Microsoft and the temptaion to the dark side....

[quote="jpzr"][quote="MaleBuffy"]
the true is not everybody thinks that MMS is the best idea, some people think that sending pictures as email attachment is enough (and cheaper).[/quote]

Ehmm, could that be the same people tha thought that 640kbytes of RAM would be enough for PCs?

To be honest I can see a bit for MS favouring from you, but then I can see a bit of Symbian favouring from me! The only difference is that I dont have a site writing news about wireless devices 😊

Anyways, well done you do a great job but you cannot shoot me for disagreeing with you!

I think MMS wll become important, but only if it recieves support.

i.e. Microsoft not supporting it out of the box isn;t going to help

I wouldn't be suprised in Operators gets MS yto change their mind given that the main advantage of MMS is as a revenue stream builder.

It a similar situation to bluetooth (IIRC) that will go in eventually because it looks to my mind that bluetooth is going to make it (I'd have probably said the opposite 6 months ago).

On a seperate issue, yes we all biased to some extent. I know I've been acussed of beig rabidly pro-Symbian (and I hve the hate mail to prove it!). In the end it doesn't matter as long as people reaslise that no coverage can be completely bias free.

Rafe

-

i`ll pay them 100 Bucks to put on my 9210 MMS :evil: :P

Hi guys,

I cannot say much more because jpzr already told you everything about this event with 100% accuracy. This was a great event and I can only say that I wish you all were there, because only then you would understand how it was and what it was all about. Now I just want to post some replies to your posts.

First of all: not only My-Symbian (speaking of non-MS sites) was invited. There were some guys from Palm sites. People were using Apple notebooks. Some were proudly wearing caps with big "Nokia" logo. One of the keynote speakers was Doc Searls - quite famous guy in Linux world - editor of Linux Journal and author of The Cluetrain Manifesto. Microsoft showed us MS devices and system but were listening to all loud complaints and remarks. They were not afraid to introduce me as My-Symbian.com guy, talking about Linux etc. Two or three guys were using 9290s, 7650s, 7210s and even 3650. That was FAIR enough to write here about it.

I know that Microsoft people don't do all this just because they are nice. It is all about business and marketing. But it is about VERY GOOD business and VERY GOOD marketing. They understand that they won't make it without the community of users and publishers. This is why they want to provide them with all available information and also listen to all their remarks, suggestions and feedback. They want to make BUSINESS, but don't mind making the BUSINESS _WITH_ others. They know that good reviews and support from publishers and community influentials will HELP them, and they are open to HELP and SUPPORT publishers BACK. Pretty FAIR and pretty understandable - no reason to blame them for taking care of their own business as much as they can. BUT this is what Symbian and Nokia NEVER DO! Is it normal that Rafe doesn't have 9210 or 7650 (not to mention 3650) while putting this extremely big effort in running this site for so long time?! And we just attended one MS conference and got T-Mobile Phone Edition PPC and MS Smartphone is on the way.... Think and compare. Again: I know why Microsoft is doing all this, but I repeat: they simply do it DAMN GOOD. And what Nokia and Symbian does for the community can be only called: NOTHING AT ALL.... And the funniest thing is that such Nokia and Symbian attitude mainly hurts themselves in a long term.... Just think: I've been running my site for 3 years now with still the same lack of support. Same for Rafe. How long we can still take it? And if I drop My-Symbian and Rafe ever decides to close AllAboutER6.... what remains? Is Nokia and Symbian so blind that they don't see that they have just TWO serious and popular community sites and can lose them in the end? Will they then build a new one from the scratch? What for if they can just keep two existing, highly popular sites alive with quite small effort? Why they never did ANYTHING to inspire somebody to make a US-based Communicator site for 9290? That's why people in USA hardly know what 9290 is!! I have thousands of emails from people in my archive who write that they bought their 9210s or 7650s just after visiting my site... Is Nokia too poor to do things MS does? Give away two or three phones to the publishers, help webmasters with huge bandwith costs, invite them to a conference two or three times a year.... and last but not least: LISTEN to them as they are the voice of thousands of visitors?? I don't think so. So, why they don't do ANYTHING at ALL while Microsoft is trying to steal their people?

Just try and understand me: it was worth being at Mobius just to realize that one thing: how serious companies make their way to the market. How much they can do, how much effort they can put in promoting their products, 'capturing' people on their side etc. And the result is obvious: MS rules on this field. They always did. I simply cannot understand why Nokia and Symbian don't give a #$%^ about the community and independent sites. They don't own 100% of the market and have still to fight for it and the result is still unknown... How can they be so sure and so disrespectful for people who promote them as much as we do? Again: COMPARE! MS invites a Symbian guy just to listen to my opinions about their devices and is open to all my suggestions and feedback about their device, while Nokia doesn't care for opinions of THOUSANDS of people (YOU!!!) discussing on our forums about bugs, drawbacks and most desired improvements.... IS IT NORMAL???

Switchblade: if you think that just attending a MS conference, spending two nights in a good hotel and getting Pocket PC phone can change my opinions, likes and dislikes and push me in Microsoft arms, then sorry, but it seems that you consider me an idiot who can be bought with a piece of chocolate. Believe me, I am much smarter than you think and I am not 'for sale'. If I ever change my mind and switch to MS (or any other) devices, then it will be only when I feel that they are much better or when I simply have enough of Nokia's and Symbian's disregard to their most devoted sites, the community and all their customers. And I don't know when it is going to happen. Maybe soon. Even I can finally loose all the zeal when treated this way (or rather: not treated at all).

What I think about MS phones/PDAs? The Phone Edition has still a long way to go when it comes to phone/Internet support and integration. But the core hardware is better than in Symbian devices: much faster CPUs, stereo sound, 3D acceleration, fast and huge memory, support for SDIO cards and not archaic MMCs or slow and non-standard MemSticks2... It is quite similiar with smartphones, although I don't want to judge them before getting one and playing with it for some hours. It looks like SymbianOS is still much better but cannot spread its wings dragged down by obsolete, always one-year-behind hardware. From the other side, PocketPC is still worse, but gets a big boost from faster and more modern CPU/memory architecture.... That's the way it is.

