The changing shape of Nseries - no scaremongering, just the facts

Unregistered wrote:

I prefer to think more broadly and less parochially.

Who says all phones have to be all things to all people? Nokia stuck with resistive screens for too long in European and American markets out of their insistence (because of their popularity in Asia) that stylus compatibility was a must. Most Americans and Europeans have moved on and don't consider stylii that important. Why design multiple phones to a single spec? Finally, Nokia got out of that thinking, which is why they are finally using capacitive touchscreens. There's a reason capacitive screens caught on in the US and Europe. They are more suited to the way we use phones. That's not being parochial. That's responding to consumer preference.

Unregistered wrote:
I use an iPhone. I'm not sure that the OS and UI are the entire reason for its success. It is extremely poor in very important areas. These are areas that Nokia always get right, but they are not the upfront in your face eye candy areas. It's the superficial stuff that sells.

The OS and UI are fundamental to Apple's success, and areas that Nokia usually gets wrong. What sets Apple apart is that it designs products that appeal to people. I can give my mother an iPhone and not have to explain how it works. Try that with just about any other phone. Symbian makes sense if you have used it for a long time, but it is bewildering to a newcomer. Even Nokia admitted as much, since it has simplified Symbian^3's UI.

Superficiality might sell a phone once. However, the iPhone has proven to have a very loyal base, and a high rate of satisfaction (it blows away everything else in surveys). Every new generation sells faster than the previous one. That isn't superficial. That's a successful business model that everyone else, Nokia included, would like to replicate in that segment of the market.

Unregistered wrote:If you love Nokia/hate iPhone so much why do you use an iPhone? What UI complaints do you have against iOS? I'm curious as your point of view is usually the opposite way around. Most of the people I speak to usually want to get rid of their Nokia/Samsung/Sony Ericsson in favour of an iPhone.

I have to use it because it is the only platform with the app I need. That has forced me to need to carry two phones.

The UI is not the problem, it's a more important problem, that of connectivity and signal strength. Basically when compared side by side under identical conditions the Nokia works as a phone with good signal quality whilst the iPhone has regressed to an iPod touch saying "No Service".

Surely being connected is more important than a pretty UI?

And the battery! It's not too bad as long as I don't use it, then it sucks power like a locomotive.

But that's OK, it's an Apple iPhone and has a pretty UI so wtf if I miss an important call. I can always adjust my grip. How appropriate.

F*****G emperors new clothes.

clonmult wrote:

Symbian is going to replace S40 though, that was *always* Nokias intent. And it still is judging from what they're actually pushing.

<SIGH /> Another one not paying attention. Read the article and look at the damn slide that Nokia published. According to Nokia that is NOT their intent.

10 year olds and up don't want qwerty, and definitely don't prefer blackberry devices. What they want - as I have said before - is to have something that looks good (ie. not a blackberry), can take pictures/video, play games, do some facebook, play music. The music ability of the BB range really isn't that good. And gaming just hasn't taken off on BB.

![/QUOTE]

10 year olds and up do want qwerty and BB is the aspirational target. That's real world experience, on this planet. I am astonished that you have got an internet connection on whatever planet you are posting from.

iam really disappointed with this shit n series flagship n97 which has lot of hardware and software problems

its just a shit nobody want to use and no one interested when i try to sell every one is going away from nokia what should i do this fuuuking n97

it cant play videos well , it looses the 3g signal suddenly , even complete black outs are common and the irritating part is most ugly ui horrible

and still nokia irritating their customers with stupid strategy of not updating all n97 models

in my opinion nokia should stop making mobiles or they should sell their brand along with symbian to other manufacturers

i will move to some other android based mobile but what about this n97 shit i cant sell it i cant use it to play videos , and i cant use it for calling

Unregistered wrote:
10 year olds and up do want qwerty and BB is the aspirational target. That's real world experience, on this planet. I am astonished that you have got an internet connection on whatever planet you are posting from.

The planet I'm posting from is one where I've been in software development and tech for 25 years, was doing blackberry product support for 5 years, have plenty of kids in the family, younger friends, etc.

