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The making of the Nokia N8's camera

107 replies · 36,806 views · Started 28 April 2010

Unregistered wrote:Hi

Congratulation for the N8 but I am upset the N8 doesn't have neither a lens cover nor a double LED for video recording (those of the N86 were great). It would have been the best smartphone ever (the most complete at least).

I know it is too late now but I hope Nokia have another flagship in his portfolio coming out soon ( a N8 with a bigger screen, a lens cover, a double LED and better CPU).

Thanks

I would say that there are constraints on such features.

A bigger screen would mean a bigger device, and compromise pocketability. To take the screen right to the edges of the device with no margin/border would compromise robustness.

I think the lens cover has been proven to be unnecessary, and in the case of the N97 a bad thing. It makes the phone bigger, and the N8 uses all available space and has had the variable aperture taken out in order to fit everything in. I pocket all my phones and never have a problem with lens covers.

A double LED might have been useful, but have you ever been the subject of a video taken with a dual LED illumination? It's not very comfortable and makes people shut their eyes and look away.

The processor might well be good enough, with the Open GL hardware boost, I doubt the speed of the processor will be a problem, especially as the N8 is not aimed at the very top end, by pricing it's a mid range phone. Remember, faster CPU means faster battery drain.

Unregistered wrote:users shouldn't be forced to use T9 on a touch device (5800 XM).
well actually many **prefer** to use it!! I think the main reason is for the dictionary.. If you want more to use qwerty input, put a decent autospell or even autocomplete!! The ideal would that found in Word or Firefox... 😊

DamianDinning wrote:I don't believe this is an area you need worry about.
I HOPE you mean the battery will be changeable, or even replaceable with a bigger one!! 😊

If i understand well, there's no continuous autofocus on the video mode? This is the must have feature i wait on any mobile ! The vivaz from sony ericsson do a very well job in this area...so now i have to keep my Omnia HD for its great well colored videos, Vivaz for it continuous autofocus feature, and N8 for what then?

Unregistered wrote:If i understand well, there's no continuous autofocus on the video mode? This is the must have feature i wait on any mobile ! The vivaz from sony ericsson do a very well job in this area...so now i have to keep my Omnia HD for its great well colored videos, Vivaz for it continuous autofocus feature, and N8 for what then?

We use a system called Active Hyper Focal Distance. The resolution when shooting video is lower than when shooting stills. This means there is a larger tolerance to focus (circle of confusion) than with stills. Given the wideangle optics (28mm equivalent) we have a huge amount of depth of field. By pre-setting the lens to the hyper focal distance we are able to create the widest distance range where objects will appear to be sharp. This range equates to roughly 60cm to infinity. To reduce the size of the camera module we use a lens drive system which to some degree relies on friction. As a result of this the lens can �slip� causing a focus error. To avoid this with the N8 we are for the first time using a system where we continuously check the lens is still in this position, if not it is readjusted.

The benefit of this system is that works in the vast majority of conditions and regardless of subject movement, illumination and contrast. All of these can cause problems with autofocus systems in video resulting in focus hunting and/or out of focus objects. However, we do recognise the benefit of such systems for close-ups. We have been developing a CAF system for video but at this time we don't want to compromise the majority of usage for something you�ll do much less often. But we are continuing to investigate whether we can create a system for in the future which combines the benefits of both. If you look at the sample video on Nokia Conversations there are many examples in the sequence where CAF would have not focused correctly for example.

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DamianDinning wrote:We use a system called Active Hyper Focal Distance. The resolution when shooting video is lower than when shooting stills. This means there is a larger tolerance to focus (circle of confusion) than with stills. Given the wideangle optics (28mm equivalent) we have a huge amount of depth of field. By pre-setting the lens to the hyper focal distance we are able to create the widest distance range where objects will appear to be sharp. This range equates to roughly 60cm to infinity. To reduce the size of the camera module we use a lens drive system which to some degree relies on friction. As a result of this the lens can �slip� causing a focus error. To avoid this with the N8 we are for the first time using a system where we continuously check the lens is still in this position, if not it is readjusted.

