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Nokia Should Lock Up Ovi Store Developers In A Warehouse

24 replies · 4,594 views · Started 03 July 2009

Over on the Lazarus like Mobile Industry Review, the other Ewan in mobile has posted an ambitious yet simple plan to save the Ovi Store from itself. Simply put, Nokia would create three enclaves of coders (in London, San Francisco and Paris) and give them a monthly stipend of £3,500 and as much coca cola and pizza as they can eat. As long as they code one application every eight weeks, the proposed 100 developers per warehouse get to stay. Total cost? Roughly £2.34 per handset. That's quite high, but this is a fascinating idea that should be taken seriously.

Read on in the full article.

Do you SERIOUSLY think they would ANY developers with those work terms? I'm not talking about developers that can actually independently code useful applications, but I'm talking about ANY developer?! Developers make MUCH more money than that in the western countries, even with normal working terms.

It's not like a developer does good software just because you give them few cans of coca-cola... Working in a warehouse? Doing the first application for free? Come on guys have you ever had any contact to an actual software project. Working conditions and terms are much better even in China or India.

Not that this is written by AAS, but this must be the stupidest thing I've read here so far.

I am sorry but this is one of the daftest ideas I have ever read. Comment at the original site, if it is published.

Assuming its feasible to write apps in 2 man months which is pretty dubious for anything people might actually want to purchase:

i) contract rates in London are considerably more than the �160/day or so proposed - (�3500/22) even in these crap times. Living just outside London means it costs �16/day just to get to warehouse + back via our beloved public transport system.... (somewhat less by car even with congestion charge). What possible reason would there be to work for �160/day when its trivial to get twice that ?. Cant imagine Paris + SF are much cheaper.

ii) �7K as the budget for an app is laughable. If thats all it cost dont you think there might be a very significantly larger developer base ?.

iii) doing the programming is only a small part of the job. Who is doing all the testing, porting to multiple screen sizes/device types, graphics design, sales, marketing, promotion, IT support, etc etc - that easily doubles the cost.

iv) If you truly think all Apple developers are actually making any meaningful revenue from the AppStore you really are in cloud cuckoo land. $0.99 is totally unsustainable as a price point + were already seeing developers going under in that market. You need to produce something of greater value than $0.99, but that means bigger developement budgets....

While I would certainly question the method, the underlying assumption that Nokia should consider subsidising a number of third party applications is worthy of consideration. With competitions Nokia already does this - but I guess this is a question of scale.

This sort of idea has come up before. Work out what are the 50 leading apps on each competing platform and work with the developers to get them ported. Do it by subsidising the costs involved.

Ultimately though I think creating the correct climate for this to happen via market forces is probably the best approach (rather than direct subsidy, which is, in one sense, fixing things at the wrong end). In the Symbian world the rise of Ovi Store, Qt and web runtime is going to change things an awful lot over the next few years.

I'm less convinced by the innovation argument - yes a lot does come in from small developers. However innovation does not automatically equal commercial success. Amongst the most commercially successfully mobile application are those that provide travel information / weather forecasts etc (not especially innovative). Innovative apps are good for marketing (especially the web-tech audience) and clearly there's value in having 'cool' applications...

Also some contenxt / perspective is helpful. The reality is that for most consumers third party application availability is not the first thing they think of when buying a device (important - yes - and becoming more so, but importance is generally way over stated, especially in the media). I'm NOT saying there's no value, just that it has to be put into perspective. Thus expectations about mobile apps being the next gold rush need to be reined in a bit (in some cases).

I would also wonder about the value of one or two man teams doing this. Clearly some do a fantastic job, but I think that might be a case of 'the tip of the ice berg' argument. There's questions of scalability and sustainability if these teams enjoy big success (development is the easy bit, business is the hard bit).

This is very offensive to developers.

First, keep in mind a real developer (do not confuse them with some HTML web-site creator), has an IQ of over 110 where the average is 95, (s)he needs to know a LOT of things, not just a language, but thousands of functions from APIs and algorithms and how-to...

