In the run-up to SEE 2009, I'd been mulling over which smartphones to take for blogging purposes - and one of my requirements, obviously, had to be something with a camera that was good enough. Below are my thoughts and findings, in which I discover that one of my own theories wasn't necessarily true...
Read on in the full article.
I've pretty much stopped using my n97 camera for now. we'll see what happens with later firmware.
Indoors the auto flash is a red eye nightmare. without flash (unless everbody is totally totally still - including me) then everything is shockingly blurry.
Outdoors, it does well in ideal conditions. But the macro auto focus is a bit touch and go...
And the 5 screen presses to go menu > scene > pick scene > back > exit is just too much. should be on-screen scene and flash shortcuts, where picking something takes you back to camera mode... i.e. pickscene > macro [back to main]
I love what the N97 could be. the touch screen is pretty good. the keyboard is great when you get ued to it. But the camera makes me yearn for my n95... I hope they tweak it soon...
Hmm if you want to have vivid colours, you shoud take the N73
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/djmuzi/6337756/sizes
Allmost as good as the N86 😉
http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=131020091279gsk.jpg
Not much difference if you look at the pictures at normal size on your computer moitor.
The new 3 megapixels phones are not comparable to the good old N73 in no way!
Things are almost always a compromise. It depends what you're taking photos for. Where they're destined. On a website? Blog? Blowing up to A1 as a poster on a wall? 6x4 print to throw on the coffee table/magnet-attach to fridge? Send to Granny? I've banged on about this before and although I concede that sure enough when compared next to each other the E75 pics are 'inferior' to the N86 ones in Steve's article, in real life we're not comparing pics with other ones and our very clever brains 'make good' pictures so we can enjoy viewing them. I'd be happy with the 'lesser' pics here unless I was specifically wanting to make a large print.
Tim
Careful Steve,
A camera thread isn't complete without a whiny "xenon or nothing" post. 😉
I knew it: my N86 8MP was a great acquisition! 😊
I love to take pictures with my cellphone and for this purpose I've owned this devices: SE K700, SE W600, SE K750, SE K550, Zonda 2000, Nokia N82, Nokia N85 and Nokia N86 8MP.
Want to take pictures? Get yourself a decent compact camera or better yet a proper DSLR. Sorry but not intereseted in some pin sized lens shots from your crappy Nokia.
The main problem with the E75 seemed to be that it had a blue wash (Assuming that was not just my computer). Can't that be taken out in the settings somewhere?
Phone camera = poor camera. Some are poorer than others but they are all shyte.
Arthur & Unregistered: You're both wrong - the N86 8MP has the same sensor in it as many standalone cameras. The only restriction is on lens size - for most light conditions, the N86 can take just as good a photo as a standalone. And possibly better, since you'll have better depth of field. AND it will always be with you.
Damian, if you're still reading all this, well done. Now get your N86 team to fix up the firmware oddities and you're done 8-)
Unregistered wrote:Phone camera = poor camera. Some are poorer than others but they are all shyte.
But there are not much people running around with their DSLR every day 😊
Some people enjoy take pictures with their camera phone 😊 I have tons of pics since the beginning with the Nokia 7650 😊 With my normal camera I dont have that much pictures.
slitchfield wrote:Arthur & Unregistered: You're both wrong - the N86 8MP has the same sensor in it as many standalone cameras. The only restriction is on lens size - for most light conditions, the N86 can take just as good a photo as a standalone. And possibly better, since you'll have better depth of field. AND it will always be with you.Damian, if you're still reading all this, well done. Now get your N86 team to fix up the firmware oddities and you're done 8-)
But there is still too much compression and jpeg-artefakts that makes the N86 only as goos as a 3.2 megapixels digital camera.
For Camera Phones + points :
Tested are qualities for :
- Camera and screen
- easy use and multipurpose
- battery-use at capture and PC transfer
1) N79 74
2) 6220Classic 73
3) N95 8GB 73
4) N86 8MB 73
5) 6500Slide 71
6) N97 71
7) SS jet 70
8) SS i900 Omnia 70
9) N85 69
10) E75 68
To close to call ...... ?
N86 has better autumn-yellow IMO .