Switchblade again: "almost all the major phone manufacturers are making Symbian based smartphones instead of M$".... Well, it seems that things are changing.... What can you say about Psion (owning 21% of Symbian), who just introduced entire line of MS based products? Read here: http://www.theregus.com/content/54/26590.html.
Maybe it still looks different here in Europe, but the situation is entirely different in USA. MS devices get more and more popular and become a real cometition to PalmOS devices. And Symbian OS in USA doesn't count at all. It simply doesn't exist there. Don't disregard US market. Maybe wireless networks in USA are far behind Europe, but they quickly get stronger and there is a huge amount of money put in them right now. Americans (250 million or so) will soon become quite an important market for smartphones and connected PDAs. But still not for Symbian, who don't do anything at all on this market....

jmas: Yes, there were some working MS Smartphone units on Mobius. All attendees will get them in a month or so.

eidirian: If you want me to be really objective about Symbian, don't you think that I should know other systems: Palm and PPC? How can I honestly say that Symbian is THE BEST if I know little about other systems? That's why I went to Mobius: to familiarize with MS devices. To be fully conscious what is better and what is worse. Only NOW as I have PPC in my hand I can say that I can be fully objective.

MaleBuffy: you seem to be the guy who hates anything about Microsoft just because it is Microsoft... You haven't even seen the Smartphone but you judge it and say that it has no potential. As for the size: yes, it is 10% longer, but 300% thinner... It is going to be as 'long' as 3650, but still much thinner. Sorry, this was just a reply to all your quotation and exclamation marks. Way to much emotions. Cool down.
And I am not going to say anything about the smartphone before I get it. Playing with it a couple of minutes at the conference is not enough for me to judge it.

Upponalle: Maybe you're right about potential security issues of Internet Explorer in MS Smartphone... But... don't you think having WWW browser requiring patches is all better than not having it at all (7650, 3650)? Just to be objective, again. Will you put Opera browser in your 7650? At what cost? At cost of loosing 30 or 40 percent of 7650's storage memory? WHY did Nokia equip 7650 with ridiculous 4 MB of storage space? To leave a field for new models? Why didn't they implement 9210's browser to work in 7650? For the very same reason? Think.

MaleBuffy: "You cannot compare the still-in-development mobile phones of Microsoft to the already-established mobile phones of Nokia and co. " Yes, you can. That's because MS Smartphone is compatible with PPC in a huge degree. Ie. most of the APIs remain the same and porting the software only requires changing the UI and recompiling. It can be done in HOURS. MS showed us a couple of programs running on a new iPAQ and MS Smartphone. Looked the same, with identical performance. And don't forget that Nokia also doesn't do much about compatibility. Next Communicator will be equipped with Series90 user interface, which means only one thing: NO .APP compatibility at all. All software will have to be redesigned for new user interface. Well, same as for Pocket PC -> MS Smartphone. Again, just to be objective.

MaleBuffy: "Do you think that networks buy expensive MMS hardware to NOT use it????" MMS functionality can be added via software, which is ready and can be bundled with smartphones and Phone Edition PPCs by MMS-enabled vendors. From the other side, networks without MMS support (eg current USA carriers) can sell them without MMS SW, thus cheaper.

My full report from Mobius will be available at My-Symbian.com in one or two days.

Once again: please, don't judge me just for attending MS conference. I want to know what's up in wireless world. Not only from Symbian side. To be able to objectively compare and value things. If I ever have such oportunity in the future, I will do it again. Not only MS, but also Palm or any other.

And I think some of you guys should be more objective, too. It is obvious that MS wants us to make business. But it is NORMAL. What is ABNORMAL is that Nokia and Symbian don't do this AT ALL!

Why Microsoft provide us with their new, not released yet product and asks us for feedback while Nokia keeps their forthcoming Series90 Symbian 7.0, 640x320 touchscreen Communicator (yes, I had to go to Microsoft Mobius to learn about it!!!!!!!!) TOP SECRET - as always? Why don't they care for asking us (having contact with thousands of current communicators' users) about any suggestions or feedback? If I can tell some good words about Microsoft, then I can surely say that I would LOVE Nokia and Symbian to act the way Microsoft does. This would make Symbian much stronger. But it's only a dream that will never come true.

PS. Some of you guys write M$ for Microsoft. I understand that it stands for money. Well, I think we should also write Nok"i"a - with the "i" accented. This will stand for "i" models which are also meant to scrounge money off poor users of non-"i" models just a couple of months after they are released... For the third and last time: just to be objective.

Dear Michael,

thank you for this long post, very informative thanx again.

just get some things straight, because I think that you are over-reacting!

"MaleBuffy: you seem to be the guy who hates anything about Microsoft just because it is Microsoft... You haven't even seen the Smartphone but you judge it and say that it has no potential. As for the size: yes, it is 10% longer, but 300% thinner... It is going to be as 'long' as 3650, but still much thinner. Sorry, this was just a reply to all your quotation and exclamation marks. Way to much emotions. Cool down.
And I am not going to say anything about the smartphone before I get it. Playing with it a couple of minutes at the conference is not enough for me to judge it."

First of all let me say that you are wrong about me! I don't hate M$, I am one of the ppl that believe that M$ has developed usefull technologies. FYI I am pro-ASP and not PHP! I use IE and think its the best out there and WIN XP as my OS that I really love even though other OSes might be faster and more secure.

As for the size I think you are a bit over-estimating the difference, Its not 300% maybe 2 times bigger but not 300%

Something that you said that I really did not understand is

"Sorry, this was just a reply to all your quotation and exclamation marks. Way to much emotions. Cool down. "

Way to much emotions? Why? What did I say?

In one point of your post you discribe the hardware of the new M$ phone, comparing it with current ones. Its simple, M$ phones are not out right now meaning that when they will they will be better than redundant 7650 and P800 etc. but then after a while there will be better phones from NOKIA and others as well!

I might me Homo Nokius but if something gets on my nervers I can change my opinion on NOKIA just as easy I can change religion. I belive only what I see, and at the time I see a 9210, 7650 and once a P800. Nothing else exists for me becasue I am a consumer and not a researcher.