Because of the above, the software developer which is the software CREATOR (like in many iPhone applications, where the developer comes with the idea, design, code implementation and some testing) needs to have INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS for the produict produced, like in the movie or music industry. Basically, big companies just exploit developers because in the contract they stipulate the software AUTOR and CREATOR which is the developer, should not get any percentage from the sales. Books authors, music authors, they get percentage of the sales!

Second, I think the salary of 3500 pounds/month or 42000 pounds/year (or aprox 65000 US$/year) is an entry level salary, a junior programmer which by no means can finish an application in 2 months, other then if the guy is very, very good (genius) and the learning curve for him is just a plain instead of a steep hill.

Third, I heard this joke: "if the developers are not ready in time, we lock them in the room and throw some pizza under the door until they are ready"... this is very offensive, because developers are not rats, they are smart guys, smarter then the average, sometimes genius guys, and they are AUTHORS and CREATORS of the product, but because they are not allowed to have a UNION, they simply cannot ask for their INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS.

What do you think about this? Please give me some feedback, some comments... 😊

As a programmer in a third world country, I earn about �4,000 a month. Given that the living standards here are way below those for anyone in London or any of those cities, that salary is a joke.

@ architengi . Some critisism : take it or leave it .
Per definition : the averige IQ of the general population is pointed to 100 (sic) , per person .
Intelectual Challenge (example) :
When somebody with 90 needs 110� a day , a person with 110 should be able to live with 90� a day : since he is more intelligent ....
IQ 90 = 90� , IQ 110 = 110� is contradictory to this statement .....

😊 Regards jApi NL

wow everyone over reacts. So fine the salary numbers and details can be changed and negotiated. The point here is to get some serious competition into the symbian world via the ovi store. Does everyone not see how this can only be a good thing? Nokia NEEDS something to get quality apps going in their ovi sTORE. ↲

↲
And lets not forget the bad economy will bring some coders out just to get a steady gig. Nokia has the money all they have to do is match the salary with the current industry standards for each location. They need something like this to get things moving!

I was with the author with the point that Symbian should release tools to make developing for S60 easier. When the most hyped app of the moment, the N97 Facebook client, is actually a web widget, that tells you a lot about the ease (or lack thereof) of developing a native S60 app.
He lost me when he started talking about locking people in a warehouse. I'm pretty sure slavery is illegal, at least in the countries he mentions.
Another thing Nokia could do is to beef up hardware specs. A 264Mhz CPU in a flagship device (N96)? Really? Maybe Nokia can afford to spend considerable time and resources to optimize software for a specific device, but most 3rd party developers can't.

widgets are what are needed in ovi store. A lot of iphone apps are just making data available on the web more useful on a mobile device. There isnt a need for lots of complicated Symbian OS apps. Just simple stuff.

No need to lock anyone up. Just make sure there are rewards for apps developed.

I'm surprised that there are so many people here who do not like the idea of 3500 pounds per month (or 65 thousands USD per year).
In Russia and in Ukraine there are a number of studios (with even more than 10 people) who make best-selling casual games for portals such as BigFishGames or RealArcade with TOTAL BUDGET of 40-60K USD per game.
There must be something wrong in this world economy when in one country people can create the top-selling casual game for a certain sum of money and in another country exactly the same amount of money will not be enough for one person!

I am absolutely amazed that the majority of you have chosen to home in on the 3,500 a month stipend I suggested.

This was back-of-fag-packet.

Make it 10,000 a month.

Make it 50,000 a month.

My point -- as Rafe accurately surmised -- was relating to market forces. Look at you! If I use the responses here as an average representation of Symbian, no wonder the market has simply moved past you all.

I agree with Rafe's assertion that Nokia should fix the market from the front-end (easy, cheaper to develop) but I think it's a little bit too late. If you could wave a magic wand -- if Nokia's CEO, OPK, suddenly said 'change this, this and this' ... we're talking years before that change will impact the market.

