Standing up in front of the world’s press, or quietly letting the numbers be published and just nudging people to draw their own conclusions? In their own ways, both Apple and Nokia this week laid claim to be the “the biggest company in mobile devices.” Steve took the stage, and Olli-Pekka left it to the annual results. And they were both right. Read on.
Read on in the full article.
Would RIM have something to say in this too?
A MacBook is not a 'mobile device' Steve Jobs. You need to be able to actually use the thing while walking. iPod yes, iPhone yes, iPad - ooooh, pushing it. MacBook, well NO!
@Unregistered
Yes. Probably 'We make no claim on the title of largest mobile device company in the world, because that would be ludicruous and we'd be laughed off the face of the earth'
Even including iPods and Macbooks I'm pretty sure that Nokia ships more devices and earns more revenue too. Is Apple basing their assertion on Market cap or, rather, enterprise value?
if I recall didn't nokia also release a tablet? N810, and all of its predecessors??
Brendan Donegan wrote:@UnregisteredYes. Probably 'We make no claim on the title of largest mobile device company in the world, because that would be ludicruous and we'd be laughed off the face of the earth'
"however, we sell more smartphones than Apple".
"however, we sell more smartphones than Apple".
True, but I think the difference here is that Apple deliberately doesn't compete at the low end of the market. They sell devices that compete in the upper N-series and E-series ranges, only (and don't make an artificial distinction between enterprise and consumer, but that's a different topic).
As for "mobile devices," does the Nokia netbook count? If so, then perhaps so do MacBooks. Either way, from a market cap perspective, Apple is much bigger. Before iPhone was released, the two companies had similar market caps (with the edge to Nokia IIRC).
Both RIM and Nokia make low-end devices as well as high-end devices that meet the definition of a smartphone. Whether the owners of those devices use them as smartphones or even realize they are smartphones is debatable. Arguably, the third party development market indicates that iPhone owners use their phones more as smartphones.
What is interesting, though, is that with the iPad, Apple is attempting to create a new category of mobile device out of an old category of PC. Will Nokia compete in this category? If so, Maemo is the logical choice, given its roots in Internet tablets and more limited phone capabilities.
Seft wrote:Even including iPods and Macbooks I'm pretty sure that Nokia ships more devices and earns more revenue too. Is Apple basing their assertion on Market cap or, rather, enterprise value?
Last quarter, Apple had revenue of about $15.6 billion and Nokia about $10.1 billion. Obviously a lot of Apple's revenue is computer hardware and other non-mobile devices, but Nokia also has infrastructure revenue. Apple is the most profitable mobile phone maker. Nokia ships the most devices. As AAS points out, both are right.
Your figures are way off KPOM
KPOM wrote:"however, we sell more smartphones than Apple".True, but I think the difference here is that Apple deliberately doesn't compete at the low end of the market. They sell devices that compete in the upper N-series and E-series ranges, only (and don't make an artificial distinction between enterprise and consumer, but that's a different topic).
Whether Apple competes in a certain segment of the mobile market or not is irrelevant when figuring out who's the biggest. Both Nokia and Apple are in the business to make money, so the deciding factor has to be how much money is being made. How it is made is strategy, and the success of a business strategy is measured by how much money is being made using that strategy.
Currently Nokia has it on revenue, but as Apple's stock is worth more, investors currently expect Apple to win at the end. And they you can say that Nokia has already for a long time in the business so their past earnings must be added. Which is true for Apple too 😉. OTOH, the past is the past and that money is already taken. The question now is, do I buy Apple stock or Nokia stock?
As for "mobile devices," does the Nokia netbook count? If so, then perhaps so do MacBooks. Either way, from a market cap perspective, Apple is much bigger. Before iPhone was released, the two companies had similar market caps (with the edge to Nokia IIRC).Both RIM and Nokia make low-end devices as well as high-end devices that meet the definition of a smartphone. Whether the owners of those devices use them as smartphones or even realize they are smartphones is debatable. Arguably, the third party development market indicates that iPhone owners use their phones more as smartphones.
What is interesting, though, is that with the iPad, Apple is attempting to create a new category of mobile device out of an old category of PC. Will Nokia compete in this category? If so, Maemo is the logical choice, given its roots in Internet tablets and more limited phone capabilities.
For mobile computing devices, screen size is the discriminating factor because screen size determines portability. It either fits in your pocket, or it does not, and it has to be carried in a bag. Screen size is also the major factor in doing things comfortably, or with considerable hassle. Sometimes screens are just too small for what you want to do.
