Sony Ericsson - Customer Care Center about the firmware upd.

Well, if that is the case, it is the problem with customer service over there.

Perhaps their purpose for this is to avoid reckless human error which will only resault to more damage units increasing need for service on their part. There are a lot of factors to consider when flashing your own rom, like power failure in the middle of flashing, which will lead to a dead, unusable system after that failure. The risks of flashing a PC bios would be the same I guess.

So we could actually just leave it to the experts, its free anyway 😊

well i think musicfreak that the least they could do is give you the option to do it yourself not under warranty, or have it flashed there under warranty, i have been updating the roms on my ipaq3975 and never had a problem. I think it is a bad policy and further very discouraging for customers experiencing crashes from SE software and having to go to a retailer to get problem fixed. How much easier is it to present us w/ a rom upgrade online!
when they say warranty void if phone open, they could have such a policy for flashing rom yourself, anyway if you f%$K it up you then could bring it to an SE retailer, that way they wouldn't be so busy w/ every single unit beeing brought in for flashing.

Well for those with expereince, why not indeed, and just a clause that it will void the warranty. In my opnion, and I speak only for myself, Id rather bring i to SE because if any were to make a mistake in flashing it I woudlnt want it to be, Id rather have them fix it for free. I spent a lot on this phone already and Im sure ill be spending more when the accesories arrive 😊 But that is just my personal opinion.

If SE would come up with a simple user friendly way to update online without voifing the warranty though like having an autp update software the constantly checks online for updates and notifies you and lets you update it by using the cradle we all have now, I would definitely give it a try 😊

@Muzik - don't you ever sleep? Nocturnal?

If i happen to go to Cebu again, maybe we can have coffee and chat. Just a thought

[quote="Muzikfreakah"]Perhaps their purpose for this is to avoid reckless human error which will only resault to more damage units increasing need for service on their part. There are a lot of factors to consider when flashing your own rom, like power failure in the middle of flashing, which will lead to a dead, unusable system after that failure. The risks of flashing a PC bios would be the same I guess.

So we could actually just leave it to the experts, its free anyway 😊[/quote]

Why is this such a big problem for the P800 while you can update close to all PDAs (Palm, PSION, CE....) yourself? Why is it a bigger problem to flash the ROM then it is for my Garmin GPS receiver or my Windows PC (including the BIOS)? I don't think the risk is higher to crash the P800 then with any other device - and I don't think the people at the repair center are "experts" - I've been there twice and never had the feeling that I talked to "experts" :silly: .
And don't forget the second critic: where is a list with all fixes and new features for every update? Where can I read what I will get if I walk into the city to get the update from a repair center? I there also the risk of a "human error" behind reading a "what's new" note? :splat:

Maybe they're afraid that the Sony Ericsson venture wouldn't take off sucessfully and want to minimise on all the cost.
:evil:

[quote="detlef"]We should post some mail adresses of Sony Ericsson officials here and on other boards and send them as many mails as we could.[/quote]

Oh thats really going to help matters isn't it. What a great plan...

We all appreciate that it's a slight inconvenience to go to a service centre. But as the SE person says: "You have to accept this behavior because it will not change in the future."

Nuff said.

[quote="Andy_P"]Oh thats really going to help matters isn't it. What a great plan...[/quote]

hmm - you have a better idea? Just ignore the problem and pay SE whatever they want for a product with a lot of bugs and a customer service that would be a perfect candidate to get the Oscar "most awful customer service of the year"?

[quote="Andy_P"]We all appreciate that it's a slight inconvenience to go to a service centre. But as the SE person says: "You have to accept this behavior because it will not change in the future."[/quote]

"slight inconvenience" is not the right term to describe this behavior IMHO. You have no official informations about the bug-fixes/features of any firmware update, you don't even know when a new software release is out. So - do you walk to "your" repair center once a week to say hello to those "experts"? Do you have the time to walk to the SE center for your update during the week and the normal working hours, to wait for some hours to get the new update?
Since you can update all other devices you own by yourself (PDA, PC...) I would see this behavior of SE to be considered as an important difference when someone thinks about buying a P800. If the sales drop - SE will have to react - so a little publicity about this heavy problem could help.

because on the cebit you also have it in about two minutes !

[quote="robbie28II"]because on the cebit you also have it in about two minutes ![/quote]

Ahh - nice hint - only 400km to get the update for me - maybe I'll go there next week - oh, the CeBIT ends this week - no problem: all SE users will be happy to wait for a year to travel to Hannover to get the update so fast. 😃

And - did you get a paper describing all fixed bugs and the new features you got? It would be great if you share it with us...