Let's not forget the real problem. Right now, Nokia customers are picking up their shiny new N97s and finding next to nothing on the Ovi Store.

Having FIXED the ridiculous install procedures with Ovi Store -- i.e. it's more or less one (or two) clicks to install an application, once you've found it -- the real glaring problem now is the complete lack of stimulating, interesting applications for the end consumer.

They're currently making a value judgement on the Ovi Store. That judgement? It's rubbish. When they're down at the pub and their mate pulls out their iPhone to show off some stupid yet entertaining 'Moron Test' application, they'll wonder why there's nothing like that on the Nokia.

Demand for augmentation of the mobile experience -- whether through the likes of the 'Moron Test' or a more useful 'where is my bus' application -- is burgeoning. Normobs -- your average normal mobile users -- are beginning to demand this functionality in their handset, right now. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next year. Now. Hence all the normob attention for the likes of the iPhone, Pre and an array of Android devices.

My argument is that you have to give them what they want, as soon as possible, via their Nokia devices.

And by that, I mean giving consumers access to ultra simple applications that -- yes, shock horror, DO cost less than �7,000 to develop. Let's get an array of fun, exciting, useful applications on to the phones to show off the superior capabilities of the Nokia. (e.g. background apps)

For example, can't somebody please make a little application that updates your location on Twitter every 30 minutes? Something that sits in the background and does it job and makes the end user feel a bit better about themselves. That does not take 7k to create.

It's difficult, I'll grant you. You can't necessarily create a working demo in 20 minutes, like an experienced Android or iPhone developer might be able to. But in 30 days? Yes.

Right then. Let's continue the innovation. Let's get a ton more simple applications on to the Ovi Store as soon as possible. And while the legions of normobs are being sated by an array of exciting (yet limited) offerings, let's get working away to develop the bigger, better, stunning applications that will really blow the mind of the user.

If we want that level of activity on the Ovi Store, right now, Nokia -- or somebody else -- has to fund it.

Why?

Because the overwhelming majority of developers simply cannot be bothered -- for all sorts of reasons. It's easier, quicker, more pleasing and potentially more rewarding for them to develop on other platforms.

So to everyone who responded with ridiculous outrage ("3,500 is offensive"😉, I assume we can get past that pathetic position because, as many have pointed out, the figure can be whatever you want it to be. It's just a *concept*. Let's have your ideas please. Let's see what you're made of. What does Nokia need to do to compete in the applications marketplace?

Reduce the cost of getting applications in to the Ovi Store by a very large amount.

Ev4n, you have misunderstood us.

We are ISV's who are enthusiastic about the mobile world. We are NOT the Symbian. Many of us have been active in Symbian community, but what makes you think we would be limited to Symbian only? Many developers have moved on from Symbian or turned multi-platform (which in it self leaves more room for the remaining Symbian developers).

If you can master Symbian you can pretty much do any platform. The skill is not to know a platform, that is easy to learn. The skill is actually coming up with useful applications (that can be monetized) and executing them in professional manner.

To put it simply: Market has not driven past us, we (ISV's) go with the market. We go where ever the money is. Many of us went to app store.

From your defensive response I see you really really love your idea. Still, I think your idea stupid and that seems to be the consensus around my ISV friends. I know you must be smart guy but with this issue you do not seem to have any contact to earth.

Everyone that develops apps for Ovi Store (including me) know that Ovi Store sucks. No one arguing with you about that. Ovi Store is about our income and no one likes to see Nokia to screw it like this. But luckily there is Ovi Store, and maybe others that will work.

It's just your original post style was completely insulting to the developers (and with the follow ups you seem to continue with your chosen style).

I can't believe all these replies completely missed the point. Are you seriously complaining about "slavery" and that its illegal? The author was speaking figuratively, not literally. Holy crap. Is that really the intellect, the ONE thing people jump on in this article?! It was joking! Of course the salary would be negotiated for market standards. Geez. Get a grip. The point was nokia needs to hire some talented developers rather than sit back and hope they come back to symbian on their own. Are people seriously whining about a "warehouse"? Get real, OF COURSE they would use real office facilities and not an actual warehouse. Duh.

