The new BBC have your say on smartphones puts it all in perspective.
Nokia still rules the roost (two categories E & N series) and iPhone, HTC while cool is not for everyone. Off I go to buy some NOKIA shares - fool that I am 😃
Nokia Q3 2009 results, converged device shipments slip
Interesting discussion (and please try to keep it civil and on topic or I'll have more actively moderate some of this thread).
I honestly wouldn't get too obsessed with one quarters market share data. Because it still relatively small the converged device / smartphone space tends to fluctuate a fair bit. This is mainly round big device releases (e.g. Apple iPhone, HTC Hero), not so much Nokia as they have a fairly constant flow of devices and more of them. Here's an illustrative graph :
This quarters market share is down (obviously), but its not as down as much as Q4 last year. I imagine this time round it is down to the launches of the iPhone 3GS, HTC Hero and HTC Magic / G2. Nokia did well in Q2 in large part thanks to the 5800 (we may see a similar pattern with the 5530, 5230 in Q4).
I'd also point out that overall device sales at Nokia are sequentially up (and roughly in line with the market), it is just converged devices that have under-performed a bit... As such the overall results are generally positive in the context (year on year sales down obviously). Saying the profit loss is due to falling devices sales is inaccurate. Net sales is also a bit misleading given downward pressures on ASP.
Sequential comparisons are dodgy because cycles... and year on year can be equally problematic. Bear in mind the economic crisis did not really start to bite until Q4 last year. The next four set of Nokia results are going to look comparatively better year on year. For example if Nokia sell the same number of smartphones next quarter as this one (and it all likelihood it will be higher) there year on year growth for converged devices will be 8.6% (that's more than the overall market growth this quarter)... if you assume they sell 2 million more phones (not totally unreasonable with 5530,5230, E72, N900 and Christmas boost) then the growth would be 16% year on year and so on... (lies, damn lies, and statistics). The same would of course apply to profits.
k.ewin is spot on about Nokia being in transition. The market tends to be quite short term in its outlooks (i.e. it does not reward longer strategies as much you might think).
In the longer term Nokia's real competitor in mobile phones is Samsung. HTC, Apple etc. are competitors in only part of the portfolio. Though of course all are important (probably also consider service /content companies as major competitors given Ovi).
BUSTAFONE wrote:Yeah anyone who dare s to tell the truth about your sinking ship is a troll.After watching you euro types diss us Americans for being behind in cellphones and mobile tech in general, I am elated to see Nokia brought down by whom? APPLE and RIM, Thats right, AMERICAN manufacturers.
Wow, you are a sensitive type. Us Euro types have never dissed Americans as such, but the nature of the US networks and the pricing of handsets has often been brought up by your fellow Americans.
And anyway, judging by the figures, Nokia have NOT been brought down by anyone, least of all one American and one Canadian company.
So, I hope you enjoy your iPhone, now bugger off and leave us in peace. Unless you want to come back and reinforce many Europeans impressions of Americans (and I mean those that live in the USA and not in Canada) by continuing to act like a complete dickhead.
it seems to me like nokia is purposely trying to NOT compete. i mean how many of us have said over and over what the problem is with X, Y and Z? its not rocket science. but nokia sits back like a stubborn 4 year old child with their fingers in their ear screaming "blah blah i cant hear you."
and no i'm not being too harsh. nokia really has nothing that impresses me this year. and i'm the biggest nokia fanboy. mind you i'm talking about high end segment, like Nseries. nokia is doing just fine in low level and mid level arena. but they are embarrassing themselves with the high end.
yet they have so much potential if they would just DO SOMETHING. just do ANYTHING. god, make the software better. start making some truly good apps for the platform, since apparently symbian is so hard for average developers to code for. therefore nokia should do this in house for the sake of self preservation and competition. give us a damn threaded text app for the love of all that is holy in this universe. i'm sick of asking for this. its pathetic. and just roll out universal kinetic scrolling already. this should have been done 1 yera ago and at least the platform wouldnt have been bashed as much as it has been.
here we sit hoping and waiting for a feature as stupid as kinetic scrolling, like rats waiting for a cheese pellet, as if this feature is some holy gift from god. meanwhile every single manufacturer on the planet has given this on every cheap touch phone on the market. even nokia's own cheap touch phones have this.
and i'm supposed to have faith that this company can turn things around? yeah right, april fool's.
They don't have the phones and their Flagship product - you know the one that's meant to provide the halo effect for the whole range is a steaming pile of............ - more linke brown ring effect in this case.