The reason why se doesn't give the option to upgrade p800 the easy way are more deep than they seem. P800 is not only a pda but also a mobile phone. Every single mobile phone from the very very first has an IMEI number. The updates are done through internet. The IMEI number is sent to se not only to verify the type of the phone in order to download the appropriate firmware (this upgrade method is the same for every sony-ericsson/ericsson mobile phone,not only p800) but also to check if the phone is stolen... Ericsson had made an effort to enable firmware upgrades through any pc with internet connection,and a data cable, but that was some time ago for old phones (the lasts i can recall from my memory were t10&t18.) i don't remember the site but the whole process was done through a web site with javascript. Unfortunately after se was founded, all those plans were abandoned.

[quote="MemphisX"]The reason why se doesn't give the option to upgrade p800 the easy way are more deep than they seem.[/quote]

But you try to explain the reason (thanks) - the SE support simply told me that they will not explain the reason to anybody - I should accept the facts, that's it.

[quote="MemphisX"]P800 is not only a pda but also a mobile phone.[/quote]

It's much more a phone then a PDA - the limited software support by SE is the best sign for that fact. Unthinkable for a PDA company. Also: the amount of bugs is more typical for a mobile phone. With - for example - a Palm PDA you always know what OS version is the current, what new features came with the new OS, what bugs have been fixed and you installed the OS yourself....

[quote="MemphisX"]Every single mobile phone from the very very first has an IMEI number. The updates are done through internet. The IMEI number is sent to se not only to verify the type of the phone in order to download the appropriate firmware (this upgrade method is the same for every sony-ericsson/ericsson mobile phone,not only p800) but also to check if the phone is stolen... Ericsson had made an effort to enable firmware upgrades through any pc with internet connection,and a data cable, but that was some time ago for old phones (the lasts i can recall from my memory were t10&t18.) i don't remember the site but the whole process was done through a web site with javascript. Unfortunately after se was founded, all those plans were abandoned.[/quote]

SONY is famous for the bad support (try to bring in your DV-camera to a Sony service center, or your Sony laptop, or try to get new drivers for a Sony PC...) and it seems that SE adopted this behavior. I can think of several solutions concerning the IMEI number - but SE must be pushed to change this - without any pressure from the customers: why change things?

Name one other phone manufactuer that allows users to flash/upgrade their phone. Can't think of any? Odd 😊

A phone is ALOT more complex than a PDA, gps or anything else. Also alot bigger in terms of software. And allowing people to do the upgrades themself would open up a whole new area of bugs/problems.

I mean, what if a user flashes his phone with a software that wasn't supposed to be in that revision of the hardware? Sure, it may SEEM to work, but in actuallity, the phone is doing some pretty wrong stuff, leading to bad reception, increased battery drain, etc.

There are just too many reasons why a user shouldn't be allowed to upgrade their phone. Sure, it may stink and the SE support is probably not the best (nor the worst) but atleast you'll get a working phone after a upgrade.

But I agree that the response you got from the support was a bit lame, but hey, maybe he/she had that question a zillion times already (or he/she is just a b-tch, we'll never know 😉 )

I for one will keep bringing my P800 to a SE service center.

My $0.02 / Henric

[quote="fonzki"]@Muzik - don't you ever sleep? Nocturnal?

If i happen to go to Cebu again, maybe we can have coffee and chat. Just a thought[/quote]

Hehehe. Sometimes I cant sleep, I leave my laptop on beside me so I can just use it everytime I want. Surfing is my cigarette replacement. I quit smoking around 2 years ago. This is all I do now with a little bit og alcohol sometimes 😊

Yes lets do that. Maybe we can share some aps or something.

Well I cant say its the same for me. Everytime I email SE Philippines they reply to me within like 15 mins. Its like chatting with them already. They have been able to answer 80% of my questions, the rest I had to figure out myself but the important thing for me is the quik response. It makes me feel safe to know that someone is always there. 😉

[quote="MrWorf"]Name one other phone manufactuer that allows users to flash/upgrade their phone. Can't think of any? Odd 😊[/quote]

hmmm - if all do wrong is that a good argument to keep this stupid behavior?

[quote="MrWorf"]A phone is ALOT more complex than a PDA, gps or anything else. Also alot bigger in terms of software. And allowing people to do the upgrades themself would open up a whole new area of bugs/problems.[/quote]

Why is a phone more complex then a PDA, a GPS device or a PC? I think a PC is far more complex and some advanced PDAs offer nearly the same functions (I got my P800 to replace my PSION) - most of the PDA offer even more complex software apps. Symbian is Symbian - wether you use it on a phone or on a PDA. The network (phone) functions are nothing with a higher level complexity. Only the phone users are more dump then a normal PDA user IMHO. But nobody is forced to do the update himself - I only ask for this option.