Thank you again for your post, I think you did a good job by attending the MS conference, try to be objective and good luck with whatever you do. 😊

Since you all talk about M$,
In my opinion,
UI is the key factor to attarct user,
when device getting more powerful,
Symbian will be eventually replace by MS Smartphone OS.
The UI of SYmbian is damn poor compare to MS.
As a developer, you can do a lot creative job on MS but not SYmbian.

But I heard that Apple also interested on Smartphone Device,
I think they will eventually come out an iMac for Smartphone.
On the time, Symbian will be out.
To be , Symbian is good at stablability,less resource consumed & open framework but now......... :cry:
You can see the that 7650 crash,9210 crash, & the source is closed.
Most important is poor support & close data format which I see thay live in their own world.

I still see that the UI is Key factor to a succeed of an OS.
Like MS rule the desktop & Apple rule the graphical-designer world.
Remember, smartphone is a user platform & not a server.

Hopeless Symbian.

Michael,

Firstly, welcome to AAE6, it's nice to have you here.

I want to comment primarily on the issues of Developer Support from Symbian and Nokia - other points raised I'll leave to the wolves.

You may or may not have followed previous threads where I discussed a meeting that was set up between myself and members of the Symbian Management to discuss (mainly) the relevance of the Hobby Developer, but we touched on oher areas, including where they felt Symbian was placed at the moment, and the distribution of their resources.

My impression was that Symbian has had quite a lot of internaldifficulties that any new company would have (being a division of Psion isn;t the same as being a standalone company). They have had to be very frugal with resources, in both money and employees. It seemed to me that they have realised they needed to rationalise what they were doing as a company.

This isn't an apology, and they are aware that support in the past has had to been concentrated on 'larger' organisations. I'm pretty confident that they are aware of 'the little people' and the importance they have on the survival of the OS in tomorrows competitive market.

All this is complicated by the fact that there is a clear dividing line between software (Symbian) and hardware (Nokia, et all) - and getting sdisparate groups of managers to agree on somethign is very difficult. Go read some Dilbert if you don't believe me.

My opinion is that Symbian have around 6 months to capture the market, or at least enough of a community to survive. By that point, the core of the nutters should be in place, or as you rightly say, it will only take two people (you and Rafe) to call in quits and there will be a serious lack of web presence.

I know there are a number of people from Nokia, SE, Symbian and the likes who browse into AAE6, and I hope they read the above and take it seriously. Symbian is a nice OS, but then again, 8 Track was a nice idea. As was Phillips Video 2000. And the Apple Newton...

Let me put it straight:

What are you talking mainly? Phones or OS.

Because when ew are talking about phones-Nokia is the leader
Talking OS-Software PC Microsoft rules
Phones Symbian Rules

I understand that M$ wants to enter on the market. Will they produce a MS Phone 😃

That`s what I wanted to point at you.

And one more thing

I have joined this community when I had the 9210 not before.

This means consumer will manifest interest only for the devices they posess. Now think about US Market. May be MySymbyan was right.

Anyhow, great topic.

[quote="bin machine"]Since you all talk about M$,
In my opinion,
UI is the key factor to attarct user,
when device getting more powerful,
Symbian will be eventually replace by MS Smartphone OS.
The UI of SYmbian is damn poor compare to MS.
As a developer, you can do a lot creative job on MS but not SYmbian.[/quote]

I'm not sure where you get your ideas about the UI from. One of the strengths of Symbian has been the UI's. People I've spoken too tned to say how nice the 7650 UI is. The 92x0 interface is not what a lot of people expect (people coming up from EIKON especially), but it is IMHO a good UI. In addition Symbian give handset producers the choice to run their own UI (a la Series 60) and this is going to be a big advnatge over an imposed from the top Microsoft UI - which is a UI whatever people may say that has a legacy from Windows rather than being specifically a smartphone UI.

Development for Symbian is often criticised as being harder or more difficult. I don't accpet this the Symbian operating system is far more elegant and developers can get insode it much more easily that the equivalent MS OS.

[quote="bin machine"]But I heard that Apple also interested on Smartphone Device, I think they will eventually come out an iMac for Smartphone. On the time, Symbian will be out.[/quote]

I very much doubt Apple would go with an MS smartphone. They recognise that nearly all the handset producers are behind Symbian. That industry support will probably be the key for Symbian. Micorsoft will never be able to shift the same number of units as the big handset manufacturers no matter what.

Just as an aside the so called iPhone has been linked with the P800 with some saying delays in release (aside from technical) are also because SE are in negotiations with Apple.

[quote="bin machine"]To be , Symbian is good at stablability,less resource consumed & open framework but now......... :cry:
You can see the that 7650 crash,9210 crash, & the source is closed.
Most important is poor support & close data format which I see thay live in their own world.[/quote]

Firstly you correctly point out Symbian has good stability and less resources consumed. Thats the result of better OS design. The open framework / standards is a real plus because it allows interoperability not seen on phone before.

You criticise the 7650 as crashing - well yes some early models were prone, but as I understand it so are most Microsft PPC and Smartphones. The 7650 is an existing, already released and established smartphone - you can not say that about the MS smartphone(s). We heard about the Sendo Z100 before the 7650 and still no sign of that phone.. hmmm... The 9210 was buggy to start with, but thats been fixed by firmware upgrades. As I understand it the instability is not in the OS, but rather in the integration between the phone components/hradware and the OS.

The problem with some of the Symbian products is the questionable of user memory. This is a handset i.e. Nokia issue not a Symbian issue. Symbian dont say you must have at least this much because they are an open and non restrictive company in terms of OS liscensing.

The Symbian OS source is far more open than any other commercial OS in the world. There's a special program to let developers into the source. In addition the already mentioned development style is such that hooking into the OS (a major reason for open source) is easy and doesn't need source. You say Symbian is closed, but I don't see how that is different to anyone else. Symbian has a far more open standard / open source approach than say Microsoft (or indeed others).