The benefit of this system is that works in the vast majority of conditions and regardless of subject movement, illumination and contrast. All of these can cause problems with autofocus systems in video resulting in focus hunting and/or out of focus objects. However, we do recognise the benefit of such systems for close-ups. We have been developing a CAF system for video but at this time we don't want to compromise the majority of usage for something you�ll do much less often. But we are continuing to investigate whether we can create a system for in the future which combines the benefits of both. If you look at the sample video on Nokia Conversations there are many examples in the sequence where CAF would have not focused correctly for example.

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Thanks for the detailed reply 😊

I have a question : will be there any touch to focus feature? Like some samsung and iphone...?

Unregistered wrote:
A bigger screen would mean a bigger device, and compromise pocketability. To take the screen right to the edges of the device with no margin/border would compromise robustness.

All flagships have bigger screen. I don't understand why Nokia are the only one not understanding that. Sony Ericsson X10 has a 4" screen, HTC HD2 has a 4.3" screen, LG Chocolate 4", Samsung Galaxy S 4" too, Motorolla Droid 2 will have a 4.3" screen.

Unregistered wrote: think the lens cover has been proven to be unnecessary, and in the case of the N97 a bad thing. It makes the phone bigger, and the N8 uses all available space and has had the variable aperture taken out in order to fit everything in. I pocket all my phones and never have a problem with lens covers.

What you are saying is not serious. If a camera lens protection was not 'that' important, no compact cameras would have a lens cover. But actually all DLSR and compact cameras have a lens cover. It is sad that a good camera will produce bad photos because of a scratched lens.

Unregistered wrote: double LED might have been useful,

indeed...

Unregistered wrote: have you ever been the subject of a video taken with a dual LED illumination? It's not very comfortable and makes people shut their eyes and look away.

Again: So why all the compact cameras on the market have a LED flash?
At night it would be impossible to record videos with the N8.

And another thing that upset me: according to Eldar Murtazin I the OLED screen of the N8 is not good. He said today that: "I see a very cheap OLED screen on N8. Actually Nokia calls it AMOLED screen, but if you compare it with Samsung HD i8910 � almost 1,5 years on the market, if you compare it with Nexus One from Google, or other phones, it�s not so good. It�s not so outstanding as Super AMOLED from Samsung nowadays, it�s very similar to the display on X6. It might behave a little bit better under bright sunlight, but I don�t think that it is comparable to similar screens from Samsung or Motorola."

Nobody has spoken about the digital image stabilization mode of the camera.
Sounds exciting, but it isn't that much of a deal. It zooms in a bit and uses the spare pixels to compensate for the camera shake. We didn't see much use in it, as it simply cannot compete with mechanical optical stabilization used even in low-end digital cameras.

Is it true that there is no PANORAMA shots in N8? I reallu liked this feature in N86, very usefull for holidays 😊 If so, any speacial reason why it's not there?

Cheers,
Miki

DamianDinning wrote:We use a system called Active Hyper Focal Distance. The resolution when shooting video is lower than when shooting stills. This means there is a larger tolerance to focus (circle of confusion) than with stills. Given the wideangle optics (28mm equivalent) we have a huge amount of depth of field. By pre-setting the lens to the hyper focal distance we are able to create the widest distance range where objects will appear to be sharp. This range equates to roughly 60cm to infinity. To reduce the size of the camera module we use a lens drive system which to some degree relies on friction. As a result of this the lens can �slip� causing a focus error. To avoid this with the N8 we are for the first time using a system where we continuously check the lens is still in this position, if not it is readjusted.

The benefit of this system is that works in the vast majority of conditions and regardless of subject movement, illumination and contrast. All of these can cause problems with autofocus systems in video resulting in focus hunting and/or out of focus objects. However, we do recognise the benefit of such systems for close-ups. We have been developing a CAF system for video but at this time we don't want to compromise the majority of usage for something you�ll do much less often. But we are continuing to investigate whether we can create a system for in the future which combines the benefits of both. If you look at the sample video on Nokia Conversations there are many examples in the sequence where CAF would have not focused correctly for example.

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If continuous auto focus is not the main video recording mode, why not make it an option or even better: a separate app

Why Damian Dinning does no longer answer to the questions asked above ?