[quote="MrWorf"]I mean, what if a user flashes his phone with a software that wasn't supposed to be in that revision of the hardware? Sure, it may SEEM to work, but in actuallity, the phone is doing some pretty wrong stuff, leading to bad reception, increased battery drain, etc.[/quote]

Same problems could happen on a PDA. It's also a question of the quality of the installer software that has to check for the correct phone/rom version before the update.

[quote="MrWorf"]There are just too many reasons why a user shouldn't be allowed to upgrade their phone. Sure, it may stink and the SE support is probably not the best (nor the worst) but atleast you'll get a working phone after a upgrade.

But I agree that the response you got from the support was a bit lame, but hey, maybe he/she had that question a zillion times already (or he/she is just a b-tch, we'll never know 😉 )[/quote]

From what I read in the mails - the SE support is the worst I saw so far.

[quote="detlef"]Just ignore the problem and pay SE whatever they want for a product with a lot of bugs and a customer service that would be a perfect candidate to get the Oscar "most awful customer service of the year"?
Do you have the time to walk to the SE center for your update during the week and the normal working hours, to wait for some hours to get the new update?[/quote]

I really think you need to put this into perspective rather than citing your own personal agenda: As many people have said, noone allows you to update a phone yourself. Full stop. So why on earth should this be any different?

Secondly, I don't think *my* p800 has "lots of bugs" at all - I have reset it a few times but I think thats due to a signal problem in my area. I am very happy with my p800 in terms of reliability and Im sorry if you think otherwise.

And thirdly, what on earth makes you say that SE support is the worst? I have dealt with many more companies who offer ridiculously bad support (ok Sony is one with respect to Vaios) than SE... If you are basing this on the fact that they don't want to give you reasons as to why you can't update your P800 at home then I think this is a pretty pathetic argument.

I still think the SE support person had exactly the right response for your question when they said "accept it".

Why do people have to be so damn negative?? Give people the most revolutionary phone to date and they complain it's "full of bugs" and supported by the worst company ever... there's no pleasing some people.

[/rant]

Way to go Andy_P! If you dont like it then sell it. I wonder why he said "Accept it" How many times did you ask the guy anyway?

[quote="Andy_P"]I really think you need to put this into perspective rather than citing your own personal agenda: As many people have said, noone allows you to update a phone yourself. Full stop. So why on earth should this be any different?[/quote]

I remember one (MrWorf) who wrote that no mobile phone allows to update the phone myself - not "many people". But that doesn't change the facts you are bringing up here. On the other hand: why should I accept something that's bad, only because others don't do it better? We would still sit around in caves with this way to think.

[quote="Andy_P"]Secondly, I don't think *my* p800 has "lots of bugs" at all - I have reset it a few times but I think thats due to a signal problem in my area.[/quote]

you like your P800 and close your eyes for problems or scale them down. That's fine for me. Still there are several known bugs or important features missing.
Samples: the language packs have several translations bugs (timezones wrong), choosing sounds for SMS (the sound should stop when I react) or contacts (only choose different sounds for groups) is very limited (feature?), you have to install 3rd party software to close open applications (battery!), the SPEED DIAL bug with an older firmware, no nightmode for the camera, sync time with the PC, sync problems on XP, no repeating events for the calendar (birthdays), the handwriting engine has problems with special chars, if you receive a new sms and open the sms folder, you don't see wether a sms is new...

But if you are right - why are we talking about firmware updates at all? Why do you walk to a service center to get a new update if you never found any problems with the current version?

[quote="Andy_P"]I am very happy with my p800 in terms of reliability and Im sorry if you think otherwise.

And thirdly, what on earth makes you say that SE support is the worst? I have dealt with many more companies who offer ridiculously bad support (ok Sony is one with respect to Vaios) than SE...[/quote]

I wrote two nice mails because of the firmware update to the customer support. The first answer was a standard reply not covering any of my questions and it took SE around 24h for the answer. The second reply was not friendly at all - more or less like "piss of" - nothing like "sorry we can't...".
I asked them last week about the new 64/128 duo memory stick and still wait for an answer.

[quote="Andy_P"]If you are basing this on the fact that they don't want to give you reasons as to why you can't update your P800 at home then I think this is a pretty pathetic argument.

I still think the SE support person had exactly the right response for your question when they said "accept it". [/quote]

First of all the tone of the mail was very unfriendly - second: why should I just shut up and accept something without a reason seems logical to me?