I'm basing my premise on what I've actually seen. The majority are wanting music, camera and texting. Why would they want a tiny/cramped qwerty keyboard when all they do is txt spk whch cn b hndld btr via T9 or a larger on-screen keyboard?

If kids have a BB as an aspirational target, then they probably also idolise Katie Price/Jordan, think she's an awesome singer and a perfect female role model and have the mental agility of a kipper.

Unregistered wrote:I have an iPhone and unlike the many I am not blinded to it's very irritating UI faults.

Unregistered wrote:The UI is not the problem, it's a more important problem, that of connectivity and signal strength. Basically when compared side by side under identical conditions the Nokia works as a phone with good signal quality whilst the iPhone has regressed to an iPod touch saying "No Service".

These quotes (if they are both from you) are a bit of a contradiction no? Seems like you're just an ideologue/fanboi trying to shoot down the iPhone at all costs. Both platforms have their positives maybe you should accept that and move on.

Also, as the below quote makes amply clear, it's not just about the UI but also about the applications. In this area the iPhone is miles ahead of the Symbian.

Unregistered wrote:I have to use it because it is the only platform with the app I need. That has forced me to need to carry two phones.

Peter Sulzer wrote: They finally should realize, that they have the be most modern (microkernel, realtime) and _B_E_S_T_ OS on the market: _S_Y_M_B_I_A_N_!

This is absolutely true. The Nokia hardware people got to realize that.

More importantly, if Nokia is seriously about recapturing the US market. It got to pick up where it falls. Symbian took a punch but it got to let it stand up again. Because Americans like winners. Introducing Meego will not yield this psycological uplift.

Is it important to conquer the US market? Yes! I am from Asia and I can assure you that most consumers here will not hear the noise but just look at the winner at the US market. Sure you might say they are not factually or technically correct but why should they go bother about the 3rd or 4th ... other than the winners. Next UI is VERY important because it is the only way to lure non-tech savvy consumers to such a too-many-function-rich smartphone. Here in Asia because of the rapidly rising wealth, people just ask for most fashionable and latest WINNER phone. One might ask what about the lower end segment. I can tell you it is shrinking fast because children here are flushed with parent's cash or they would just get a simple phone plus an iPod touch (with no subscription burden but yet can play all the fancy games or apps and as shiny as an iPhone).

Do we asians look at Europe for the clue\review to determine winner phone? No because our second language is English and most people only know to add .com not .co.uk not .fr not .de.

So it is VERY VERY IMPORTANT for Nokia to make Symbian stand up again with a touch UI.

Of course there are many who doubt that Symbian is upto it iPhone.

So we shall all cease fire for a moment and take a quick peep.

First the N97 fault IS NOT EQUAL to Symbian fault. Where is the proof? Look at N97 mini. Although it is resistive, by v11.0.45 actually the touch is good. The problem with resistive for UI detection when the finger flesh part touch it is a broad area and a little bit of delay for the UI might be needed to recognise what the finger wants to do. If one uses a stylus or fingernail to touch and drag, it is immediate because the touch point registeration is straight forward. The other delays elsewhere in the menu system I think is really crippled by the limited RAM for storing the menu information and screens.

One can look and play closely with iPhone iOS. While we might not all like its rainbow menus or no direct way to WLAN. There is something sexy about touching the screen. I mean the screens just follow the finger tip. Left or right or up or down and flick. The answer lies in holding all these screens in memory and hardware to accelerate the repainting. Therefore anyone when first touch it just felt IN CONTROL. Here lies the basic design philosophy difference which separates Nokia and Apple. Apple will just give the UI any hardware resources to achieve the sexiness in UI/touch. Nokia unfortunately with that old business school thought of $$ so must cripple the UI with limited hardware. But please do not forget this is not zero sum game with more user impress by the UI, more will give $$ to expand the pie.

One more proof that UI problem can be easily solved for Symbian just look at SPB shell v3.5 running on s60v5 devices. The feel is completely refreshing. The only problem is the shell need more RAM and therefore prevent some additional apps to be loaded.

Going forward, Nokia must realise that the game is about a good OS with a sexy UI and NON-confusing development platform which is productive at solving business or game logics and NOT technical compatibilities or gliches.