The image sensor of the compact camera called Samsung EX1 is wonderful, could it be used in a mobile phone ?

Hi,

I have a question about the available Accessoires for the N8.

Wil there be a deskstand and or something to mount the N8 to a tripod?

Mark.

The sensors used in the N8 and especially in the excellent N86 are from which company ? Omnivision, Aptina, Sony, Samsung ?

Damian Dinning said (N86) : �The sensor is 1/2.5�, it�s the same as in a typical compact camera. It�s one of the latest generation CMOS sensors and is the most sensitive on the market.�

Unregistered wrote:The sensors used in the N8 and especially in the excellent N86 are from which company ? Omnivision, Aptina, Sony, Samsung ?

Damian Dinning said (N86) : �The sensor is 1/2.5�, it�s the same as in a typical compact camera. It�s one of the latest generation CMOS sensors and is the most sensitive on the market.�

Hi, sorry not able to answer the 1st question.

Re the 2nd point: N86 sensor size is 1/2.3" and N8 is 1/1.83"

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miki69 wrote:Is it true that there is no PANORAMA shots in N8? I reallu liked this feature in N86, very usefull for holidays 😊 If so, any speacial reason why it's not there?

Cheers,
Miki

Not in the beginning at least.

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The last post bring up a good point, if Damien doesn't deny it, we would hold the 1/1.7" sensor size to be true. But somehow I feel it's not that big...

Also, CCDs are preferable to CMOS for cleaner images in bright light. So even if the sensor is huge, CMOS will still be noisy, negating the pixel size gains.

The camera UI must be reconsidered, since the last thing users want is a low battery charging up their Xenon capacitors. The phone use up its last breath of energy if users press the camera button accidentally... no, there must be a phone settings memory for those of us that do not want to charge up the Xenon capacitor in broad daylight, or perhaps Nokia can use their Ambient light sensor/battery guage to decide whether to charge the flash while the camera app is still booting up...

Jack Wang wrote:The last post bring up a good point, if Damien doesn't deny it, we would hold the 1/1.7" sensor size to be true. But somehow I feel it's not that big...

Also, CCDs are preferable to CMOS for cleaner images in bright light. So even if the sensor is huge, CMOS will still be noisy, negating the pixel size gains.

The camera UI must be reconsidered, since the last thing users want is a low battery charging up their Xenon capacitors. The phone use up its last breath of energy if users press the camera button accidentally... no, there must be a phone settings memory for those of us that do not want to charge up the Xenon capacitor in broad daylight, or perhaps Nokia can use their Ambient light sensor/battery guage to decide whether to charge the flash while the camera app is still booting up...

As quoted many times now the sensor size is 1/1.83" I don't know where 1/1.7" comes from.

As for noise of CMOS vs CCD. There has been significant advances in CMOS which is why so many digital cameras including DSLR's are switching to CMOS too.

Capacitors hold a large amount of there charge for a very long time. Using ambient light to decide whether to 'top-up' the flash is not practical as we want to be able to use the flash for auto-fill-in where/when we can. e also need to ensure it is ready when you need it. I don't think you'd like us to charge it only when needed and miss the moment.

I don't think this is a major problem in practice although I accept that any kind of flash uses power given the benefits. We take anything that uses power very seriously, however small the power requirements may be. As always we look at the various pros and cons and look to find the best all round solution, it's rarely black and white.

atb

DamianDinning wrote:As quoted many times now the sensor size is 1/1.83" I don't know where 1/1.7" comes from.

As for noise of CMOS vs CCD. There has been significant advances in CMOS which is why so many digital cameras including DSLR's are switching to CMOS too.

atb

Thanks for your clarification. 1/1.83" is amazing, any chance Nokia would put it the brochure or spec sheet for the "geekier" ones?