Have mentioned problems my bro had with his N97 before, he's over from US at mom he's brought it with him as he's giving up on it and wondered if I was interested. Yes it's got the expected faults (cam & GPS) and becasue I seemingly can't get it repaired in Uk under warranty, even if he gives it to me for free not sure I want it becasue of potential cost repairing it (who knows what else is going to reveal itself as a novelty feature). The phone is appalling should never have been released and S60 5th is rubbish for the ammount of time it has been worked on - getting on for three years I think it must be.
As a shareholder I am extremely concerned that they have taken their consumer market so much for granted that they've failed to register that the opposition has moved on they also would seem to be aiming permanently behind a moving target i.e. when SF^3 finally reveals itself with basic UI improvements what else will have happened to all the other paltforms in the meantime?? When real consumer Maemo devices come in volume what else will be out etc. Too late. Although the losses can be attributed to the Siemens deal and writing off good-will the shipping figures especially in the upper end are not good and with the products they've inflicted on gullib........unwar........customers they don't desereve to be. I know Steve and the rest say it's only to be expected in a complicated paltform and need to wait while they modify it throughout it's life cycle blah blah but actually in a �500 piece of kit it's not acceptable and the flaws were obvious right off (the hardware is inadequate for a start)and will fatally harm it's sales (N96 anyone) and tarnish the rest of the brand. Once they go iPhone they never come back (it's the Apps) LOL.
snoFlake - concerned shareholder - gulp :-P
It's a shame that Seimen ruin the financial report for Q3 with the 500 million+ EURO write-off.
I was making some good money until the 10% drop in NOK stock price today.
Shame on me for waking up late to this crappy news on Seimen.
@bustafone,
Dude. Go back and learn geography. Canada is not in America. Maybe North America.
Anyway, as an American who owns an iPhone and a Nokia N86, I can say that Apple is not a direct competitor to Nokia proper. Maybe a phone or two here and there but Apple will NEVER topple Nokia nor will Nokia EVER topple Apple. The two are in different markets and only overlap on a few phones. Your complaining show you to be the class skipper that you are/were. Please stop embarrassing yourself and me with your overwhelming lack of knowledge. Nokia's biggest problem is not Apple, Samsung, LG, etc... but Nokia itself. There is too much in-fighting and competition between the E and N series that they are stepping on each others toes. Once Olli-Pekka decides to be a manager rather than a pretty speech maker, the company will be just fine.
Couldn't agree more. I'm a happy E90 user, and have not seen anything from Nokia this year that would tempt me away. The N97 is basically hopeless (you can blame the FW all you like, but the fact is it's a dog), the N97 mini will be the same unless Nokia have added more RAM (and I bet they haven't), many of their recent phones seem to have build-quality issues as well as FW issues; a bit of a mess all round in my opinion. Maybe the N900 will turn things around (I'm hopeful), but it's debatably too little too late for 2009.
I certainly think Nokia need to sort things out FW wise; they have too many models all ostensibly running the same OS/UI version, but none of which work properly when launched. It's all very well to claim that everything will be OK when v20 FW arrives, but that's basically papering over the cracks. And it's all very well claiming that the iPhone couldn't do so and so when it was launched, but the fact is it was stable, while most Nokias simply are not. As someone has already said, many former/prospective Nokia owners buy an iPhone or an Android phone and never look back.
So Nokia is losing it ... what a surprise ! The last line of phones sucks badly, every other major constructor is putting in the market open systems and they insist in reproducing bad formats.
The last VERY good phone (the N95, every body says so, I do too, Nokia do you know why ?) is more than two years old.
Ovi is a failure, how can such a funny name be something serious ? They must think the same since I've been hearing this name so many times and I haven't yet understood what it really means.
In the meantime the iPhone market has become huge and Android is the next VERY BIG THING !
Sorry Nokia, you could be the IBM of the next decade if you don't do something quick.