I think Nokia should pause and think how they want their uses to FEEL when holding a Nokia in hand: always felt crippled in each society class. Not the list of functions in each phone spec. Afterall when the iPhone first came out, its function list seems far short but look at what happen.

Not that I don't believe in Meego but it is not yet proven and iOS is already 2 generations proven so putting the bet in the Meego name is VERY risky. Symbian on the other hand with the exception of N97 flop has more than a few generations. For those who think that s40 is not a force just look at what Sony Ericsson done with it in say K800 or Nokia 66x0 with integrated SIP. Yeah they are no touch devices but the icons big and pretty, camera button immediately responsive, joy stick always responsive. The problem was when many of these devices were released, 3G plans were expensive and wifi not integrated and there were no OVI store so getting apps were almost impossible for novice users.

........ ('ll cont'd)

As was stated by several ppl several times, Symbian is pretty irrelevant in the high end market now.
After seeing the N8, which is DECENT, but just not ground breaking, then seeing today's video on the Meego Handset
http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/meego-for-handsets-makes-its-first-appearance/

And having owned an N800 a few years ago, I'm really excited about where Nokia is heading. I loved my Maemo, and wished the N900 supported AT&T bands, or I would've definitely jumped on that instead of that POS N97. Maemo might be small right now, but it really get's little criticism, and has an extremely loyal fanbase as well. And the maemo apps that can be found is so much better than S60, such as email, office apps, browser, media players, chat, photo editors, etc.

It's pretty obvious now where Nokia has spent their resources. And I say, they spent it very wisely. So for all you Symbian fanboys - sorry, but it's really obvious Symbian is being pushed DOWN. And for Nokia fanboys - get off it! Putting symbian on the low tier and focusing on Maemo/Meego on the high-end is positively the best strategy for Nokia. Something I was really hoping for several years ago, and it finally has arrived. And if you REALLY believe corporate press and roadmaps about co-existence between S60 and Meego, I guess you also believe that oil companies do their best to preserve the environment. Corporate press is only to appease investors and calm the devs, not make us happy. But hey, look on the bright side - S60V3.2 phones are finally getting the hardware they deserve, and they even managed to get Nokia Maps running on S40, saving S40's life. We've haven't seen Java dominate UI landscape with write-once-run-anywhere, and I very much doubt QT will be any different. I rather have those native Maemo apps ported from Debian packages any day.

Nokia has the tools to dominate the next generation of phones, they just have to stop listening to rabid fanboys that want everything for cheap and just focus on what their good at, which at the moment is NOT Symbian. Symbian had it's day, it's mature, but it's also plateaued, as evidenced by the N8. N8's only appeal is the HW, but the SW just seems so lazy, yet again. Lazy as in they won't make it easy to make great apps, as stated by Gravity's author, or won't upgrade the OS any further (why is there still no swap file support by now!?!)

Seriously, Nokia really needs to regain the experience where ppl were proud to spend $600 for the N95-8GB. Not just feel like crap for buying crapship devices, or feel lucky to bottom-fish "bargain" smartphones. And Meego seems to be the way to go to get there.

-Gene

First, I am not a Symbian fanboy.

Unregistered wrote:And having owned an N800 a few years ago, I'm really excited about where Nokia is heading. I loved my Maemo, and wished the N900 supported AT&T bands, or I would've definitely jumped on that instead of that POS N97. Maemo might be small right now, but it really get's little criticism, and has an extremely loyal fanbase as well. And the maemo apps that can be found is so much better than S60, such as email, office apps, browser, media players, chat, photo editors, etc.

The reason is Nokia's current major base is Symbian so if Symbian gets misbranded as low-down, it will create a apalanche effect on all the existing S40, S60 or S60v5 owners loyalty. So this base will become cherries for all (iPhone, Samsung, HTC, Motorola) to pick. In fact it is already happening fast: BADA, LG.

But hey, look on the bright side - S60V3.2 phones are finally getting the hardware they deserve, and they even managed to get Nokia Maps running on S40, saving S40's life. We've haven't seen Java dominate UI landscape with write-once-run-anywhere, and I very much doubt QT will be any different. I rather have those native Maemo apps ported from Debian packages any day.