[quote="bin machine"]I still see that the UI is Key factor to a succeed of an OS. Like MS rule the desktop & Apple rule the graphical-designer world. Remember, smartphone is a user platform & not a server.
Hopeless Symbian.[/quote]

Thats why Symbian will rule the smartphone world, they are a smatphone OS company and they are the best at what they do (you suggested this when saying the OS was more resource friendly and stable). Symbian will sucede because it specialises in what it does, and because it has industry support. Microsoft is of course keen to get into this area because they realise as everyone else does that OS shipments for phones will probably overtake PC OS shipments in the next 5 years.

Rafe
Of couse this is just my opinion. I don't know everything 😊

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]
Switchblade: if you think that just attending a MS conference, spending two nights in a good hotel and getting Pocket PC phone can change my opinions, likes and dislikes and push me in Microsoft arms, then sorry, but it seems that you consider me an idiot who can be bought with a piece of chocolate. Believe me, I am much smarter than you think and I am not 'for sale'. If I ever change my mind and switch to MS (or any other) devices, then it will be only when I feel that they are much better or when I simply have enough of Nokia's and Symbian's disregard to their most devoted sites, the community and all their customers. And I don't know when it is going to happen. Maybe soon. Even I can finally loose all the zeal when treated this way (or rather: not treated at all).
[/quote]

I didn't, and if you read my post, say that. I was pointing out that they'd have to go some to persuade people like yourselves to change. Seems you've got completely the wrong end of the stick (and that stick smells funky).

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]First of all: not only My-Symbian (speaking of non-MS sites) was invited. There were some guys from Palm sites. People were using Apple notebooks. Some were proudly wearing caps with big "Nokia" logo. One of the keynote speakers was Doc Searls - quite famous guy in Linux world - editor of Linux Journal and author of The Cluetrain Manifesto. Microsoft showed us MS devices and system but were listening to all loud complaints and remarks. They were not afraid to introduce me as My-Symbian.com guy, talking about Linux etc. Two or three guys were using 9290s, 7650s, 7210s and even 3650. That was FAIR enough to write here about it. [/quote]

First I'd just like to say thanks to Michal for taking the time to post this. Its great to get an insiders view of Mobius from a Symbian persepctive even if it a bit depressing. Its interesting that at such a conference people (not just you) were using Symbian OS stuff - I assume this means that at least some of the cover all sites had some Symbian fans.

[quote="My-Symbian.com"] Pretty FAIR and pretty understandable - no reason to blame them for taking care of their own business as much as they can. BUT this is what Symbian and Nokia NEVER DO! Is it normal that Rafe doesn't have 9210 or 7650 (not to mention 3650) while putting this extremely big effort in running this site for so long time?! And we just attended one MS conference and got T-Mobile Phone Edition PPC and MS Smartphone is on the way.... Think and compare. Again: I know why Microsoft is doing all this, but I repeat: they simply do it DAMN GOOD. And what Nokia and Symbian does for the community can be only called: NOTHING AT ALL.... And the funniest thing is that such Nokia and Symbian attitude mainly hurts themselves in a long term....[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. MS are doign the right thing in trying to get people's views and opinions. They're doing it for themselves, but it is good practise and good for us too I guess. I think part of the problem is Symbian is a smaller company (much smaller) and probably doesn't have the resources to do this kind of thing. That said someone should tell Nokia / SE to do something like this, or at least try and be a bit more in touch with the community.

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]Just think: I've been running my site for 3 years now with still the same lack of support. Same for Rafe. How long we can still take it? And if I drop My-Symbian and Rafe ever decides to close AllAboutER6.... what remains? Is Nokia and Symbian so blind that they don't see that they have just TWO serious and popular community sites and can lose them in the end? Will they then build a new one from the scratch? What for if they can just keep two existing, highly popular sites alive with quite small effort?[/quote]
I'm sure Michal is in the same position as I am. I am quite well aware Nokia / SE / Symbian people read the site (we can both read sever logs afterall!), but for my part at least I have had fairly minimal contact with Symbian as a company (even less with Nokia). Whatever people might say the two sites do help make people buy Nokia / Symbian devices and arguable more important provide support. Ask yourself this - how many people have you shown your phone off too and maybe got them interested - would this be the same number if there wasn;t such an active web community - I don't think so. I'm sure that between My-Symbian and AAER6 many people have been persuaded of the merits. It does get lonely being a Symbian site at times. Basically there are two english langauge ones and thats it (german aikon,ch is great too). I do this because I'm a Symbian fan (having come from the Psions in contrast to michal who I think I'm right in saying came from the Nokia Communicator side) and because I do have the time to do it.

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]My full report from Mobius will be available at My-Symbian.com in one or two days. [/quote]
I look forward to seeing that 😊

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]Once again: please, don't judge me just for attending MS conference. I want to know what's up in wireless world. Not only from Symbian side. To be able to objectively compare and value things. If I ever have such oportunity in the future, I will do it again. Not only MS, but also Palm or any other. [/quote]

Yep me too. I think Michal has done a great job reporting back and I'm sure he was showing of his Symbian bits at Mobius.

I hope Ewan is right and that Symbian are listening (I think personally that they are, but they are always going to have the problem of effectively being a multi-company organisation when it comes to the devices). For me I'll keep plodding along and keep waffling - I hope that at least some of you stay with me!

Rafe

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]
Upponalle: Maybe you're right about potential security issues of Internet Explorer in MS Smartphone... But... don't you think having WWW browser requiring patches is all better than not having it at all (7650, 3650)? Just to be objective, again. Will you put Opera browser in your 7650? At what cost? At cost of loosing 30 or 40 percent of 7650's storage memory? WHY did Nokia equip 7650 with ridiculous 4 MB of storage space? To leave a field for new models? Why didn't they implement 9210's browser to work in 7650? For the very same reason? Think.
[/quote]
Thanks Michael for your interesting report about the Mobius meeting. After the reading I understand the motives that MS had with this conference. But do you really think they will keep asking about your opinion in the future? If they do and listen, then this is definitely much better than Nokia, but wait and see what is happening.

