To Touch or not to Touch?

My only experience with a Touch device is that on the N810, and my experience wasn't great, with my thought process being somewhat similar to your own Steve. I do plan on investing in the N97, but do fear from finding out what flaws you have found above with just the two weeks use of your 5800. You have me thinking N86 next instead too now.

I am totally unconvinced by touchscreen. I've used the 5800 and even a Samsung Tocco as my main phone, yet neither survived more than a few days. I accept the advantages in having a larger screen, due to no keypad, but the trade off in usability bothers me. For now I'm happy to stick with the traditional alphanumeric keypad.

Micky! wrote:My only experience with a Touch device is that on the N810, and my experience wasn't great, with my thought process being somewhat similar to your own Steve. I do plan on investing in the N97, but do fear from finding out what flaws you have found above with just the two weeks use of your 5800. You have me thinking N86 next instead too now.

Not only is touchscreen an issue for me, I don't like QWERTY either, so the N97 is definitely off my wishlist. The N86 is currently top of that list! :icon14:

I fully acknowledge all the points raised about the 5800XM's touchscreen in particular. The visibility under direct sunlight is not great and I imagine a similar phone to the 5800 would have a much longer battery life.

I've had the first generation iPhone and now the Nokia 5800. I would say the touch interface works quite well for me, with the main disadvantage being that I have to look at the screen while typing messages.

However, for the things I use the phone for (mainly calls, music and going online) the advantages of the 5800's bigger, higher resolution screen outweigh the texting disadvantages. I usually end up using the onscreen alphanumeric keypad as, with its large keys (bigger than some landline phones'😉 I get get my messages out quickly, even faster than with my iPhone's keyboard which I got quite adept with.

'Apples legendary cool' - that made me laugh. Nice bit of sarcasm.

Back on topic, your experience with the 5800 is entirely in contrast to mine. I was a touch screen doubter, I got the 5800 because of its price and I am now a convert. The only worry is the long term durability, but apart from that I suffer none of the problems that you have, but one you haven't mentioned - using with gloves on in the extreme cold isn't great - needs two hands and a stylus.

I think that the 5800 is an extremely successful adaptation of S60 to a touch screen interface, it works intuitively with either the old menus or the new transparent select icon screens and Nokia have succeeded where most other (especially Apple) manufacturers failed, they implemented a touch interface on a device that is a reasonable size.

It's OK in sunlight, responds to a light touch, is brilliant for 2D scrolling of full size web pages and I have no problems using one handed whilst walking. Only gloves give me problems.

If it will lat up to 24 months then it's a bargain and a half.

Well Nokia's touch system is crap, resistive screen with a touch layer piggy-backed to the 8 year old obsolete S60 UI. No surprise it doesn't provide the best touch experience.

Navigation devices like the TomTom models all have touchscreens. The difference between a TomTom and a S60 touchscreen device is the size of the icons to press. a TomTom has 6 huge buttons, that are almost impossible to miss. A S60 has lots of small icons to press, making it harder to hit the right one (especially in a car).

So the problem is not the touchscreen itself, but the size of the icons on that touchscreen.

I promised a bit of feedback on the 5800 Steve, and here seems to be the place as this is the No.1 issue.

There's lots about it I like. I like the quick and easy ways to turn things on and off by a quick peck - example, BT - the E90 has a quick and easy way but I must open the clam first (can't a FW upgrade change the use of the bottom left button on these phones?) - the E71 does too - some of the E Series phones even have that shortcut on bottom left keypad button - brilliant - but most don't - and none of the N series phones seem to have this - I don't think (waiting to be proved wrong!) 5800 - peck the top of the screen and enter dialogue. This is just one example of how the UI works quickly and well - there are loads more.

Back to the topic - the Touch Screen is perfectly usable (with two hands only) if I accept that I need to use the back of my finger (nail) or the stylus. It scrolls, selects and flicks perfectly. Well, maybe not flicks! But that's the deal for me to be able to use it as my main device really - much like yourself, I don't always want to/can't use two hands and when I try to use it one-handed, it's not a good experience. I'm heading back to the E71 at the moment (now that Google have released a quite brilliant Sync support for GMail Contacts - Calendar soon - I wonder how GooSync will stay in business?!) and have the trusty E90 standing by and, like you, the iPod Touch for the best of both worlds!

You're quite right - this kind of Touch just doesn't cut the mustard.

Tim

Definitely not an obsolete OS, but in fact a strong multi-tasking OS for portable devices and definitely much more than 8 years old and good for many years yet. Not as old as UNIX though, the one which iPhone OS is based on.

The interface has new touch selection features along with the old menus and is evolving nicely. It's without doubt the best out there, and the handwriting recognition is superb for me.

As for using in a car, in the UK at least, people shouldn't even be touching a TomTom screen whilst driving let alone using their hands to operate a mobile pone of any description.

I find the 5800 works really well for me, perhaps some don't get along as well - I have large hands and fingers but am reasonably dextrous as I have been a guitarist for 20 years.

