In All About Symbian Insight 65 (AAS Podcast 123) we welcome Ewan back from the USA and tell him about a few additions to the AAS team. We round up some of this week's news including Yahoo Mobile Home, Nokia Messaging 1.1, Nokia Point and Find Beta, Real Football for N-Gage, Nokia E71x and more. You can listen to AAS Insight 64 here or, if you wish to subscribe, here's the RSS feed.
Read on in the full article.
does the E71x not have FP2...:con?
I'm unable to play the media for some reason, just hangs.😞
I will keep trying.
Still not playing.
Yay..!! Its working now, tuned in now 😊
Great podcast guys.
One line struck me from Ewan: "we're on the edge of a precipice".
I think you are right, but not in a good way.
IMHO, that bloody iPhone is gaining traction, more and more every day, at the expense of Nokia/S60/Symbian. In every area, even when you strip away all the Apple hype and fanboy BS, it is undeniable that Nokia (along with every other mobile manufacturer) are playing catch up, launching their own Apps stores and touch screen devices to emulate the iPhone experience (yup, I said it, nod to Rafe).
You paint the N97 and the Ovi Store as the White Knight to stop the Apple onslaught, with the precipice being Nokia retaking the mantle? I just don't see it.
Let's assume that the N97 is the widget machine that today's Facebook using, Flickr twitching, Twitter flittering and Google-everythingservice fully functioning multimedia node wants in their pocket. Are these people going to give a flying stuff about Ovi? Really? Never mind those that are just going to say 'Ovi, what's that?' as they scratch their heads and laugh as Dan Twitters that he's just reached level 300 on Mob Wars.
Nokia need to do something out-bloody-standing to recapture the high ground. Forget tinkering with NGage and hoping the same fate doesn't befall the Ovi Store. Forget all this 'it'll pick up when there are more devices with it imbedded out there'. NGage stinks because no-one is supporting it and it's **** to use, end of.
And by god, take an N97, dump the keyboard, half the storage, give it a capacitive screen and a properly optimised version 5 OS and call it the N100. Widget it up to the hilt with shortcuts and apps for all the latest social networking sites, work with these sites instead of your own Ovi apps, throw in Comes with Music and who knows?
So refreshing to have Ewan back who tells it as it is and pulls no punches where Rafe sits on his fence and is too scared to say a bad word about Nokia/S60/Symbian/N-gage/Ovi...
The above comments are so true about Nokia handsets at the moment, so boring & predictable, think everybody is hoping that the N97 turns out to be a belter and knocks apple for six...
hargs48 wrote:does the E71x not have FP2...:con?
Yes it does. The point was I thought it probably would not.
Unregistered wrote:So refreshing to have Ewan back who tells it as it is and pulls no punches where Rafe sits on his fence and is too scared to say a bad word about Nokia/S60/Symbian/N-gage/Ovi...
The above comments are so true about Nokia handsets at the moment, so boring & predictable, think everybody is hoping that the N97 turns out to be a belter and knocks apple for six...
I shall try to do less fence sitting in the future. However all have difference perspectives and that's part of the strength of doing a group podcast.
morpheus2702 wrote:IMHO, that bloody iPhone is gaining traction, more and more every day, at the expense of Nokia/S60/Symbian. In every area, even when you strip away all the Apple hype and fanboy BS, it is undeniable that Nokia (along with every other mobile manufacturer) are playing catch up, launching their own Apps stores and touch screen devices to emulate the iPhone experience (yup, I said it, nod to Rafe).You paint the N97 and the Ovi Store as the White Knight to stop the Apple onslaught, with the precipice being Nokia retaking the mantle? I just don't see it.
Let's assume that the N97 is the widget machine that today's Facebook using, Flickr twitching, Twitter flittering and Google-everythingservice fully functioning multimedia node wants in their pocket. Are these people going to give a flying stuff about Ovi? Really? Never mind those that are just going to say 'Ovi, what's that?' as they scratch their heads and laugh as Dan Twitters that he's just reached level 300 on Mob Wars.