I guess that's the reaction you get from technical people. Totally picking apart minute details and completely missing the joke and its intent, which is for nokia to hire quality developers in the major cities thru the world and have them develop for the ovi store.

And i agree this is the only way for nokia to make the ovi store relevant at this point. The other platforms have too much of a head start with easier coding compared to s60.

I'm not even sure that it an issue of the tools. You can make an argument for this on native development, but what about WRT 1.1.

To take E4an's Twiiter location example. This would be achievable using WRT very easily.

Get location - http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/CS001161_-_Obtaining_location_information

and then send location to Twitter API - http://apiwiki.twitter.com/Twitter-REST-API-Method%3A-account%C2%A0update_profile

We're probably talking 35 or so lines of code, plus something to handle Twitter username / password (probably more extensive in code terms) + widget wrapper.

I don't think the full impact of WRT 1.1 has been realised / felt yet (partly because it applies to a limited number of devices right now). You can do a lot with it, especially some of the 'cool' internet integration stuff.

As for Ovi Store sucking - I think its too early to make complete judgements, but while there's bad stuff its not out of site. The costs to developers is a bit or red herring - WRT will cost you 50 euro and nothing more. The Symbian Signed stuff is set to improve (and not related to Ovi Store as such)... There are some issue on user experience (around discovery and handling re-downloads). There is good stuff too (the install process, premium SMS, multiple device support).

I sort of buy the content argument, but I'm not sure what the solution is. And to be honest content is a vague area - content is different across markets and even phones (e.g. the derided wallpapers and ringtones in Ovi Store is exactly what some Series 40 phone users will be looking for).

I don't think its necessarily just a simple case of market forces either. There seem to be a fair of bit of Android development, yet the vast majority make very little money here (the same is true of the Apple App Store) - the much talked about 95/5 split (yes I know there are success stories, and exceptions, but that's true even in the Symbian world). At the moment it seems to be regarded as cooler to develop for Android and the iPhone than for Symbian (the intangible reasons).

More time - yes - though as several people have pointed out it is never too early to start fixing things or at least to start pushing things in the right way.

ew4n wrote:

Demand for augmentation of the mobile experience -- whether through the likes of the 'Moron Test' or a more useful 'where is my bus' application -- is burgeoning.


I disagree.

The audience is VERY different. Look at Android Market, there are many fart-apps, but none is or has been popular (look the range numbers at cyrket.com or androidstats.com if you do not have an Android device yourself)

BlackBerry has a number of fart apps, again the same situation - not popular.

Even Nokia OVI Store has several fart apps, but they are not popular at all (according to preliminary stats , to those nudgets of info, we now have from OVI Store).

If gags are extremely popular with iPhone, it does not mean that they'll be popular with any other audience.

You should know and target your audience and not try to copy that of your competitor. Instead of talking about fart-like apps, you should learn the best-sellers of Symbian, just see which sort of software is popular with Nokia users. Core Player, Mobiola video apps, joikuspot - they are not listed in the iPhone App Store, but they are very popular with Symbian users.

If iPhone apps are deleted within a day or two, do you think that this is a good business model?

Pinch Media Data Shows The Average Shelf Life Of An iPhone App Is Less Than 30 Days
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/19/pinch-media-data-shows-the-average-shelf-life-of-an-iphone-app-is-less-than-30-days/

FUUUUUUUUUUCK.

Maybe Nokia should stop charging developers 500$ for privilige of putting apps onOvi Store.

Then maybe they should develop proper, working emulator of the Symbian based crap they manufacture, or if that's too hard, they should send free phones from new OS series to more popular developers. Google can do it, so can fuxking they.