Definitely not an obsolete UI either, see how well it is adapted by pressing the button that looks like three horizontal lines whilst in the web browser. That's new to S60 and shows how it is likely to develop. This means two options for input, the old and the new.

These phones are fast becoming pocket computers.

I remember sometime back in the early 90's having a similar discussion with some chap about a mouse based UI against keyboard driven one. He pointed out, quite rightly *at that time* that a mouse was overkill for most users. His main problem is that he had no idea of what was about to happen the computing industry, no grasp of the sheer scope of human related tasks the computer would be applied to in the coming years.

I would flip Rafe's estimation on its head. He mentioned that touch based phones will probably max out at about 20%, whereas I would say that it will be more like 80%. Touch has to be done right. But when it is... boy it's unbeatable! Colours and iShred for the iPhone; both impossible without a proper multi-touch interface.

I cannot wait to see the back of physical QWERTY keyboards and these atrocious D-pad clusters. I never liked them in 1999 and I like them even less in 2009.

Do you guys remember seeing those early multi-touch demos on YouTube? You know the ones, those original ones, not the iPhone, but a few years prior to it? I remember sitting there and thinking how this would one day replace ALL other interfaces, I'll admit I was quite emotional at the time, it was like a revelation. It's all about flexibility, multi-touch has the ability to become whatever it needs to become, you simply cannot trump that kind of flexibility no matter how well engineered your physical keyboard is.

James @ Nokia Creative

Resistive screens vs capacitairy ones have their advantages. Allows one to draw with any object on the screen. Including any glove. Capacitairy screens have trouble with dry fingers...

Also touch can only supplement and enhance. Not only for handwriting/drawing sketching, but also to reduce the threshold for using it. Nothing reduced the computer barrier than the mouse. The same with touch. Sliding qwerty and a touch allows for a great compromise between phonesize and screenspace.

Whereas it has been reported that billions of bacteria can live on a computer keyboard, never seen reports carried out on a mobile phone keypad; perhaps touchscreen devices should not be dismissed too lightly.

After having used the 5800 for a while, I found that touch works quite well for phone control except for heavy text input. Also the on screen QUERTY keyboard occupies too much space (same as iPhone) so little space is left e.g. to follow an IM conversation.

For me the N97 will be the perfect device: Touch for phone operation and occasional texting, full QUERTY for heavy texting and messaging, keeping the screen free for data display. And all this in a package with a decent camera and all the other S60 features. Great device concept!

Completely agree with Steve... Like him, I search and search some sort of "pocket - everyday use - PC" with good use of Net and e-mail. Like him, for me, the touch screens miss something, ergonomics it�s not the best, the need always to hands operation, and all the other things that he told. For now, the one I use and like it�s N82, and I don�t have any hope for N86, because the miss of Xenon Flash, because if it was something not necessary, then Canon, Fuji, Nikon and all the DSC makers, are all wrong... I think it�s not the case, and all of them, and Nokia with N82 and few others, are correct!

I am also completely agree with Steve!
i have also thought that, even though N97 might be powerful and so on..
it just doesn't suit my day to day activities..
i'm still a university student, and i often carry books, touch screen devices are just too complex to be operated using one hand!

so i doubt it it'll be efficient, even though it could be the best smartphone in 2009..

and i have a question..
i was using N95 8gb for a year, it was a really good phone, loved it..then i changed to N96 because i like the looks better, 16gb memory + expandable, faster trans rate (usb 2) and so on..however, i felt that it's not so convenience to use, because the keypad are all flat! and what's more is that the numeric key 1,2,3 are just too close to the top sliding part..also it's all fingerprints! looks so dirty!

so i would like you to give me your advice..
should i go back to N95 8gb? or try N95? i don't think N85 would satisfy me since it is quite similar to N96..
the problem with N95 8gb is that it doesnt have a camera lens, where as N95 does, but i'm afraid the 950mah battery wouldn't last me long, just like my N96 =( i had to charge it everyday..where the N95 8gb lasted 2 days...
thanks, and sorry for the long comment

Unregistered wrote:should i go back to N95 8gb? or try N95?

If you like the N96 apart from the keypad, wait for the N86 - the keys on the keypad are separated and raised and look oodles better than the N96 keypad. And I agree with you on the N96, incidentally - that's it's one big flaw.

Tim

Unregistered wrote:I am also completely agree with Steve!
so i would like you to give me your advice..
should i go back to N95 8gb? or try N95? i don't think N85 would satisfy me since it is quite similar to N96..
the problem with N95 8gb is that it doesnt have a camera lens, where as N95 does, but i'm afraid the 950mah battery wouldn't last me long, just like my N96 =( i had to charge it everyday..where the N95 8gb lasted 2 days...
thanks, and sorry for the long comment

Apart from inside ROM - 8Gb, N95 8Gb is superior at N95, and I said that, because with the today prices of microSd cards and the replace possibility of N95 it�s far better then 8Gb lock inside, but on N95 you have the little battery, like you said, and the worst thing for me, RAM limitations. So, or N95 8Gb or N82.

thanks for the reply guys..
i really appreciate it, i think i'm gonna try either N82 or get another N95 8gb again...