pls guys - before posting a thread or comment study the financial report (or being nasty I could say pls learn how to read it) and do not mislead readers
Nokia made PROFIT of 741 mln Euro (1,1 bln USD) on regular opratioons (like seling phones services etc)
the "minuses" comes from financial adjustments (listed below) and they have nothing to do with real cash:
(after nokia web site)
“Q3 2009 – EUR 1 167 million consisting of:
– EUR 908 million impairment of goodwill in Nokia Siemens Networks
– EUR 29 million restructuring charge and other one-time items in Nokia
Siemens Networks
– EUR 117 million of intangible assets amortization and other purchase
price related items arising from the formation of Nokia Siemens
Networks
– EUR 111 million of intangible assets amortization and other purchase
price related items arising from the acquisition of NAVTEQ
– EUR 2 million of intangible assets amortization and other purchase
price related items arising from the acquisition of OZ Communications
in Devices & Services”
ps. and pls do not say that Nokia is not about innovations - N900 leaves every other smartphone looking like it has been created in stone age
Unregistered wrote:
ps. and pls do not say that Nokia is not about innovations - N900 leaves every other smartphone looking like it has been created in stone age
Not necessarily true. The N900 only works in landscape, and cannot MMS (who cares). I have played with one on several occasions and can say that it is impressive but it is not the greatest phone out there. It is a nice device that Nokia will find some way to screw up and keep from being the device it could have been.
Stone age? Hardly.....
With all the comments about high end phones - yes there are problems, but they do represent only a part of the picture... Nokia is working to address these and it is easy to focus on the negative without remembering the positive (e.g. success of 5800 and E71 - 35% growth in touch screen device sales).
With regards to the N97 - the version 2.0 software improves things a lot. I personally think the N97 Mini is a better device than the N97. Yes there are issues with S60 5th Edition (OS sound, UI/UX not so much) and there is a plan to deal with these (unfortunately this does take time). Its not a Nokia specific problem either - for example, look at RIM's software strategy going forward.
Unregistered wrote:pls guys - before posting a thread or comment study the financial report (or being nasty I could say pls learn how to read it) and do not mislead readers
Guest good points on the one off costs - I did try and make that clear in the news article. People should take note of these - set the results in the correct context.... Though in one sense the fact that the write downs etc. came as such a shock to the market suggest that, perhaps, Nokia could have trailed this a little better.
I could also take the view that the N900 is not a smartphone - it is a mobile computer. And while I am very impressed with it, I think it represents something of a new market area. I understand what you're saying though - its a definition problem really)
The n900 is falling the same fate as other nokia phones, just 1 simple thing that holds it back. This is missing portrait view. I don't care how nokia wants to "classify" this phone as a mobile computer. People would buy this thing in droves. It really is that simple.
With s60v5, something so simple as threaded text would make such an enormous difference to making the platform competitive and at least would keep the reviewers bashing at bay. But nokia ignores this for a couple years now. Why? Its these types of examples that make people have no faith in nokia's software abilities.
I'm not even talking about these current sales numbers from this article. I'm just talking generally. This is true any time of the year. I actually don't fall for the smartphone numbers game that so many do. I see nokia's actual sales numbers in terms of units sold and think they are doing fine. Its just that the market segment increased so much with new iphone users, who never would have bought a nokia s60 in the first place. So IMO that's not even relevant or a big deal.
But nokia just seems so weak in terms of OS and software for their phones. I don't know why they have ignored this weakness for so long and continue to ignore it. I wish someone could give me a logical reason as to why.
Even the symbian foundation is taking WAY too long. Remember those videos we saw back in 2007 which showed the new nokia touch phones? They played those as if that was nokia's next big thing. As if that was the future where nokia was heading. Yet here in 2009 the symbian foundation isn't even close to releasing a new UI yet, and it won't come out for another 2 years. Why take so long? Doesn't this seem crazy? Its like nokia does not want to compete.
Most of the people posting here do not know what they are saying.
Do not take their comments seriously, you will hurt your brain. =)
Hi All,
Well written comments. Here is my take�
Today, the definition smartphone has a lot to do with the software. Nokia�s software is unable to compete with Apple, RIM or Google with its current software.
Hence, it�s Symbian that has rocked the boat for Nokia. They should have sold it off long back and got into Maemo or Android or something.
Observations:
Pros:
1. The Quarter results were hit largely due to writedowns in their network venture.
2. The economy is in bad shape and you can�t blame Nokia for it.
3. They have been selling feature phone in the millions and will continue to do so, that means money will still keep flowing in.
4. Yon can�t judge a company like Nokia with just one Quarter.
5. One segment that Nokia seems to be doing well is Value based smartphones (e.g. the 5800), which is rich on features but light on your wallet (not pocket).
Cons:
1. Nokia is no longer a dominant smartphone company. Apple, RIM and HTC have devices with �better overall appeal�.
2. It�s going to bleed in both the N-Series and the E-Series segment.
Actually there is nothing like that: Both run on crappy Symbian. You can�t fool business users by putting in a QWERTY keypad and QuickOffice read/write version. What I mean is there is not effort in the software side to cater to the business user.