So NO I am not moaning for Symbian. I am just concerned that I do not see a clear and smooth path for Nokia to ease its existing install base onto M. Please take also into consideration that a lot of S40, S60 owners are now more mature after few years now and higher purchasing power so have more purchase options open to them.

Nokia has the tools to dominate the next generation of phones,

they just have to stop listening to rabid fanboys that want everything for cheap and just focus on what their good at, which at the moment is NOT Symbian. Symbian had it's day, it's mature, but it's also plateaued, as evidenced by the N8. N8's only appeal is the HW, but the SW just seems so lazy, yet again. Lazy as in they won't make it easy to make great apps, as stated by Gravity's author, or won't upgrade the OS any further (why is there still no swap file support by now!?!)

Right now Nokia must first QUICKLY unify its existing install base with apps and Meego just will not give that number so soon. This is what Nokia forgot to do for many years so although it has a healthy install base but it is not unified and loyal. This is where java apps play a very big part.

Seriously, Nokia really needs to regain the experience where ppl were proud to spend $600 for the N95-8GB. Not just feel like crap for buying crapship devices, or feel lucky to bottom-fish "bargain" smartphones. And Meego seems to be the way to go to get there.

-Gene

But get where? Right now is the tipping point because it is just not about a competition of flagships but really an app eco system which partners or customers will commit in future. The eco system is the KEY. So if Nokia cannot rope in its existing install base into it. It is starting from zero whereas the iTune, iApps running on all iPhones,iPads and iPods is already a loyal and sizable install base.

QT is quite good. Maemo is a great platform just like LINUX Ubunto, KDE etc but that is not enough to create an eco system. There must be a belief coupled with good commercial commitment value plus an unified or grateful install base.

Apple believe in CLOSED Proprietary but neat.
Nokia must then stand for OPEN yet neater.

Apple wants to void all existing efforts, investments on JAVA, Adobe, video types.
Then Nokia must collect all these and optimize low level hardware to do these better and tighter than Apple. So Apple means re-coding and re-learning but Nokia must means no re-coding or re-learning.

Apple is telling the existing mobile owners, just leave your not so valuable old phones behind and come join this family of iTunes, iApps, iBooks. Just come to our Apple store and everything will be taken care of.

Nokia must therefore tell Symbian owners (be it SE, Samsung, Nokia) you are already in a family and your phone can already harvest many existing crops and we are moving to a beautiful future together. Better still you can bring ANY type of songs, any video standards or books and can seamlessly play here. Our new cafe is not a show room but walk in and get into this OPEN eco system.

Apple is saying look our phones are pretty and their touch sexy with many fun apps. We will get more advertisers, corporate to provide i-Services in FUTURE.
Nokia must say ours are not only pretty and sexy but also reliable. All these years we've researched and developed many useful connected services and you can plug into them RIGHT NOW with your existing phones. BTW our new M phones will allow even more possibilities.

Frankly, any of these legs missing or mis-executed and the battle will be lost.

samson432 wrote:First, I am not a Symbian fanboy.

Next, personally I am as excited about Maemo 'coz it is OPEN. But right now there is a commercial problem not Nokia's current revenue but Nokia's branding. If Maemo has been committed another 2 years earlier I think most of us won't be discussing this at all 'coz all the smartphone flagship would be on M.

The reason is Nokia's current major base is Symbian so if Symbian gets misbranded as low-down, it will create a apalanche effect on all the existing S40, S60 or S60v5 owners loyalty. So this base will become cherries for all (iPhone, Samsung, HTC, Motorola) to pick. In fact it is already happening fast: BADA, LG.

So NO I am not moaning for Symbian. I am just concerned that I do not see a clear and smooth path for Nokia to ease its existing install base onto M. Please take also into consideration that a lot of S40, S60 owners are now more mature after few years now and higher purchasing power so have more purchase options open to them.

Precisely, why so many reply to this thread because they too think so but felt concern with the confusing strategy so far.

Right now Nokia must first QUICKLY unify its existing install base with apps and Meego just will not give that number so soon. This is what Nokia forgot to do for many years so although it has a healthy install base but it is not unified and loyal. This is where java apps play a very big part.