Personally, I want it all: a keypad and small screen for one-handed and telephone use. Then a large qwerty keyboard should fold out of the side when I want to type text, then there should be a large touchscreen for web browsing and multimedia. The N97 seems to come closest so far. Come on, Steve, you have to admit web browsing with a D-pad is a PiA and far easier with a touchscreen. I'm thinking of my old Revo and Series 7 here.

Not for the first time in my life I seem to be opposite to the general masses but I hated the 'raised' keys of the 95 after my 'flat' N80. so much so I was glad to see the back of it. I just never seemed to feel like I had a decent grip of the thing. perhaps its because I am used to using a normal keyboard/num pad with just a small 'highlight' on teh 5 key who knows. I could enter text much faster with a flat keypad.

I'm now an e90 user and again, flat keys makes it superb to use IMHO.

In total agreement - I hate touch too - nice to play with but not anywhere near as practical on a day-to-day basis. I like the idea of a touchpad for web-browsing but have yet to see a decent implementation - won't be long though.

ILG

I am not sure using the 5800XM is the best choice of device to prove that some how that TS devices are flawed as far as using them as a main device is concerned. Having used one for a while I would say it has a number of issues as far as TS devices go, but these are more down to screen size, the use of resistive technology and limitations within the OS rather than being an inherent issue with TS devices.

I have also owned an iphone for a while and that was a lot better as far as TS interaction was concerned, certainly more accomplished than the 5800XM is in this aspect.

It will be interesting to see how the LG Arena & Omnia HD get along both of which look on paper to be superior implementations of the TS principle than the 5800XM.

The main reason I like TS devices is the much larger screen size and higher resolution screens they often offer. I find a lot of the screens on more conventional devices too small for my liking.

I am a non touchphone guy and adore my N82. No xenon breaks the N86 deal for me. 3 generartion LEDs and all, thank you very much.

However, I feel, the best phone to come out of MWC this year are E55 and E75. E75 is the closest we have come to the convergance of N and E series. QVGA screen is the only problem and in my case, 5MP xenon, my perennial problem 😞

Wait, so the author uses an OS that is not designed (optimized) for touch interactions and then states that users don't want to use touchscreens because of issues related to this lack of attention to dev/design/detail...

...uhmmm

I don't see why it needs to be a case or Touch or Not? As you state, there are advantages to both so have both. I've owned most of the SE PXXX range of UIQ devices with both touch screens and keypads (some more functional than others!) and have now had three Windows Mobile devices with touch screens and slide-out keyboards.

I currently have a Touch Cruise (no keyboard) and, whilst it's a great device and has served me well for twelve months, there are times when it drives me nuts having no keyboard. Then again, I've tried non-touch-screen devices and just can't get on with them either. I never could cope with T9 and, besides, a touch-screen just feels natural and intuitive. I can see the thing I want to select so I select it. I could never make that translation of "I can see the thing I want to select so I press down-down-down-select".

Yes, there is then a trade-off with size and weight but I think the HTC Nike (Touch-Dual) would have been an outstanding device had HTC not inexplicably omitted both WiFi and GPS (what were they thinking). Back in the Symbian world, imagine an N95 but with a capacitive touch-screen (and updated OS to take advantage of it). That would just be lovely!

Must say is a very interesting article you have here on the above mentioned topic. I do agree with what have been said so far about the short comings of touch screen phones. Having owned & played with 4 touch screen phones up till now namely the HTC Touch, Samsung Tocco, SonyE X1 & the N5800 XM. I am of the opinion that the tried & trusted key pad is the way to go for me. Use touch screen as a second phone & maybe you can get away with it. Now I am using the N85 as my primary & the N6220C as my secondary phone. I am seriouly thinking of going back to S40 phone as the basic function of a phone is to call & send sms. For these no frill functions only, the S40 is a more stable platform. I still feel that when you install too many applications in a S60 phone somehow it becomes not so stable in its operation.

It's funny seeing people singing the praises of keypad phones and then mentioning the N82 which whenever I tried it I found to have one of the poorer keypads in the N range of phones.

Why does it have to be one or the other? I want a phone with the dimensions of the 5800, with D-pad, hard buttons, and a slide out keypad just like the N86. And with a touch screen. Best of both worlds.

Consider that Palm *added* buttons to their PDAs (they turned the up/down rocker into a D-pad) ... so they clearly realised that people wanted to use touchscreen hardware with buttons from time to time. Now, we know Apple hates buttons, because they spoil the look of a device -- Nokia's big error (and the other touchscreen manufacturers' error) is that they've tried to copy the minimalist button interface of the iPhone.

A touchscreen makes somethings much quicker. A keypad makes some things much quicker. Combine the two, and everything is as fast as it possibly can be.