😊 Regards jApi NL
I have a DSLR, digital compact (G10) and N86. They all have their uses. The N86 obviously fairing the worst, but the pictures are still pretty good - almost as good as dedicated compacts from two years ago. So yes they are a compromised, but unlike my DSLR and G10, I always have my phone with me which is great for snapping moments when I am not willing to carry bulky cameras with me.
Arthur, what do you use?
Want to take pictures? Get yourself a decent compact camera or better yet a proper DSLR. Sorry but not intereseted in some pin sized lens shots from your crappy Nokia.
Arthur wrote:Want to take pictures? Get yourself a decent compact camera or better yet a proper DSLR. Sorry but not intereseted in some pin sized lens shots from your crappy Nokia.
D�j�-vu... 🙄
Steve .. why not take the N86 and your bluetooth keyboard?
Steve,
The issue you seem to have a problem with here is the difference in the two camera's interpretations of 'White Balance'. It is a perenial issue and one most photographers address to their own taste initially in the processing of RAW files. It was alluded to above by Jejoma as "a blue wash".
Although it has carry over to the issues you refer to in your Camera Nitty Gritty Postscript article, particularly brightness and saturation, it is an independent one not previously mentioned (I'm not saying the article is wrong, quite the opposite, just incomplete). It concerns assessment of the temperature of the light in a scene and the subsequent assignment of colours to the data collected by the sensor. Please read this article for more info:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/white-balance.htm
This particular issue could be fixed for pictures from any camera irrespective of other quality matters through:
[LIST=1]
[*]Camera Firmware changes to the way the sensor data is interpreted from RAW file to JPEG;
[*]Camera Software to allow changes to the JPEG to be made to alter white balance after the shot is taken (although this will create JPEG re-compression issues);
[*]Using computer software that can alter white balance in JPEGs (again this creates JPEG re-compression issues); or
[*]Using computer RAW editing software to alter the RAW file to output a JPEG (the best method but not currently possible as there is no access to phone camera RAW files).
[/LIST]
These issues are the same ones that users of other types of camera equipment have been trying to tackle for years and often come down to personal preference as you point out in your article. As cameraphone users become more discerning so the demand for tools to express these personal preferences will grow; namely access to RAW files and the ability to edit them. I don't think it is really fair to judge the cameras themselves on these issues.
Cheers.
seki wrote:Steve .. why not take the N86 and your bluetooth keyboard?
It had crossed my mind. But the N86's battery is going to be hit hard anyway through the day, with over two hours of video recording. I just wanted to split the workload a little 8-)
And yes, I've got a Proporta charger *as well*. Me - belt and braces? - oh yes. Taking along an N95 as WELL!
It's true that you are more likely to use a camera phone than a DSLR or digital compact because the camera phone is likely to be with you all the time but...
The point is that all phone cameras are poor, so you don't really expect to get a crisp clean image with the phone, it's like digital cameras about 1995 quality.
So, I don't see much point in worrying whether this phone takes slightly less cr@p pictures than that phone. Digital cameras either capture good quality images (leave the compostion factor out of the debate) or they don't and at the moment, the cameras in phones don't. When a phone does (and that is going to take a miracle breakthrough sensors/lens) then it will be worth considering.
djmuzi wrote:But there is still too much compression and jpeg-artefakts that makes the N86 only as goos as a 3.2 megapixels digital camera.
Completely agree that megapixels does not automatically = better pics, in many cases it can mean worse image quality.
However, having been involved in the N73 I feel confident in saying that N86 8MP is the best camera we have done to date. Detail is greater and more natural + colour is more consistent. As good as the N73 was for the time there are some false colour issues from time to time which we've seen a lot of development in over recent years, even in the time between the first and latest N86 fw. I personally believe N86 colour is one of the best performing mobiles in this regard. Vibrant but still true to life. Some products provide vibrant colour but which then compromise the true to life part. It's a tough balance, especially when you throw in subjective views too 😉
As for compression. I've covered this so many times 😉 There are no visible compression based artefacts in the images captured with the N86 which reducing the compression level would make any noticeable difference to. I know this because we checked this again just very recently comparing images with current v20 fw settings and a modified version with no compression.
atb
D
Steve, I think what you're seeing there is a colour balance issue. The E75 is sensing the fact that the light is quite warm and is "correcting" for it. Try a setting ("cloudy"?) that assumes quite cold light to give you a warmer finished product. It's not just phones that do this: I have the same issue with my "proper" camera, which, left on "automatic", will completely ruin the warm light of an early morning or late evening.