The reason why I wrote my comment about MS IE is very simple. In my mind (maybe that was not very clear) I was comparing the browsers of the 92x0s and MS IE Phone Edition. And even if Symbian's own browser is not really usable, there is still Opera. And I haven't heard of any Opera patches for ER5 or ER6 to increase security and similar things, whereas MS IE Pocket Edition is not really better than the PC version in that sense. Phones like Nokia's 7650 andd 3650 don't really need a browser in my mind, because they are "MMS Phones"! And that is the reason why there is no browser. Nokia wants to be ahead in the messaging market (especially MMS) of SonyEricsson. And I think you are aware of the way Nokia is marketing the 7650 at the moment. If, from the consumer perspective, MS "makes" realiable, usable products that are able to compete with current Nokia 92x0s and its successors, then I will have a look at them to make up my mind, but at the moment these MS products do not exsist yet!

I 'm sorry Michal, but I'm still suspicious about Microsofts true intentions from this meeting.

Microsoft are in a very weak position with its Smartphone OS. It's very worried about this and will do anything to change it. They would love sites like yours to suddenly change allegiance or at least start covering their OS devices as well. Its all very well to say Symbian have no presence in the US but there are no Microsoft Smartphones anywhere. I agree Nokia should have released a Series 60 phone in the states by now but I'm sure they have their reasons and future marketing stratagy worked out. I'm not even sure how relevant the OS of a smartphone is to the general public. I bet a lot of 7650 owners don't know or care that its a Series 60 device running the Symbian OS.

Have you considered how much money Microsoft has just spent on you. Flights, accommodation, hospitality not to mention the value of the hardware and other goodies you received. The true cost to Microsoft (including their staff costs) is, shall we guess about $5,000 per head (Its probably not far off the mark). With 20+ people attending that puts the total cost at about $100,000. Now to a company like Symbian that would be a large sum of money, to Microsoft its peanuts. I suppose a Nokia could do it, but they probably don't feel they need to, as they are in a dominant position and are selling lots of 7650's anyway.

I'm not saying that when offered great freebies you should turn them down. I'd certainly go but treat it with a large dose of scepticism, no matter how cuddly they seemed and how valued they made you feel 😉 After all its their job to do this.

What you need to ask yourself is would Microsoft be offering you trips like you've just been on, if they were the market leaders in the Smartphone market and had all the major manufacturers on board?

Langdona: "I 'm sorry Michal, but I'm still suspicious about Microsofts true intentions from this meeting. "

Hi,

I thought I already explained my feelings about this. Microsoft true intentions are obvious for me!! They want to promote their products and capture publishers/webmasters on their side! That's simple and obvious! And that's their right to do so. And my right/duty is to be conscious and cautious...

But I knew that. I just came there to learn more about MS Smartphones and Phone Edition PPCs, because I am interested in wireless market, not only Symbian. That's all. I was a Symbian fan and I am still a Symbian fan. No matter what Microsoft wants. As I already said: I am not that easy to change and I am not 'for sale' (at least that cheap).... They'll have to put much bigger effort to see some serious results 😉

What impressed me was that they do it in such a good way, with great style. Or maybe even that they do anything at all (speaking of community and webmasters), which can also be quite impressive for people used to Nokia way of marketing and customer support ("Neglecting people"😉. Yes, you're right. Nokia doesn't do anything because they are on top. But how about Sony Ericsson? How about Siemens just entering Symbian market? Low market share, lot to do.... Still nothing done. Langdona, maybe Microsoft spent $100.000, but they invited 26 sites. How about SonyEricsson spending ten times less - $10.000 in total on two or three Symbian sites? Quite enough for the beginning. Three known Symbian sites promoting their products... Is $10.000 too much for a company like SonyEricsson? I don't think so. And I don't mean giving us the money - I mean providing us with phones and accessories, so that we can make reviews, screenshots for applications etc. and simply get to know them better, eg. helping us with bandwith/hosting costs etc. Is that too much for them? Again: I don't think so. I rather think that they still don't understand what a site like My-Symbian.com or AllAboutER6 can give them. They spend much bigger amounts on stupid competitions, free cinema tickets (quite popular in Polish Club Nokia) etc. etc.

Do you know why I still don't have P-800 section? Just because I don't have P-800 and it seems that I won't be able to get it for quite some time. Phones always come to Poland with 2-3 month delay because of some stupid procedures.... And I don't feel like spending 1000 Euro or so just to provide Sony Ericsson with my free promotion if they don't give a #$%^ about me... If I had one from Sony Ericsson, I would have P-800 section alive and kicking maybe for a couple of months... But they don't care - totally UNLIKE Microsoft. And it is simply worth mentioning. So... Microsoft intentions are to promote their products and have as many friendly web sites as possible. And it is GOOD for THEM. Nokia/SE/Siemens/Symbian don't show any signs of such intentions and it is very BAD for THEM, but unfortunately also for US....

[quote="My-Symbian.com"]Do you know why I still don't have P-800 section? Just because I don't have P-800 and it seems that I won't be able to get it for quite some time. Phones always come to Poland with 2-3 month delay because of some stupid procedures.... And I don't feel like spending 1000 Euro or so just to provide Sony Ericsson with my free promotion if they don't give a #$%^ about me... If I had one from Sony Ericsson, I would have P-800 section alive and kicking maybe for a couple of months... But they don't care - totally UNLIKE Microsoft. And it is simply worth mentioning. So... Microsoft intentions are to promote their products and have as many friendly web sites as possible. And it is GOOD for THEM. Nokia/SE/Siemens/Symbian don't show any signs of such intentions and it is very BAD for THEM, but unfortunately also for US....[/quote]

Sorry, of course their intentions are to sell the idea of their OS in mobile devices. That goes without saying but I do question why they are focussing on non Microsoft specific web sites at this time. As I say I think its because they are in a weak position at the moment and are prepared to go down any avenues to and pay any money to get any support they can. I very much doubt if they would have provided this trip and given you all these freebees if they were in a dominant position in the market. In fact they probaby couldn't care less about you.