So the N900 isn't a competitor for the iPad because of it's screen size. The iPad competes directly with netbooks, including Nokia's netbook. Maemo will become a competitor as soon as there a device with a netbook-sized screen running Maemo.
The brand is on the device and the number of people carrying the brand is the difference.
Whether the object carrying the brand is "high end" or "medium" or what is irrelevant.
KPOM wrote:Last quarter, Apple had revenue of about $15.6 billion and Nokia about $10.1 billion. Obviously a lot of Apple's revenue is computer hardware and other non-mobile devices, but Nokia also has infrastructure revenue. Apple is the most profitable mobile phone maker. Nokia ships the most devices. As AAS points out, both are right.
Going from the most recent set of annual reports (I couldn't find segmentals in Apple's 10-Q)
Apple portable revenue (USDm): 9,472 for Portable Macs, 8,091 for iPods and 6,754 for iPhone == 24,317
Nokia Devices and Services (i.e. Excluding Navteq and Nokia Siemens) revenue (EURm): 27,853 ~ 38,000 USDm
Unless Nokia is earning €10bn from services, they are comfortably ahead.
EDIT: Found it:
Apple Q1 portable revenue (USDm): 2,758 + 3,391 + 5,578 == 11,727
Nokia Q1 Devices & Services (EURm): 8,179 ~ 11,300 USDm
Looks like you're right after all. Any idea whether Apple sales are more seasonal or is it just that iPhone growth is pushing Apple ahead?
Nokia counts Booklet in their mobile devices because they counted devices with a WAN wireless connection (so GSM/UMTS). OPK basically said this in his reported comments. So in their mind the only thing from Apple that counts is the iPhone. It seems that Apple counts anything you can physically pick up.
I like Nokia's definition better.
Seft wrote:Snipped...EDIT: Found it:
Apple Q1 portable revenue (USDm): 2,758 + 3,391 + 5,578 == 11,727
Nokia Q1 Devices & Services (EURm): 8,179 ~ 11,300 USDmLooks like you're right after all. Any idea whether Apple sales are more seasonal or is it just that iPhone growth is pushing Apple ahead?
Forgive me, I'm not sure I'm reading this correct..?
If the Nokia figures are in Euro (million) (unconverted first figure) to the Apple ones being in USD (millions), then Nokia STILL WIN...?
8,179 million EUROS, when I run it through various converters, comes in at 11,894 in USD (million).
(In other words, the REAL answer here is that depending on WHAT you use for your currency conversion site/tool, you can either show it truthfully either way, that Nokia have higher numbers, or that Apple have higher numbers.
The truth, as Steve says in his article, clearly really is somewhere in between.
That is, even for Q1 revenues, they are pretty much neck and neck, with Nokia holding their own fine.
HTH - it's not Apple knocking, or Fanboi defensiveness (for either company) - just pointing out that as the figures really are so close, you really CAN'T state one as being above the other, as Currency Conversion can always factually be used to show one higher than the other either way you want it to.
pointless willy waving.
Nokia has changed the landscape of the mobile industry, Apple has just made profit selling phones. I guess that sums it up.
I think it's time for Nokia to answer with a decent Maemo tablet, netbook and Laptop. Should be selling better than istuff.
Soo many more would love a desktop linux backed by Nokia.
why net a tablet, or net book with win7 with hard ware at par with industry standards, anything with window will sale 1000 times more than something in MAC, as you can't compare windows systems sale with mac ones.
Any ways i need successor of Nokia n95 8gb/n96, i mean slider with 2.8" screen, Symbian 3rd edition with cortex A8 and 256 RAM. Design of n86 is just fine.how many years i will have to wait for upgrade from nokia, can anyone tell me ?
Unregistered wrote:The brand is on the device and the number of people carrying the brand is the difference.
Whether the object carrying the brand is "high end" or "medium" or what is irrelevant.
very true, its common sense, but how you can expect Iphone users to have common sense lol 😃 if they had sense they could at least do multitasking in there life. 😃
Nokia sells mobile devices and thus is a mobile device company and Apple sells mobile devices and thus is a mobile device company. Apple is a bigger company therefore Apple is a bigger mobile device company.
patience wrote:Nokia sells mobile devices and thus is a mobile device company and Apple sells mobile devices and thus is a mobile device company. Apple is a bigger company therefore Apple is a bigger mobile device company.
Oversimplification.
<qoute>Nokia sells mobile devices and thus is a mobile device company and Apple sells mobile devices and thus is a mobile device company. Apple is a bigger company therefore Apple is a bigger mobile device company.</quote>
And by this definition they're both utterly annihilated by Samsung, which is actually the biggest *technology* company in the world. And since they too make mobile devices, they must be the biggest mobile device maker.