Arthur=FAIL.
"Want to take pictures? Get yourself a decent compact camera or better yet a proper DSLR. Sorry but not intereseted in some pin sized lens shots from your crappy Nokia."
Sorry, not interested in your crappy little comments. You really are a prize *rseh*le.
Hello,
the differences you are seeing in your pictures is just because of the auto setting on white balance.. just use manual (try cloudy for a warmer image) and you will have more control on the rendition of the colors.. You can also give a try to the vivid setting in "Color tone"...
Unregistered wrote:I have a DSLR, digital compact (G10) and N86. They all have their uses. The N86 obviously fairing the worst, but the pictures are still pretty good - almost as good as dedicated compacts from two years ago. So yes they are a compromised, but unlike my DSLR and G10, I always have my phone with me which is great for snapping moments when I am not willing to carry bulky cameras with me.Arthur, what do you use?
What's interesting about this post is that many of the latest line of digital compacts that coming out are not as good (image quality) as cameras were 2 or more years ago. However, I can categorically assure everybody that the N86 is nowhere near them, and is never likely to be given the sensor size and glass used. Only the basic cheapo cameras have images as bad as phones. That's all phones. Satios, Pixons, N86 included. That's the pointless cheap cameras that have the same sort of sensors, basically the toys.
Phone cameras ARE great for snapping those moments. Important word there, "snapping". Just don't expect anything more than mediocre image quality and don't worry about getting anal over the quality. No point trying to polish a turd. Go to a shop selling compact digital cameras, look at the size of the piece of glass over the front of the lens. Then look the equivalent component on your phone. Physics.
I think many people are missing the whole point of the article. It was to compare the cameras on different phones, not to compare them with a stand-alone camera.
As to Arthur's pointless comment; it wasn't funny the first time, so why you felt the urge to post it twice is anybody's guess...
DamianDinning wrote:Completely agree that megapixels does not automatically = better pics, in many cases it can mean worse image quality.However, having been involved in the N73 I feel confident in saying that N86 8MP is the best camera we have done to date. Detail is greater and more natural + colour is more consistent. As good as the N73 was for the time there are some false colour issues from time to time which we've seen a lot of development in over recent years, even in the time between the first and latest N86 fw. I personally believe N86 colour is one of the best performing mobiles in this regard. Vibrant but still true to life. Some products provide vibrant colour but which then compromise the true to life part. It's a tough balance, especially when you throw in subjective views too 😉
As for compression. I've covered this so many times 😉 There are no visible compression based artefacts in the images captured with the N86 which reducing the compression level would make any noticeable difference to. I know this because we checked this again just very recently comparing images with current v20 fw settings and a modified version with no compression.
atb
D
The N86 colours are awsome. Thats why I bought this phone look at this:
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/djmuzi/6359949/sizes/in/group/125190
I made this photo because the colours of the clouds impressed me that much. And the N86 was really able to take the colours on the photo! I was at home and don't took my Cybeshot camera because I knew that the N86 would make the better coloured picture 😊
I wonder if there will be further improvements for the camera with upcoming firmware versinon, since you are no more involved with the N86 (I thing I read this in another thread).
(Maybe you/Nokia are/is allready working on a kind of N87 😎 )
buster wrote:I think many people are missing the whole point of the article. It was to compare the cameras on different phones, not to compare them with a stand-alone camera.
It's not missing a point, it's making the point that there isn't a decent phone camera.
And that these isn't a point to comparing one lot of garbage with another lot of garbage.
Unregistered wrote:It's not missing a point, it's making the point that there isn't a decent phone camera.And that these isn't a point to comparing one lot of garbage with another lot of garbage.
But why don't you understand? There is no garbage vs garbage but N86 vs E75 😊 Why not comparing camera phones? We could compare 2 DSLR cameras but this is a phone site, so they are comparing phones 😊 over (or do you know a camera with Symbian OS? 😃 )