You say your too intellegent to be taken in by Microsoft but you sound like you have been. They take you on one trip and you are saying how great they are and how bad Symbian and it device manufacturers are for not giving you the same treatment. I'm personally appalled be your comments anout SE and the P800, here and on your site you have complained bitterly about them not giving you a free machine. The machine has not even been released yet! Its unlikely that they would want to give out review models before the final version so its not surprising you have not got one. I doubt if they will after your negative comments about them. It sounds to me like you expect to recieve free hardware for running your site but they can't do that. If they did I'd start a new Symbian site tomorrow then another for Aston Martins the next. As I said Microsoft is the richest company in the world. They can afford to spend money on people like you without even thinking about it. They probably have some of the best sales people/psycologists in the world they are designed to make Microsoft sound great and wonderful.

Remember the main mobile phone manufacturesrs have gone down the Symbian route mainly because they don't trust Microsoft and don't want them to have a major influence in their industry. They've had all the same sales flannel that you've just had but they could see through it.

I`ll get down with another question.

But first, "The child who does not cry or scream, will die starving"

I did not know that Rafe or His Symbian guy does not have proper equipment to review or test. Now the topic is clear to me.

All the basic ideeas goes to the lack of support from phone producers and symbian.

Did any of you forwarded topics or links to their marketing departments?

In my opinion, someone who ownes a sites (Where is Rafe?) can put to the producers table useful information about what consumers really needs and what they expect from them.

Also supporting with products for free i`m 1000% shure that they will do it. Just let them know.

As for M$, are you blaming them for being marget incisive? Or doing their business right?

As my symbian guy let us know, each person has its price. Isin,t it?

As a newbie, I started to uinderstand things different than from the user point of view.

So, the goods are there, Go For It. Stop complaining.

For the developer part.. I am not able to post anything.

Read Ya!

To stick my oar in once more, following on from the free handsets idea. I'd have thought that M. Jerz and Rafe would have seen pre-release P800s, 7650s, even 3650s, even for a couple of weeks/a month in the same way that other sites get them to test and review. Unless I'm insane the poll on the front page shows how popular this site is: "500+ votes from 9210 owners, 700+ from 7650 owners.". Now ok you could argue what's the point in letting these people test review handsets for people who already have the devices? To which the arguement is that if you want information about something (i.e. you want an idea what the 3650) is like would you go to a retailers website (where all phones are great) or to a site like this where you can find a review.

I bought my 9210 before finding these site (not long before) and found the short reviews on here actually helped me getting started with it. These reviews were done, again, by people who paid for the handset before hand. Now it's not just reviewers/small sites who don't get free handsets (to keep or test), I don't recall hearing much about free handsets being given to programmers to help them making their apps etc. The Nokia 9210 is the best selling PDA of the last 2 years, yet if you look for 9210 sites on the net you wouldn't have thought so. Is it support from Nokia or something else..... I can feel a rant coming on......

To finish (before I get started) a main issue with a site like this, the site is geared towards Symbian before Nokia/SE/etc so one would assume the phone manufaturers would expect Symbian to furnish them with devices, that said Symbian don't have the cash lying round to do this unlike the handset manufacturers...... vicious circle anyone?

I'm not against sites like this and my-communicator getting free or trial machines. I think Rafe should get access to review machines and it would be nice if the occasional manufacturer let him keep one 😊

Rafe, have you asked for a review machine from Nokia or SE?

I don't know if review P800's have been isssued to anyone yet? I think some magazines have been given previews of the device but have they got the final version?

Its just that I don't think that Rafe would deliberately report against a machine or manufacturor who did not supply him with a device. Of course he could not give as much information about a device he has not used or owned. 😉

Also I'm not saying Microsoft is wrong in holding a conference for advetising its wares. I just doubt that Symbian could afford to do the same, so its unfair to judge them in the same light.

PDA Geek has an article about mobius. At the end it lists all the freebies they got or will get. Its quite a list 😮

Let.s stick also to the topic.

Why it is not Symbian supporting those sites? This is the big Q.

Regarding all the developers I just put an "outsider question". In witch language is better for you to develop software S or M$?
{Not to be here...Will I pay more for M$ on my future phone :evil: :roll: }

Where is the dark side?

That it is for now.

-

jpzr: Why is it that the arguments you post here are the opposite to some of the your arguments I have read on other sites?

Langdona: "I very much doubt if they would have provided this trip and given you all these freebees if they were in a dominant position in the market."

AFAIK this was already third or fourth Mobius. They make it two times a year - in Redmond and in Germany.

And I don't think that MS is in a weak position. Look at PocketPC market. Thousands of apps. Many different devices - iPAQs, HPs, Toshibas, Siemens, Casios.... even Psions!! Phone Editon is fully compatible and lets the user use all existing PPC software. Thousands - tens of times more than existing Symbian apps. And MS Smartphone is also compatible. The only difference is the UI - pretty easy to redesign and recompile. I think MS is in much better position with PPC than Sony Ericsson with P-800 (no software at all, strong competition etc.). And MS still does much, while SE does nothing.

"In fact they probaby couldn't care less about you. "

Sure. So what? I don't work for them. They invited me and so I decided to go. If they didn't, I wouldn't go and surely wouldn't shed a tear over it. That's all... What's the problem here?

It looks quite different with Symbian manufacturers. We have been doing some good things on these sites for them for years, and they couldn't care less... That's the difference.

"You say your too intellegent to be taken in by Microsoft but you sound like you have been. They take you on one trip and you are saying how great they are and how bad Symbian and it device manufacturers are for not giving you the same treatment."

Because it is true! I had been always saying that Symbian/Nokia attitute to a community is bad (if existing at all), long before visiting Mobius. It changed nothing. Why do I say that Mobius was great? Because it was. I think I simply OWE them being true about this. I think I'd be a damn liar if I told you that it wasn't good. And that's all. Do you think that Microsoft wanted me to just say that they provided me with a great weekend? I think they wanted much more. To be fully objective I have to say that American food is tasteless and SAS airlines suck because you can't smoke for 11 hours.

"I'm personally appalled be your comments anout SE and the P800, here and on your site you have complained bitterly about them not giving you a free machine. The machine has not even been released yet!"