Nokia need to do something out-bloody-standing to recapture the high ground. Forget tinkering with NGage and hoping the same fate doesn't befall the Ovi Store. Forget all this 'it'll pick up when there are more devices with it imbedded out there'. NGage stinks because no-one is supporting it and it's **** to use, end of.
And by god, take an N97, dump the keyboard, half the storage, give it a capacitive screen and a properly optimised version 5 OS and call it the N100. Widget it up to the hilt with shortcuts and apps for all the latest social networking sites, work with these sites instead of your own Ovi apps, throw in Comes with Music and who knows?
I can see where you are coming from (and agree with lots of it), but I would put in context. The iPhone / Magic / N97 / Touch Pro 2 etc etc are one part of the market (and even here there's quite a spread). It is the most visible one that gets most attention in the media. But it represents only one part of the mobile market. Nokia is plays all areas of mobile - not just one - this is its greatest advantage and greatest weakness at the same time.
It is fairly easy to set up a company to serve a single segment. Palm is about to do the same thing with the Pre. It is much harder to this on a wider scale. The lesson on the Mac vs PC can provide some historical food for thought. That said I do think Nokia need to do more in this space to get the Twitter loving, Facebook using, iPhone lusting elite. BUT these people are an elite.
You say people will ask Ovi - what's that... yes fair point (but same with MobileMe)... but this can change in time. What about asking about Nokia as brand - it is in more consumers hand than any other. The tendency to ignore or write off Nokia (not you, just generally) is lunacy.
The iPhone has been a great success. It has taught the industry a lot. The question is who is best positioned to apply those lessons more generally? Not for the 50 million, but for the 1 billion.
At the high end of the market Nokia faces more competition than anywhere else. However if you look lower down the market it has very little competition in places and look at Nokia emerging markets like India. I tend to to take an over reaching view which tends to diminish the importance placed on the high end by most commentators.
So yes... context, context, context... Looking at mobile through high-end only eye is like looking at the world with one eye - you'll never be able to get depth perception right.
fair comment Rafe. Yes, Nokia do serve a great deal many markets than any other manufacturer and its a good thing that they are doing well in the emerging markets such as India. All good stuff, but to me, here, sat playing with my phone, I unashamedly say I don't give two hoots about any of that.
I bought my current phone, an N95 8Gb, because at the time and like Wolverine, it was the best at what it does.. And I joined AAS because as a long time Smartphone fan, I like to know about my tech.
I believed that the N series were the best that Nokia offered, and Symbian was the accompaniment to that offering? So Ok S60 may have mutated down the Nokia food chain, but I still expect the N series to be the best.
I cannot attest to the success of MobileMe, but I gather it's not all that. We all know how well the iPhone app store has done hence manufacturers emulating it.
But if Nokia is going to make a success of the Ovi store, stand up and stop skirting around the issue -as a forerunner, Ngage has been an absolute pigs ear.
Go on Rafe, stand on a chair and shout it - 'Ngage sucks'. Type it in big bold letters, let the world know. All this nonsense about it being imbedded on phones out of the box and the numbers will rise - no they haven't, people have registered but not even Nokia are giving away who's actually bought anything. And no more with poor old N73 and N93 users not getting it - two weeks seemingly blanket coverage makes me question 'context'!
I still don't get the need for Ovi as a brand. What's wrong with 'Nokia Something'? Apple have the sicophants that would use a service called Turd Sandwich. And in the States they have the fanbase and clout to publicise it. Nokia do not, not in the States and let's face it, not to any meaningful degree anywhere else - unless it is absolutely top notch as a product. Which is just what the Ovi Store will have to be.
Unregistered wrote:So refreshing to have Ewan back who tells it as it is and pulls no punches where Rafe sits on his fence and is too scared to say a bad word about Nokia/S60/Symbian/N-gage/Ovi...