Even Sony Exmor CMOS, currently one of the most advanced sensors, suffer from noise at low ISOs, ie, day light. Canon SX1 lacks details below ISO400 otherwise captured with its CCD counterparts SX10 and SX20, due to aggressive noise reduction. The colors are also not as "pure" in good lighting conditions, IMO. The Sony APS CMOS in my Pentax K-X performs better than CCD based Nikons at ISO800~6400, but worse at ISO200~800. Indeed, a well lit scene often turns out better in my pocket Optio A40 (1/1.7" 12MP CCD) than the DSLR. DSLRs are switching to CMOS due to lower cost, low light performance (read: day light non-performance), and crazy high speed.

It's another ball game when Sony takes the idea and runs with crazy high speed processing, such as comparing and canceling out the random noise from 6 successive shots, but let's not go there for the sake of our poor multitasking phone batteries...

I do appreciate Nokia's efforts and understand that CCD requires significant changes (physical dimensions, auxiliary processing circuitry, R&D/material cost, etc.) that we probably won't want to pay for.

I shall do more research before expressing my concerns, in hopes that you have more time building a strong product than clarifying concerns 😊

In case I wasn't clear, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Samsung, and others make sensors for their cameras, but all seem disappointing in light of CCDs, esp. Panasonic and Samsung.

I'm hoping that the CMOS in the Nokia is at least a Sony module, not some no-name iPhone/HTC-grade crap :P

Oh yeah, and what about that Camera 2.0 project between Stanford and Nokia Research? Still don't see it released for the N900. Let's make it installable on Symbian^3... one can dream, right?

Jack Wang wrote:Thanks for your clarification. 1/1.83" is amazing, any chance Nokia would put it the brochure or spec sheet for the "geekier" ones?

Even Sony Exmor CMOS, currently one of the most advanced sensors, suffer from noise at low ISOs, ie, day light. Canon SX1 lacks details below ISO400 otherwise captured with its CCD counterparts SX10 and SX20, due to aggressive noise reduction. The colors are also not as "pure" in good lighting conditions, IMO. The Sony APS CMOS in my Pentax K-X performs better than CCD based Nikons at ISO800~6400, but worse at ISO200~800. Indeed, a well lit scene often turns out better in my pocket Optio A40 (1/1.7" 12MP CCD) than the DSLR. DSLRs are switching to CMOS due to lower cost, low light performance (read: day light non-performance), and crazy high speed.

It's another ball game when Sony takes the idea and runs with crazy high speed processing, such as comparing and canceling out the random noise from 6 successive shots, but let's not go there for the sake of our poor multitasking phone batteries...

I do appreciate Nokia's efforts and understand that CCD requires significant changes (physical dimensions, auxiliary processing circuitry, R&D/material cost, etc.) that we probably won't want to pay for.

I shall do more research before expressing my concerns, in hopes that you have more time building a strong product than clarifying concerns 😊

I'm copying this from the GSMArena interview I did this week, it seems appropriate given your message.

"I'd like to explain a little more in regard to noise and our handling of it as wellas our reasons behind the improved optics and large sensor.

As said, whenever you play with the output from the sensor you'll end up increasing noise. The combination of the new optics and large sensor gave us the best platform we've ever had to develop from.

Early on we were seeing some pretty incredibly detailed images and we therefore knew the optics had potential. The specs prove this too as the theoretical performance of the optics is pretty close to 12mp. Often the system resolution is way below the actual and a 12mp camera (even dedicated digital cameras) may only provide in practice say 5mp resolution.

I can't say what we'll end up with as we continue to optimise the performance we may see this figure reduce, but the point is that we have lots of resolving power to start with. Those original images whilst looked incredibly sharp suffered from what I see in many broadly comparable products and that's being over processed. The result is something that looks ok but not natural. We wanted to retain as much natural detail as possible but we also still wanted to provide vibrant colours which are true to your mind's eye but without the over processed look.

You can artificially create perceived sharpness but you can't create detail that wasn't there to start with. It's an important difference. Having the high resolving power of the Carl Zeiss optics coupled to the low noise provided by the large sensor has given us more to play with than before.

The result we're aiming for is the best balance of all of these. We could optimise for just one, e.g. to provide lower noise than ever before but then we'll have to compromise a little on the colour or we'll compromise the inherent detail. In other words, great colour but which is still natural, high detail without sharpening artefacts but still with relatively low noise.