Ha, ha, ha! You can buy tens of P-800s in places like eBay or on Polish auction portal Allegro. I've seen first almost half a year ago! I know 3 people in Poland who HAVE P-800! So it seems they exist and S-E gives them to some people. The problem is that they give it to WRONG people. They prefer some assholes who then sell them on auctions, and not sites which can provide them with good promotion.

Speaking of P-800 and my bitter comments: they were mainly about crappy marketing, huge delays and demanding 1000 USD for SDKs. It seems that my comments were true, because SE started offering their SDK for free lately, so now developers already owning Visual C++ (majority of 9210 and 7650 C++ programmers) don't have to spend money on CodeWarrior.

"Its unlikely that they would want to give out review models before the final version so its not surprising you have not got one."

Well, Microsoft don't mind providing people with early versions. First PocketPCs Phone Edition were given away to people on last year's Mobius. We will get MS Smartphone in a couple of weeks.... So, it is unlikely only in case of SOME companies.

BTW. Ever heard of NDA? By signing it you can get a proto to familiarize with the device, so that you can start your publications when it comes out, but already knowing it in a huge degree. Serious companies provide such possibility. Even Nokia, but not SE.

"I doubt if they will after your negative comments about them."

SERIOUS company would make something to change negative comments to positive ones when it comes to a site with over 120.000 visitors each month. Sulking and getting offended is far from being professional. If they read my comments, they could at least ask "Why are you such a pain in the ass?". But they don't care at all. My duty is to be objective and not to lick SonyEricsson's ass just to get a device from them. It is THEM who should be interested in a good press - 120.000 visitors is comparable to edition of a paper magazine. And if they keep neglecting me, my comments surely won't get much better... I don't think that Sony Ericsson's market position is too good to care about such a cheap promotion they could get on our sites if they did anything.

"As I said Microsoft is the richest company in the world. "

If you think that giving away one device to webmaster of a site with 120.000 visitors a month requires being the richiest company in the world, then sorry but I cannot agree with you. Especially that there are three serious Symbian sites and not thousands. Three devices.... what a big deal! I think Microsoft invited me just because they consider my site influential with such a number of visitors. It seems that for Sony Ericsson 120.000 visitors is a piece of cake, not worth any effort. Even Siemens contacted me about 2 weeks ago asking if they can add a link to me on their Series 60 developers pages. But NOT SE. Never. Even though they are in Symbian business so much longer than Siemens.

And I think that providing a free device is really not a big deal for a company like Sony Ericsson, while spending 1000 Euro for such device is a pretty big expense for an individual like me or Rafe. If it wasn't, I would buy a proto on Ebay or Allegro quite a long time ago and never want anything from them.

"Did any of you forwarded topics or links to their marketing departments?"

Yes, I was trying to contact SE through Symbian. A Symbian employee was asking SE ambassador at Symbian for a device for me. Results? None. Pity.

Have u ever though about why Nokia is the leader in the mobile phone market? Are u so naive to think that a operating system will change the purchasing pattern of consumers all over the world? Do u know the term "Homo Nokius"? Do you know what it means? My GF bought the 7650 and she does not give a fuck what OS the phone is running! She bought it and not the t68i because it is a NOKIA! I am not saying this is the right thing to do, but its the thing most ppl in the world do, except some of us geeks who actually know what we posses!

Reasons why the MS Smartphone will not sell (the one in the pic)

1. Its ugly! You have to admit its like an old generation Motorola phone for the US market like the ones they use in low budget movies!

2. Who manufactured it? Texas Instruments? Didn't they have BIG problems keeping their company together? I never heared anyone say "Did you see the new phone from TI?" What do they know about mobile phones?

3. U webmasters (my-symbian.com) and (wirelesssoftware.info) have mentioned that Nokia did not have a web browser installed and that we needed to purchase 3rd party software! Isn't that the case with the MS Smartphone and MMS?

4. Would you actually buy such an ugly phone? Honestly! 😃

Rafe,
May be you are right, I hope that Symbian will continue their best.
About UI, I wish that all the device maker be more creative.
But I doubt that, coz all of them is using Series60. To me this limit themselves already.
I am not the expert in wireless world but as a phone user.
I feel that it is a shit.
If user got their choice, I doubt Symbian will be the best still?
I am a developer & I hope that the mobile-world is filled with all sort of great design, great idea, great creativity.
To me, Symbian is accept by the user is just because we as a user got no choice & Symbian is backed by all the device maker.
I am not support anyone,
I just want it to be a wonderful world,
I hope that in future,there will be smartphone running by SYmbian, Micosoft, Apple, Palm, Linux? & many many more 😃
So that the winner is always the user.
Tech is to serve all user. 8)

It is sad to see that the future the Symbian only.
If so , means that mobile world is still not developed enough yet.
So sad that I am still living in the stone-world of mobile world.so sad.

>> Have u ever though about why Nokia is the leader in the mobile
>> phone market?"

Don't you see any difference between mobile phone and PDA / smartphone? We are not talking about simple phones here.

Customer buys mobile phone and that's it. No software, no special configuration, no useful tips. Mobile phone is meant for CALLING and doesn't need anything to do it. And yes, Nokia is very strong when it comes to PHONES.

If you buy PDA or smartphone, you usually want it to install applications, games, and DO some more with it besides calling. If so, you usually do some research about how popular the OS is and how many apps there are.

>> My GF bought the 7650 and she does not give a fuck what OS the
>> phone is running!"

I think your GF doesn't give a *** about OS, because she hardly knows what OS is. Exactly as I don't give a **** about what kind of mechanism is in my toilet cistern because I only use it to flush the toilet bowl. Your GF only uses her 7650 as a phone (+ camera) and nothing besides. Her knowledge on this field is most probably limited to whether "menu" is nice and functional or not. She wants to call her friends and send them a message and not run Ximplify SeleQ or ZipMan in it. But majority of other smartphone users want to install games and applications in it. You know, there is an online shop on my site and there are thousands of orders for 7650 apps and games each month. Although I don't think your girlfriend bought any program there, other people buy TONS of software. And they DO CARE about OS and how many applications are available. So your GF doesn't seem to be a typical and most representative 7650 user.