Okay can we stop it with the �Ewan's back� comments. One of the reasons (in my mind) that the All About Symbian Insight podcasts are so vital is that there are three people, all with extensive knowledge of the mobile scene (albeit in differing areas) contributing to the topics of the week in the podcast. Each of us not only has specific knowledge areas, but we each take on specific roles in the podcast as well
As well as being entertaining, we also strive to be informative and educational (Hmmm where have I heard that triumvirate before). That means that we have Rafe who can do the in-depth analyst viewpoint; we have Steve with a huge historical bank of knowledge he can tap into; and yes we have the court jester in myself (although a jester who's got some history with the platform, with developers, and with start-up culture). If you take one of us out the equation, then the podcast can become a touch unbalanced (eg myself away at SXSW, Rafe at Moble World Congress, etc).
I always joke that the Insight is the online equivalent of Radio 4, and while it seems the more vocal of you on the forums want a Radio 1 show, we get a huge amount of feedback in person at conferences, events and via private mails that love the depth we get into, and also the fact that it does stay entertaining at the same time. That's a tough balance to achieve and maintain, but we will, as always, continue to do our best, and we always love your feedback in whatever form.
morpheus2702 - oh yes spot on if you're considering it as a consumer. For example, there's no doubt touch, in general, caught Nokia by surprise. Touch is currently very hot, but its not for everyone (speaking generally it is a smll part of the market. In the podcasts (and my thinking generally) I tend to be the overview or 'industry/analyst' voice. Ewan and Steve tend to be more consumer voice (not always, just generalising).
I'm interested you use the term 'best' as I kind of think that makes the point. Best for you. We said many times of the podcast that the 'equation of value' or 'equation of best-ness' is different for everyone and is contains multiple complex factors. I would never claim Nokia or Symbian is the best option for everyone. I do think it has broader appeal than any other platform, but for some RIM or Apple or Windows Mobile devices will be a better option. And I hope that comes across.
and just a brief reply about N-Gage.
I think the issue is not with the system (the N-Gage client), but the content (games) that goes with it. Actually I think the client is a good example of how to do things right (on device game downloads and easy discovery / install / start / online activities). It is easy to use - far more so that side loading a side loading a sis file.
But the games do not look get next to some of the available iPhone games. Why? Lower hardware requirements and lack of developer support (and there are reasons to blame Nokia for this). Of course you can also argue that its not a fair comparison.
Ultimately I think the issue with N-Gage is one that Nokia is generally facing. How does is persuade its consumers, who buy Nokia for hardware reasons, to use its services?
With all that said I would also say that N-Gage, thus far, has failed to meet expectations. Does it suck? That's depends on the context. Against iPhone - yes? Against Java games on operator portals - no. Happy now!? 😊
Finally - thanks for commenting (and replying), it is the conversation that does most to inform my thinking.
fair comment Rafe. Yes, Nokia do serve a great deal many markets than any other manufacturer and its a good thing that they are doing well in the emerging markets such as India. All good stuff, but to me, here, sat playing with my phone, I unashamedly say I don't give two hoots about any of that.
Well, Nokia HAVE to give two hoots because India and China (both emerging economies) are their two largest customers, and they're growing larger all the time. In fact I believe most of Nokia's sales and profits come from developing countries. These poorer countries aren't fringe markets, they're right at the heart of the mobile world.
That's probably part of the reason Nokia's response to the iPhone was the 5800, which has pretty much the same features but for half the price. That approach is ideal for selling to a global mass market, and apparently it's broken sale records for touchscreen smartphones in India.
But to be honest, comparing Apple to Nokia is IMHO a bit of a mistake because they're not really going after the same customers. It would be a bit like comparing Rolls Royce to Toyota, both successful in their own ways but VERY different companies with different customer bases. Apple's strongest sales are in America, yet America has always been a traditional weakspot for Nokia, so it's not like Apple is poaching Nokia customers.
At the end of the day the average phone people actually buy costs about 70 to 80 euros SIM-free, whereas the iPhone, N97 and the like all cost about 600 euros SIM-free. High end smartphones are very expensive toys rather than mass market products, and in the grand scheme of things their rather small sales don't mean a huge amount to the industry as a whole.