A further example of the benefit of the Carl Zeiss optics and large sensor is in video. Because we have great resolving power to start with we don't need to have high levels of edge enhancement. And as we don't have high levels of noise we're able to record video without any noise reduction whatsoever in daylight conditions. The result is high detail in video but without any noise. It looks really great."

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Hi Damian,

Will there be an option to save the image as RAW, DNG or TIFF data?
I ask this becouse u are talking about a great camera u are developing but the downside of all digital cameras is the compression of the JPEG codec.
U lose alot of detail due to this, i examend alot of testimages that where shot with compact cameras in JPEG en RAW en u could clearly see that the JPEG always muddied up grass and leaves or loosing detail in other earias like skin, hear etc.

I do however understand that RAW format isnt the format for the general public but it would give some/most people more freedom and bether quality images to work with without having to add tomuch extra code in the program.

Cheers,

Mark.

Hope to see different in symbian^3 in n8.. I mean available feature in camera allow user to switch it eg. focus mode, touch focus / one touch to capture photo, more White Balance setting, more capture mode, more ISO setting (100,200,400,800)... Getting bored with current n86 8MP feature

😊

genus86 wrote:Hope to see different in symbian^3 in n8.. I mean available feature in camera allow user to switch it eg. focus mode, touch focus / one touch to capture photo, more White Balance setting, more capture mode, more ISO setting (100,200,400,800)... Getting bored with current n86 8MP feature

😊

Hi.

re more.

It would help if you could be specific what features and settings you would like and why for each of those. Being bored is hard to use as a reason to get sw investment. 😉

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Mark1976 wrote:Hi Damian,

Will there be an option to save the image as RAW, DNG or TIFF data?
I ask this becouse u are talking about a great camera u are developing but the downside of all digital cameras is the compression of the JPEG codec.
U lose alot of detail due to this, i examend alot of testimages that where shot with compact cameras in JPEG en RAW en u could clearly see that the JPEG always muddied up grass and leaves or loosing detail in other earias like skin, hear etc.

I do however understand that RAW format isnt the format for the general public but it would give some/most people more freedom and bether quality images to work with without having to add tomuch extra code in the program.

Cheers,

Mark.

No we'll be using JPEG only for stills. However, we test very carefully the use of the right compression setting. I can say this though as it's been thoroughly evaluated. even at 300% screen magnification you can't see any visual difference between the setting we use and 100% JPEG quality setting.

The only benefit of RAW would be if you want to process the images yourself. That's a lot of image processing to remove which is heavily optimised for the specific module in each product. I accept that in some situations you may prefer to tailor to your preferences as imaging is after all very subjective area.

For now RAW support will not be provided but we continue to assess the need for this for possible future product development.

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DamianDinning wrote:Hi.

re more.

It would help if you could be specific what features and settings you would like and why for each of those. Being bored is hard to use as a reason to get sw investment. 😉

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Hi Damian,

You can refer to this
For Scene Mode:
Beach/Snow mode (for user taking photo under strong lighting condition such as beach & sunlit water scene to get better exposure & colour)

Backlight (for taking photo where light is come from behind of the, where user found n86 don't have ability to do well in this)

Party (white balance under dim room (warm colour lighting) is not doing well + also the exposure which user found n86 not doing well in this)

For ISO setting
Allow user to manually preset ISO at 100, 200, 400, 800. Somtimes for low light condition user may want to use low ISO to extend exposure time & reduce noise at minimum.(for n86 there is no use of low ISO since this limited by exposure time 😡 & the photo get darker) Sometimes user may want to use high ISO800 /ISO1200 (flash off) to capture photo with minimum 'hand shake' without take too much concern on noise issue but just to get enough detail of subject under low light condition.

For Focus mode
Wish to see lock exposure & spot focus ( sometimes using n86 wanna get more precise exposure is hard, with spot focus + AE Lock user can point on certain part on scene to get more precise exposure)

For White Balance
Strong fluoroscent (current white balance available on n86 may not fullfill user since sometimes the scene WB still shown cool after using fluoroscent WB setting)

Shade ( n86 user found the colour of subject which under shade will generally cooler)

😉
Hope you get my point & absorb my opinion