>> She bought it and not the t68i because it is a NOKIA!

I thought we are talking about more aware smartphone/PDA users here. She might as well buy it because it was silver-green, but it has nothing common with current topic. Sorry, no offense, just an example.

>> 1. Its ugly!

It is quite nice. I've seen it in real and not on a picture. The only thing I don't like is its external aerial. De gustibus non disputandum est.

>> Who manufactured it? Texas Instruments?

No. Some company in Taiwan. Exactly as audio-video equipment of most popular and respected brands.

>> Nokia did not have a web browser installed and that we needed to
>> purchase 3rd party software! Isn't that the case with the MS
>> Smartphone and MMS?

No. Nokia didn't install WWW browser at all and you'll have to buy it on your own. MS Smartphone will be BUNDLED with MMS software by OPERATORS supporting MMS. If you buy it in MMS-enabled network, MMS soft will already be there.

>> 4. Would you actually buy such an ugly phone?

As I wrote: it is not that ugly. I think 3650's round keyboard is far uglier. And hard to use. I tried typing an SMS on it and I gave up after 3rd or 4th word.

Rafe:
People I've spoken too tned to say how nice the 7650 UI is.
The 92x0 interface is not what a lot of people expect (people coming up from EIKON especially), but it is IMHO a good UI.

I think user got no chioce but only Symbian phone is available. 😃 😃 😃

So sad :cry: :cry: :cry: We got no choice :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
We should cry fo it. Those big guy control the smartphone.
:cry:
On my Desktop PC, I still can chose among Linux & windows at least but when I purchasing smartphone :cry: :cry: :cry: no choice or I simply do go for smartphone now. :cry: :cry: :cry:

I think there are a Lot of 7650 users who dont know what Symbian is and what apps are available for the 7650! Beleive me I know quite a few who did not know about installing applications. And that in the UK where the phones is a big hit! Ppl see it as a camera phone and nothing else whereas it is a smartphone with an OS installed! My point is and I told you its not thr right thing to do but since it is still a smart-PHONE and most phones will be smart-phones in the future you cannot expect some ppl who dont know about installing apps to give a f***k about software. They are going to buy a phone that has a colour screen and thats it! And these ppl are quite a few! Smartphones and PDAs are two entirely different things in my opinion! Smartphones are NOT PDAs.

Ahh, yes and I still think the MS Smartphone is ugly 😃

jpzr (wirelesssoftware.info): Smarpthone OS (MS Smarpthone 2002) will have very very strong position from day 1 (22nd October in UK at Orange)… Number of applications for PocketPC is tens of thousands while for Symbian less than 1 thousand.

My-Symbian.com: And I don't think that MS is in a weak position. Look at PocketPC market. Thousands of apps.

For me it seems that these two opinions are perfect match, I don't know why. 😊 After all, first site IS pro M$ and the second SHOULD be pro Symbian, at least by it's name…

jpzr: After all, end customers need features and software, not some brands. As of today, if nothing will change: Symbian has very weak position compared to Microsoft's PocketPC Phone Editoin and MS Smartphone 2002 and will be destroyed soon.

My-Symbian.com: SERIOUS company would make something to change negative comments to positive ones when it comes to a site with over 120.000 visitors each month.

Although you might be right from your point of view and some other thousand people, in reality the things are TOTALLY different: Nokia is producing SmartPhones for MASS-MARKET, that is HUNDRED OF MILLIONS of SmartPhones. The segment you are representing, although important, is only a segment from the market and IS NOT the market. So, try don't get fool by yourself, webmasters! Your visitors, and the visitors of any others sites including M$, are important but not essential. The mass-market people, as was already noted here by other posters, including MaleBuffy, don't even know where to look for software, what it is and how to install it. That's a fact.

jpzr: This means TOTALLY DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODEL.

This time you are right. The SmartPhone business model is not the same like PDA business model. Again, this is mass-market business model, more like today 2G-phone business model, where the mass-market users will be very happy with their Nokia CAMERA Phones. They will be happy to have a phone that, besides voice and SMS, is able to take pictures and sent them to their friends through MMS. That's all.

Think again, and be objective, at the difference between 120.000 or so visitors, and the mass-market!

Just thought I check in on this thread (I'll be replying in more details to some of the specific posts later once I have finished the essay that I should be wrting now!).

Just for the record I personally (and All About ER6) have never reciveived any Symbian machine from the manufacturers or Symbian themselves. In fact the only machine I own is a Psion Series 7 which I bought myself 3.5 years ago.

All About ER6 has been given software for reviewing purposes, but obviously not owning a machine I don't ever use that, it goes to the reviewers.

I have never asked for or received a machine/device (I did at one point e-mail Nokia who I should approach about getting hold of a review device, but never got a response). I am not very comfortable about asking for a machine and agree with langdona that the companies are under no obligation (or even expected to) provide a machine to such sites (although I would like one, and if offered I would of couse say yes please and thank you!). I'm not sure of the economics of providing such site with machine. Sure there are around 150,000 visitors a month (calculated by IP in a 24 hr period) here at the moment, but that is probably a small proportion of total sales (especialy given multiple visits per month).

If there is a reason to provide such sites with machines I think rather that it being to perdaude people to buy it should be about support. I know that at one time or another many people on these forums have recieved support / help getting their device working / fixed / doing something. I believe the next big thing in the smartphone market will be support provision (these phones are complicated beasts), something not sufficiently provided for by network operators or hdnset manufaturers. It is far easier to help people with a problem if you have the device yourself. Certainly All About ER6 will be looking to be more helpful in this area over the coming year.

Inevitably were I provided with a machine (or if I bought one myself) it would recieve more attention from me on the site, but that said I'm not the only one posting to the site, so how much of an effect that would have is not clear. I suspect all would get similar coverage (though I do expect the P800 to be covered more in the next 6 months).

I have admin'd this site (or earlier versions) for two years now. I've done so without a Symbian phone device, and will continue to do so because I enjoy it. I enjoy the community here. And because I genuinely believe Symbian will be the best option (I'll be answering some of the posts about MS and the changing nature of the market a bit later).

Rafe