3. Nokia themselves have realized that symbian is not a viable option for the future. (Sadly. Nobody agreed when bloggers told the same thing 10 months back)
4. Feature phone: In India, Nokia has been the most trusted brand for over two years. It�s very rare for an MNC to hold this position. However, things are changing; Samsung and LG have value phones which both �right priced� and competitive. My personal opinion is, it would be challenging for Nokia to compete in the long term on this space, mostly because they are price sensitive Asian markets and profit will depend on volumes.
5. Services: The much hyped Ovi store, Maps, Nokia money is just not good enough. I don�t know why their contribution has not figured in the Quarter results.
Final word: It takes one magic device to regain past glory. Motorola did it with the Razer, Nokia showed that it had the best smartphone with N95.But this is history now.
Nokia needs to come out with a �Wow! Device� to defend its reputation and this can no longer be done on Symbian period.
SK.
What a load of tosh. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Symbian, but there is certainly something wrong with S60, which is not the same thing at all.
buster wrote:What a load of tosh. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Symbian, but there is certainly something wrong with S60, which is not the same thing at all.
Since most people's experience of Symbian is via S60 (in fact, it is the only way to use Symbian if you buy a new handset). It's VERY easy to see why the two have become synonymous.
S60 is besmirching Symbian's name.
Everybody seems to agree that iPhone, Blackberries, Palm Pre, Android phones etc. are better than the N97. Why?
My N97 had a bit of a rough start, but now the hardware is repaired and software v12 is stable.
I wanted a phone with a large, high resolution screen for surfing, a physical keyboard that does not cover my precious display area, one handed operation, a good 5MP camera, push e-mail, PC synchronization, stable OS, status of Mail, calender etc. on the home screen, integrated VoIP and emulators for retro-gaming.
What other phone should I choose?
People waiting for a proper Nokia smartphone smash hit should wait until Symbian ^4 and Maemo 6 devices will be hitting the shelves. The N900 has geek appeal, but it isn't as complete as current top end Symbian smartphone, and Nokia has already said it will not market it as such. 2011 will be the year of truth.
k.ewin wrote:Everybody seems to agree that iPhone, Blackberries, Palm Pre, Android phones etc. are better than the N97. Why?
Laggy, out of memory conditions that cause app shutdowns and errors, lack of copy and paste (or any other) keyboard shortcuts, inelegant and over complex UI that lacks consistency, browser that struggles with many full websites and is hard to click links?
Just a guess.
celios wrote:Laggy, out of memory conditions that cause app shutdowns and errors, lack of copy and paste (or any other) keyboard shortcuts, inelegant and over complex UI that lacks consistency, browser that struggles with many full websites and is hard to click links?
Did not have any memory issues on heavy usage even with the first firmware. I am used to the UI as a long time S60 user. I am happy with the browser and it is not struggling with any of the sites I have visited. Unfortunately it is just flash light and some pages check for full flash. So that could be enhanced. But others do not even have flash support. 🙄
Shortcut keys and better Cut & Paste would be nice but this is not my main criteria for choosing a phone.
What was problematic for me was the initial experience especially when I had problems with flash photos in the dark and missing software. But meanwhile all has been fixed. (Except integrated VoIP still missing.)
For all the people who don't liek the N97... there are also a lot of people who are happy with the device.
It has out sold the Palm Pre and (I think - not sure about Hero and variants) all individual Android models available in the equivalent time period... That doesn't make it better or worse of course.
It also about addressable market - the N97 isn't perhaps a geek optimised device, but with its integarted services (and stuff like the home screen) it *may* be more consumer friendly. It really depends how you define the market niche...
That said clearly S60 5th Edition has UI issues that need fixing. Every platform has issues. The UI issues on the N97 receieved particular prominence because its a hot topic (rightly so), but other issues are just as important (for some) in the real world - device durability, battery life etc...
Help out Nokia here is a 15% off code with free delivery for the Nokia UK Store
AFFUK15
finishes 21/10/09
Well they just lost another customer here - for life. I spent thousands of dollars a year on their products for the last few years and you know what, the N97 was the last straw. Bye Nokia, I won't miss you.
Rafe wrote:For all the people who don't liek the N97... there are also a lot of people who are happy with the device.It has out sold the Palm Pre and (I think - not sure about Hero and variants) all individual Android models available in the equivalent time period... That doesn't make it better or worse of course.
It also about addressable market - the N97 isn't perhaps a geek optimised device, but with its integarted services (and stuff like the home screen) it *may* be more consumer friendly. It really depends how you define the market niche...