But get where? Right now is the tipping point because it is just not about a competition of flagships but really an app eco system which partners or customers will commit in future. The eco system is the KEY. So if Nokia cannot rope in its existing install base into it. It is starting from zero whereas the iTune, iApps running on all iPhones,iPads and iPods is already a loyal and sizable install base.

QT is quite good. Maemo is a great platform just like LINUX Ubunto, KDE etc but that is not enough to create an eco system. There must be a belief coupled with good commercial commitment value plus an unified or grateful install base.

Apple believe in CLOSED Proprietary but neat.
Nokia must then stand for OPEN yet neater.

Apple wants to void all existing efforts, investments on JAVA, Adobe, video types.
Then Nokia must collect all these and optimize low level hardware to do these better and tighter than Apple. So Apple means re-coding and re-learning but Nokia must means no re-coding or re-learning.

Apple is telling the existing mobile owners, just leave your not so valuable old phones behind and come join this family of iTunes, iApps, iBooks. Just come to our Apple store and everything will be taken care of.

Nokia must therefore tell Symbian owners (be it SE, Samsung, Nokia) you are already in a family and your phone can already harvest many existing crops and we are moving to a beautiful future together. Better still you can bring ANY type of songs, any video standards or books and can seamlessly play here. Our new cafe is not a show room but walk in and get into this OPEN eco system.

Apple is saying look our phones are pretty and their touch sexy with many fun apps. We will get more advertisers, corporate to provide i-Services in FUTURE.
Nokia must say ours are not only pretty and sexy but also reliable. All these years we've researched and developed many useful connected services and you can plug into them RIGHT NOW with your existing phones. BTW our new M phones will allow even more possibilities.

Frankly, any of these legs missing or mis-executed and the battle will be lost.

First of all, it's good to finally see someone who has more sense than alot of the blinded posters here. I do agree on many points here, and as a corporation, Nokia can't just suddenly pull the rug on Symbian. But the it just seems more and more that the truth of the matter is that Nokia is slowly developing two rival turfs, especially with the promising progress of Meego now. It's really gaining momentum while Symbian is continuing to slip in traction, especially since their market share has been flat or declining, according to very outdated definitions of the smartphone market. It doesn't make sense to have two products within the same company competing on the same space. People here keep saying that Symbian is here to stay, as if Meego is just something like Apple TV, a hobbyist platform. Who'd ever believe that, especially after this week? Nokia has obviously dedicated lots of talent on Meego, and the prototype looks better than many Nokia production releases. Nokia really needs to re-brand Symbian as something for the general masses, and leave Meego to the high-end now. It will give much better clarity for the devs on what type of applications to develop and support on each platform. They also need to continue support the Debian model where Maemo started to not lose alot of invested development in Maemo or have a REALLY easy way to port or the old maemo projects to Qt. Remember the S60v2->S60v3 debacle? Why on earth would they want to start that again?

Qt apps might be written in native C++ with annotations and some fancy build facilities to attempt to build against the target OS, but let's be honest - it will come down to the UI at the end for mobile, and there just never seems to be a success story without dedicated support from the OS platform developers and dedicated coding by the app devs directly. Everything else becomes mediocre to plain horrible because of coding to the lowest common denominator. The only thing that even comes close is Flash/Flex, but even that has no traction in the mobile world, although Android seems to want prove us wrong there. And Maemo already has some experience getting Flash on mobile device. I'd be much more inclined to believe in Qt if it was advertised as THE exclusive platform for Meego development, thus giving serious credibility to Meego and just leaving S60 off to mature on their own. Or at the very least just give base support to S60 for offshoot R&D. Then we know how resources are divided and dedicated very clearly. And then the current installed base might actually have faith that Nokia will execute properly, not just have an idealistic, but not very practical transition plan, and wait more patiently, knowing that something very promising will come out. This to me sounds much realistic than having both efforts reaching for the pie in the sky, and killing each other along the way.

So, at the end, just like how I like to use OSS to deliver my projects, I do like how Nokia "grasps" openness as well. But at the end, they really just make the justifiable hard choice and just stick with it. Place the bet on Meego and just let Symbian live on it's own. Symbian actually does a good job killing the dumbphone market, and would make more considerable traction there.

-Gene