[quote="Andy_P"]Why do people have to be so damn negative?? Give people the most revolutionary phone to date and they complain it's "full of bugs" and supported by the worst company ever... there's no pleasing some people.
[/quote]

I wrote this statements here during this thread - my mails to the SE support were very friendly. SONY makes some really nice things - but you have to be very fascinated by the product to stand the customer support. The same with the P800 - the features are very nice if you look at the phone for the first time and for one of the most expensive phones on the market, but when you use it for some time - other aspects become important... I got the P800 to replace my PSION MX5 and my Nokia phone - the nokia is the better phone and the Psion is the better PDA - I know I had to make some compromises, but the customer support simply reduced my motivation - this will change again hopefully.

[quote="detlef"]

you like your P800 and close your eyes for problems or scale them down. That's fine for me. Still there are several known bugs or important features missing.

Samples: the language packs have several translations bugs (timezones wrong), choosing sounds for SMS (the sound should stop when I react) or contacts (only choose different sounds for groups) is very limited (feature?), you have to install 3rd party software to close open applications (battery!), the SPEED DIAL bug with an older firmware, no nightmode for the camera, sync time with the PC, sync problems on XP, no repeating events for the calendar (birthdays), the handwriting engine has problems with special chars, if you receive a new sms and open the sms folder, you don't see wether a sms is new...
[/quote]

With the exception of the speed dial problem, which I believe has since been fixed, not one of those "problems" is a bug?

Just because you have bought something and expected certain features it do be there, doesn't make it a bug when you discover you were wrong.

My house only has two bedrooms, but I'd like it to have three. Does this mean my house has a bug?

Yeah, I'd like to be able to upgrade the firmware without taking a five hour trip on a boat to the nearest service center (at a cost of $50), but I knew about it before I bought it so I'll live with it.

[quote="Bassey"]With the exception of the speed dial problem, which I believe has since been fixed, not one of those "problems" is a bug?[/quote]

It's never easy to seperate bugs from feature requests. I'm sure some people will rate the PC sync software as bug free - others won't.
But that's not the main thing I would like to talk about in this thread.

Again: if there are no bugs or missing features - we don't need to talk about a firmware update at all! Who needs an update if everything is fine, state of the art, outstanding, or most revolutionary on earth?

People who see the P800 as finished and free of bugs don't need to discuss any aspect of firmware updates. People who are looking for bug fixes or missing features will have to solve the problem how to get the update.

[quote="Bassey"]Yeah, I'd like to be able to upgrade the firmware without taking a five hour trip on a boat to the nearest service center (at a cost of $50), but I knew about it before I bought it so I'll live with it.[/quote]

I didn't know before I got the P800 - but that's my problem not to ask for this option because I transported my PSION experiences to another Symbian device that looked a like a PDA to me 😞

One question: if there is a new firmware update: form where do you get the information about this update? Form SE? Who tells you before you do your 5h trip what you get with the update? SE - because of the great customer support?

i think a lot of people in this thread are missing one of the main reasons why SE won't let you upgrade it yourself.

They don't want to give people programs to flash the phone in case people start trying to use this to do things such as changing the IMEI. As much as i would like to be able to update it from home, i would rather it be harder for someone to use my phone if stolen.

Jon

[quote="DodgyJon"]i think a lot of people in this thread are missing one of the main reasons why SE won't let you upgrade it yourself.

They don't want to give people programs to flash the phone in case people start trying to use this to do things such as changing the IMEI. As much as i would like to be able to update it from home, i would rather it be harder for someone to use my phone if stolen.

Jon[/quote]

Hi Jon,

you made a goog point - but couldn't SE setup the PC updatesoftware so that a change of the IMEI is impossible? And if someone deals in a professional way with stolen phones - to get a (illegal) contact to the SE repair center should be not the biggest problem!

Detlef

P.S.: Concerning the "bugs" of the P800 - anybody played with the viewer app to read a PDF? That's what I call a bug: the PDFs are rendered badly and the viewer is very, very, very slow.

As a Mac user, I'd like to point out that the base station and software don't even work with my system - but I'm still happy with the phone! It does what I wanted it for, and some things I hadn't even thought of, and it does them all well.

Nice product.

:angel:

[quote="Andy_P"] As many people have said, noone allows you to update a phone yourself. Full stop. So why on earth should this be any different?
[/quote]

I've heard of a couple of manufactorers who allow you to update yourself. Unfortunatly I cannot remember which ones.... :roll: , but I can however rememer a small Norwegian company who released a cell phone-PDA hybrid some years ago which allowed you to do updates over the internet. I think the product was named Magcom and it was probably the most advanced phone of it's time, unfortunatly it was priced through the roof and hence did not sell very well, the company went bankrupt. I've never heard of any problems relating to the home-upgrades though.

I really think SE should make this possible for P800 users.

damn it - stop trying to spoil my argument!

😊