocked even slower because they placed a smaller battery in it....... thinking that it will do..... wrong wrong and wrong.
you all might ask , why do i and a few others insist on 3d hardware? .....why because every other phone manufacturer is starting to use them..... and to save a few bucks nokia has stopped using it.
the other thing with N97 is the 3.6mpbs hsdpa support. that is shocking for a flagship in 2009.
Samsung = 3d.
Sony = 3d. << hmmm some sites say yes some sites say no.
htc = 3d << saw COD2 on this, its WOW.
apple =3d.
nokia = save a few bucks
and only nokia has a specialised gaming ....ie ngage.
nokia is the master of rehashes. and they might keep rehashing non 3D hw nseries phones. :icon13::icon13:😡:frown:
So everyone in this place wants 3d HW in the next gen Nokia N Series.
But as many pointed out how many people are actually using them. Yes, games definitely get a boast, but how many games are taking the advantage.
The next gen Nokia's are coming out with S60 3rd Ed FP2 or 5th Ed. Maybe Nokia tweaked the software to give better frame-rates or performance than the previous Ed's. come on how many iPhone users know about hardware acceleration or made their purchase based on that reason. As far I can see many people buy their phones based on what features they have without giving much reason to whether they will use it or not. I have seen many people realize that their phone has so and so feature after using the phone for a good year. A geek friend of mine owns a Nokia N82 but hadn't used many a feature until pointed out, he was a nerdy fella and think about all those non-geeks.
Well for Nokia its a balancing act, to provide features and at the same time achieve the price point to make a few bucks.
P.S. I'm buying a Nokia 5800XM and not the useless iPhone with Hardware Acceleration. Cheers.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omap
OMAP2430 - 330 MHz ARM1136 + PowerVR MBX lite 2D/3D Graphics Accelerator + IVA2
OMAP2420 - 330 MHz ARM11 + 220 MHz C55x DSP + PowerVR MBX 2D/3D Graphics Accelerator + IVA (ARM7TDMI+iMX+VLC+SEQ)
The 2430 chip is a cut down "Lite" version of the PowerVR in comparison to the 2420.
In all seriousness - I think Nokia has had quite a few bashings already about their lack of 3D games on the Ngage as such - so they have put out examples to "wow" the people (like ONE - whereby the graphics are definitely impressive for non-accelerated).
The whole N96 idea simply is unbelievable - how can you cut back on specifications and use inferior components and yet still make it the "next generation" of things?
uKER wrote:Of all the applications mentioned in the article, only Quake and perhaps Global Race use 3D acceleration.
"Perhaps"? You should consider checking your facts. It 100% uses acceleration. As does Crash Nitro Kart 3D, which I assume Steve meant. It works on non-accelerated handsets, but looks much better with acceleration. I don't know about all the other apps.
Polarbit have now released what looks like a sequel to Global Race on the iPhone that includes multiplayer support too 😞
@uker: "Mobitubia benefitting from OpenGL? WTF?
The difference in performance from one phone to another is given only by processor speed and available memory."
No. The difference is very plain. On the N82 and N95, Mobitubia allows full, smooth playback WHILE DOWNLOADING, whereas on devices like the N79, it can't even get near to playing the videos at the same time. Both devices have similar core processors and RAM.
slitchfield wrote:@uker: "Mobitubia benefitting from OpenGL? WTF?
The difference in performance from one phone to another is given only by processor speed and available memory."No. The difference is very plain. On the N82 and N95, Mobitubia allows full, smooth playback WHILE DOWNLOADING, whereas on devices like the N79, it can't even get near to playing the videos at the same time. Both devices have similar core processors and RAM.
must be the dual core of the n95 etc. ie the baseband is driven off another chip. whereas the single core solutions are purely what it is, single CORE. thats my theory anyway.
bad nokia, bad nokia. 😡
Interesting theory. Anyone know if Wi-Fi comms are handled by the baseband processor? If they are, then I guess this *might* at least explain the Mobitubia performance....
uKER wrote:Of all the applications mentioned in the article, only Quake and perhaps Global Race use 3D acceleration.
Mobitubia benefitting from OpenGL? WTF?
The difference in performance from one phone to another is given only by processor speed and available memory.
Have you seen Global Race in a 5800 and in a E90(for the big screen)? The difference is impressive. In the 5800 is awful and in the E90 is quite nice, all thanks to the 3D HW.
You can also do a GUI with the graphic accelerator (I've done it, I had a post before about it) that it's much more smoother and consumes less battery.
Suprising how no one here seems to be interested in discussing the "why" deeper.
The "why" of which aspect?
The "why" of having graphics acceleration in phones?
The "why" of not having it?
The "why" of it being progressive?
The "why" of it not being progressive?
The "why" of something else?
The why as in why Nokia has made this decision. As I said in my first comment, price is obviously one reason. But no one seem to be able to give a ball park of how much that is. Second, nobody seems to have any other insight to possible other reasons, such as portfolio strategy, supplier relations and contracts, logistical reasons, relative position vis a vis competition etc.
Those "why"s is only something that can be speculated here. What the real "why"s really are is not something you'll get answers to here, I suspect.
Speculating can sometimes fun (it is like gossip), but not necessarily very useful nor factual.
I suddenly have this horrible feeling that Nokia are going to roll over and hand the N-Series niche to the Cult of the Fruit:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/18/apple_buys_into_imagination_technologies/
I don't think this question needs any discussion. The answer is pretty simple: yes, we do need 3D acceleration.
Just look at the games iPhone enjoys, the overall quality of the better titles and you will know why. Now the iPhone has become by far the best mobile phone gaming platform, among other things, "thanks" to Nokia's not pushing 3D acceleration even more (along with something - at least compared to third party software resellers like Handango - really appealing like the AppStore).
bchliu wrote:From Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omap
OMAP2430 - 330 MHz ARM1136 + PowerVR MBX lite 2D/3D Graphics Accelerator + IVA2
OMAP2420 - 330 MHz ARM11 + 220 MHz C55x DSP + PowerVR MBX 2D/3D Graphics Accelerator + IVA (ARM7TDMI+iMX+VLC+SEQ)
The 2430 chip is a cut down "Lite" version of the PowerVR in comparison to the 2420.
In all seriousness - I think Nokia has had quite a few bashings already about their lack of 3D games on the Ngage as such - so they have put out examples to "wow" the people (like ONE - whereby the graphics are definitely impressive for non-accelerated).
The whole N96 idea simply is unbelievable - how can you cut back on specifications and use inferior components and yet still make it the "next generation" of things?
BTW, speaking of the "outdated" OMAP architecture,
1, Nokia could indeed look at the newer OMAP architectures OR
2, could take a look at Samsung's new chipsets; for example, the 6400 (of which a brother is used in the iPhone). (See my chipset-related articles if interested.) I know switching to a brand new chipset would possible require a complete PCB rework but, if the OMAP architecture is so bad (I don't think so), can be a nice step to take.
Remember the PowerPC -> Intel transition? Apple have also switched to anohther platform when they started to find the old incapable.