The iPhone's odds of dominating the phone marketplace in its current form are about the same as Rolls Royce's of dominating the car industry. However much people might like the product, the reality is that most people simply cannot afford it and will never buy it. Apple could bring out a cheaper model, but that would probably mean ditching the expensive capacitive multitouch screen, which would mean an interface redesign, and would also mean incompatibility with current iPhone apps... it would be a can of worms really. I suspect Apple will concentrate on their expensive niche, as they have done with computers and music players.
IMHO it's the very cheapest phones where the exciting stuff will happen, because far more people actually buy them and use them:
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/Have_you_seen_what_budget_phones_can_do_now.php
I still don't get the need for Ovi as a brand. What's wrong with 'Nokia Something'?
I would guess three reasons:
1) Nokia want to leave open the possibility of offering their online services on non-Nokia hardware, and don't want to embarass other manufacturers. For example it might be a bit humiliating for Samsung to have Nokia-branded apps on their phones as Nokia is their rival, but Ovi-branded apps wouldn't be so bad as it's a more neutral name.
2) Nokia want to avoid accusations of monopolistic behaviour. They have had something like 35 - 40% of the phone market for several years now, far more than any other company, and if they start pushing Nokia-branded services on Nokia-branded phones that might get the attention of anti-monopoly legislators. Nokia pushing Ovi services looks less blatant, though obviously it's not commercially any different.
3) They want to emphasise that you don't need Nokia hardware in order to use Nokia online services. Most people know the Nokia brand as a phone maker, so they might assume anything with "nokia" on it must require a Nokia phone at some stage, which isn't the case with all Ovi services.
Rafe wrote:I'm interested you use the term 'best' as I kind of think that makes the point. Best for you. We said many times of the podcast that the 'equation of value' or 'equation of best-ness' is different for everyone and is contains multiple complex factors.
Umm 'best' in it's simplest, most schoolboy Top Trumps definition of the term - top of the range, the bees knees, the card that trumps all others, a Ferrari not a Ford, Galactus and not Moon Knight.
I understand that best is a subjective term and open to anyone's point of view but I hope that casts some illumination on what I general think of as 'best'.
Tzer2 wrote:But to be honest, comparing Apple to Nokia is IMHO a bit of a mistake because they're not really going after the same customers. It would be a bit like comparing Rolls Royce to Toyota.
OK and BMW owns Rolls Royce, so their product breadth is everything from a Mini to a Phantom. Toyota own Lexus and have an equally wide product range. Not the best analogy and ultimately it's irrelevant - Nokia and Apple both compete at the top end of the market. Whether Nokia produce one hundreds models or one, their offering has to be stand-alone good.
Tzer2 wrote:
Quote:
I still don't get the need for Ovi as a brand. What's wrong with 'Nokia Something'?I would guess three reasons:
1) Nokia want to leave open the possibility of offering their online services on non-Nokia hardware, and don't want to embarass other manufacturers. For example it might be a bit humiliating for Samsung to have Nokia-branded apps on their phones as Nokia is their rival, but Ovi-branded apps wouldn't be so bad as it's a more neutral name.
2) Nokia want to avoid accusations of monopolistic behaviour. They have had something like 35 - 40% of the phone market for several years now, far more than any other company, and if they start pushing Nokia-branded services on Nokia-branded phones that might get the attention of anti-monopoly legislators. Nokia pushing Ovi services looks less blatant, though obviously it's not commercially any different.
3) They want to emphasise that you don't need Nokia hardware in order to use Nokia online services. Most people know the Nokia brand as a phone maker, so they might assume anything with "nokia" on it must require a Nokia phone at some stage, which isn't the case with all Ovi services.
Oh come on, you are reaching. 3) seems to be the only halfway plausible reason for Ovi, but Nokia is plastered all over the site! Have a look at the frontpage to the forthcoming Ovi Store (http://store.ovi.com/?lang=en-GB)... hmmm, still looking very Nokia centric to me.