Right now if you want to develop for Symbian not only you have to deal with absolutely atrocious tool-chain and complete lack of documentation ("what, our built-in apps work, so should yours, and we're not giving you no stinking API"😉, but you have to pay double or triple developer tax in form of paying HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS for:
-symbian signed certification
-Ovi Store access
-WRT libaries
-at least single phone for every 9.x Symbian release to be able to see if your application will actually run.

Then, you also have to deal with pure retardness that is S60 UI framework and spend 90% of your time reinventing the wheel and fighting the UI over and over again.

Symbian might have some new promising framerowks like Qt or Python or WRT, but they're all in perpentual alpha/beta state without any stability or compilance guarantees.

And with Nokia assigning a whole three people for entire QtS60 project, that's not going to change any time soon.

But hey, I heard they hired bunch of hi-profile marketing&adverisement bigshots for Symbian Foundation, so I'm sure it's going to be good.

unregistered, you're talking out of your ass. Every single thing you state is complete and utter shit.

You must be one of those idiots, I hear they're quite common on the internet.

symbian is a big pain.

Yesterday i updated my n95 with the latest firmaware and i lost all my contacts, java apps, paid n-gage games, paid ovi apps, only few s60 apps were re-installed.

Why iPhone users can install a new OS version and symbian cannot preserve contacts and apps during a simple patch update?!!?

Symbian is lost. It has secret device APIs and this means INCOMPATIBILITY Of THE APPS BECAUSE Of DUMB OS DESIGN.

Nokia will abandon symbian gradually.

They work on a MAEMO 5 Phone, an Android phone and netbook.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/jul/06/nokia-mobile-internet-phones

Also they keep the s40 which becomes touch and multi-thread.

Is Maemo & Android the end of symbian in high end smartphones?

Only the sales of Maemo & Android smartphones and the Symbian^1 compatibility of API between devices (which is not good) will tell.

Android store gives money back in 24 hrs if you dont like the app. You can re-download a paid app unlike ovi...

Nokia services are not that good.

Why s60 v3.2 is not compatible with v3.1??!?... Poor design, lack of strategy...
Why then Nokia still sells phones with 3.1 which is incompatible with latest version of s60 for non-touch instead of selling N95x with s60 v3.2 or even s60 v5 and make the best T9 smartphone touch?

Ewan

It isn't that the GBP 3500 a month for these coders is the problem, the problem is that Nokia will enter Ovi with it's own ISV-level applications. This make Nokia a direct competitor to all ISV's in the Symbian/S60 application market. Because, these coders will not be independent entities, but Nokia-controller entities, either by law (as these people will be seen as employees) or by economics (as these people will receive a fixed income from Nokia, and not be subjective to consumer demand).

If you are a small ISV (and all ISV's in the Symbian space are small), competing against a multi-billion euro company the size of Nokia that is in complete control of the market is economic suicide. The reasoning is this: as soon as you have a hit, you can be assured that these coders will duplicate your hit and manipulate Ovi in showing their app instead of yours. You loose, Nokia wins, end of ISV.

So, if Nokia really wants to let ISV's know they are not welcome, they should start implementing your idea.

Nokia already has a image problem here, because they want to be a Software and Services company next to a device manufacturer company. Nokia as a Software company is in direct competition with ISV's, and Ovi is their perfect market research tool.

If Nokia wants to increase developer mindset they should instead remove as many hindrances as possible for developers not to make money on Ovi

1) lower their own revenue share cut, make it less than 30%.
2) pressure operators in taking a much lower cut.
3) add additional ways of paying for content like iDeal for Germany, Austria and The Netherlands. These low-cost payment system will in addition help make operator cuts lower.
4) increase the size of the S60 market as quickly as possible, and add older systems like S80 and S60 2nd ed too.
5) increase the market size of the S60 market by loosing Download and adding Ovi Store to firmware upgrades.
6) make sure things work in Ovi so that ISV's can base their decisions on real sales data.
7) make sure DRM works in Ovi, so that ISV's do not loose income because of piracy.