That said clearly S60 5th Edition has UI issues that need fixing. Every platform has issues. The UI issues on the N97 receieved particular prominence because its a hot topic (rightly so), but other issues are just as important (for some) in the real world - device durability, battery life etc...
Rafe, saying that the N97 has outsold the Palm Pre is not the greatest testament to the success of the N97. And let's face it, until the advent of the Hero, Android phones have been phones for the early-adopter/geek that generally don't appeal to the casual mobile shopper.
The same casual shopper won't have heard of the myriad faults of the N97 and will buy it because it is just that - Nokia's flagship, the best phone from the world's biggest mobile manufacturer with a trusted reputation.
Rafe wrote:For all the people who don't liek the N97... there are also a lot of people who are happy with the device.It has out sold the Palm Pre and (I think - not sure about Hero and variants) all individual Android models available in the equivalent time period... That doesn't make it better or worse of course.
It also about addressable market - the N97 isn't perhaps a geek optimised device, but with its integarted services (and stuff like the home screen) it *may* be more consumer friendly. It really depends how you define the market niche...
That said clearly S60 5th Edition has UI issues that need fixing. Every platform has issues. The UI issues on the N97 receieved particular prominence because its a hot topic (rightly so), but other issues are just as important (for some) in the real world - device durability, battery life etc...
Well seeing as until this week the Palm's only been available to Sprint US customers (so 3rd network and CDMA in US) don't think that's a big shock. Whilst N97 available globally - and being returned in droves globally (was told by Nokia Regent St flagship store that they're not taking N97's bought outside UK in for repair even if you pay for it - only doing warranty work at the moment). And it isn't just UI issues Rafe - if you do a plain vanilla install of Nokia's own updates you will make the phone inoperable through out of memory issues. AAS's own how to (bodge) make your N97 work guide suggests not installing many software updates and removing all active homescreen widgets (one of the major sales points trumpeted by Nokia) to make the thing stable. So the phone's hardware (apart from the Camera, the useless GPS and worse speakers than 5800) is incapable of running the advertised features and after following your own guides you have turned a �500 N97 into a �500 5800 xpress music. I don't care anympore about v2.0, N97 customers have had to wait for many months for a software update just to make their paperweight function - it's not the UI improvements (though God knows they're overdue - what were they doing between October 2008 announcement and summer 2009 release, all in the sauna?) it's making the stupid (alleged) phone actually work at all.
So dismal has this experience been I really think Nokia owe the early (victims) adopters of this some form of compensation - this was not a cheap item. I know it's never gonna happen but something like free voice guidance upgrade to Ovi maps (which after all would cost Nokia very liitle in real terms) would be the least they could do to compensate people for their wasted time (days in some cases). But like I say never gonna happen, another satified customer.
Interesting post snoFlake. Found this at The Guardian, not mentioned by the editors here:
Carolina Milanesi, research director for mobile devices at industry specialist Gartner, said sales of Nokia's flagship N97 smartphone do not appear to have been exactly stellar. "Despite their positive comments on the N97 I am reluctant to say that sales of 1.8m for a flagship product are good enough. Moreover, as Nokia stated at the beginning of September that N97 shipped 1.5m devices since the launch we can see that sales are actually not accelerating."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/oct/15/nokia-has-first-loss-for-a-decade
So Nokia stuffed the channel with millions of N97s, but sales have dried up completely. There will be a big write-down for this.
The N97 is a monumental example of a product which is 80% right (because it was incremental), but fails miserably in the 20%(because it was forced on them) end-users today care about.
The time to experiment (Services, Symbian^X, Maemo etc) based on success of others(Apple, Google etc) is not the way forward for a dominant company.
Nokia, You need to do your own thing !!! Before that, get your act together.
Hmm, the N97 looks to be following the N96 in Europe as a nearly phone and ith Nokia having made a good channel supply, I will be looking to pick up cheap one soon!
As one not idiotic enough to be an early adopter of any of these kind of devices. (see iPhone one, N96, countless Windows Mobile abortions and some poor Treo stuff from Palm) I will be happy to stand back and pick my quarry.
Nokia as a business seem to be holding up well, just can't get one or two products to where they want them. Impressive performance considering the Siemens provision, the current economic conditions and all the new entrants to the market.
N900 will be another disappointment. Be very careful of that one. You are warned.
A bit early to make the call on the N900?
But given the pattern of hype then disappointment over releases this year (anyone recall AAS being awash with how the N97 was going to be Nokia's 'white knight' back in May?) will the N900 be the one to break the cycle?