Nokia has released their Q2 2010 results, reporting an operating profit of €295 million, with net sales €10.0billion (up 1% YoY). Nokia's device and service division's profits were €643 million, down 16% year on year. Margins in devices and services were 9.5% (down 2.7% YoY and down 2.6% QoQ). Converged devices sales (smartphones) were 24 million, compared with 16.9 million units in Q2 2009 (up 42% YoY) and 21.5 million units in Q1 2010 (up 12%). As such, worldwide smartphone marketshare was 41%, stable sequentially and year on year. Full story and comments below.
Read on in the full article.
It doesn't matter...nokia is doomed and symbian is dead...
(irony off) People and especially fanboys will never understand that the needs people have are not always the same to just buy one smartphone (iPhone) or another platform (Android). Some people just want their job done and Symbian can do that despite their old (but still efficient) UI. Not everyone is a geek and wants to have the best (citation needed 😛)
Down 40%. 😮
Don't worry Symbian^3 will save the day!
Since the N97 Nokia have been competing on value and price, shifting low cost Symbian handsets to bridge the period whilst they develop the more profitable products.
So, a good rearguard is being fought, and this was easily predictable, selling more phones for less money will result in higher shipments and lower profit. It keeps Symbian out there and in the hands of millions whilst Nokia regroup. Seems pretty positive, basically recovering from the N97 f*** up.
MemphisX wrote:It doesn't matter...nokia is doomed and symbian is dead... (irony off) People and especially fanboys will never understand that the needs people have are not always the same to just buy one smartphone (iPhone) or another platform (Android). Some people just want their job done and Symbian can do that despite their old (but still efficient) UI. Not everyone is a geek and wants to have the best (citation needed 😛)
I'd argue that it's actually the geeks who are willing to live with clunky UI, unstability that forces them to tweak the device and all other kinds of problems they can solve and be proud afterwards.
It's normal people, who want their job done quickly, efficiently who will will dismiss Symbian as too high-maintenance and go for more usable, stable, faster and visually appealing platforms.
@Manual
Given the lower ASP for the smartphones it actually appears to be the 'normal' mobile customer who is buying these phones.
Perhaps the UI really isn't as bad as some people make out? Apparently 24 million people thought so this quarter.
Mr Mark wrote:@ManualGiven the lower ASP for the smartphones it actually appears to be the 'normal' mobile customer who is buying these phones.
Perhaps the UI really isn't as bad as some people make out? Apparently 24 million people thought so this quarter.
Aye, look at the increase in sales of the "numbered" models and the drop in sales of the N series.
My step son has had his 5800 for a year. He's not even vaguely technical, he just about knows where the power switch is on his PC and XBox, but doesn't know where the oil and water go in an engine .... despite his lack of any technical ability, he's liked the 5800.
However he's intending to change phones soon. His choice surprised me .... BLACKBERRY!!!!
manual_ wrote:I'd argue that it's actually the geeks who are willing to live with clunky UI, unstability that forces them to tweak the device and all other kinds of problems they can solve and be proud afterwards.
It's normal people, who want their job done quickly, efficiently who will will dismiss Symbian as too high-maintenance and go for more usable, stable, faster and visually appealing platforms.
No offense, but that would be a pretty weak argument. Just look around, the people who have 5800 or similar (eg, my wife and daughter) don't install things on them, and they just work. It's quick and efficient to make a call. What's more, it works well as a *phone*, ie good reception. I'd be willing to bet that normal people care more about the stability of a phone call than the stability of running apps.
I understand the frustrations of people who got sucked in by the n97, (I own one myself!), but there's no need to lose objectivity. Sales are sales, and you can't deny that 24 million is a decent chunk. Nokia are doing something right here, and hopefully they can win back the nerds that with the n8. The idea of a discount for n97 users that was floated here somewhere, now that would be a great way to win back some of the more vocal bashers.
Nokia was expecting these figures in the first place.
The time has come for Nokia to change it's structure, and by that I mean change the person in charge of the whole operation. Nokia failed to impress crowds after the era of N95 and even N82; for one thing they only released a repackaged version of these devices. Plus the fact that they continue to change platforms and dumping older ones thereby making them seem obsolete.
N8 hasn't been released yet, but already Nokia was talking of the Symbian^4! Now that is a very dumbfound move in my opinion.
It's about time Nokia prove it's competitiveness in the Phone Manufacturing arena, release cutting edge and innovative UI in all it's devices that will serve a common platform but contains the "Human Technology" smartness that once was a shout out.
Tacsiyapo!!!
The shares are up a bit since Nokia's smartphone market share came in a bit better than expected. OPK is calling for the rumors of his exit to go away, which to me is a sign that they are very real. The drop in ASP is huge, and a lot is riding on the N8 launch.
If someone purchases a 5800, never installs anything on it, doesn't use the browser, and just uses it as a basic phone, it may go down as a "smartphone sale" on paper but it doesn't do much for Nokia's margin. That customer wasn't valuing the phone as a "smartphone" and thus won't pay "smartphone" prices for it. That's the real issue that Nokia needs to address long term. The market for smartphones is exploding, but Nokia to date has missed out on the most profitable part of that growth.
A customer that buys a 5800 can see the word "XpressMusic" and knows what its about. They might not use every bit of its capability but they dip in here and there and use it for Facebook etc, and video, listen to music. It's definitely more than a basic phone to them.
It's like a Blackberry user, buys the thing because of the messaging capability - and because all their peers have one.
I think the story of OPK orbituary is just a revenge started by eldar murtazin.
MemphisX wrote: Not everyone is a geek and wants to have the best
I smell a new marketing tag line.
"When you don't require the best, (shrug) you can settle for a Nokia."
Very interesting stuff in the last 4 bullets on the call... Hopefully something interesting among those N8 launch services & software.. Also interesting to see that Symbian will compete with the likes of Android and Apple in the "lower-high end" 😊 as well - was kind of expecting that all along myself and was a bit puzzled by all the "Symbian is for the low end only" talk.
Mr Mark wrote:@ManualGiven the lower ASP for the smartphones it actually appears to be the 'normal' mobile customer who is buying these phones.
Perhaps the UI really isn't as bad as some people make out? Apparently 24 million people thought so this quarter.
Typical statement from you. The earnings statement clearly shows a rise in the low end@margin series, while the hi-end devices made no growth or negative growth. Normal ppl just don't care if it is nokia, only if it is cheap, and that is how nokia stayed afloat this quarter - by selling itself cheap. Any investor would be absolutely pissed at these results. Make more but earn less???? Do u work for their pr department?
-Gene
Typical statement from you. The earnings statement clearly shows a rise in the low end@margin series, while the hi-end devices made no growth or negative growth.
Yes I know, what's your point?
Normal ppl just don't care if it is nokia, only if it is cheap, and that is how nokia stayed afloat this quarter - by selling itself cheap.
Yes I know, what's your point?
Any investor would be absolutely pissed at these results.
Yes I know, what's your point?
One day you're going to be able to follow the context of a thread - which was that 'normal' people not 'geeks' buy Nokias. Probably about the time you finally figure out how to register an account I would imagine.
If Nokia's strategy is to dominate low and mid-tier market with Symbian in order to mature the people for future Symbian generations, they are doing extremely well actually. Oh wait...it IS their strategy.
Considering that thay haven't released a single flagship device in over a year, and that the last one was a "disaster" in the eyes of the american tech bloggers, they are exceptionally. In fact they are doing so well, that it is almost an insult to both Apple and HTC. Yes, they have higher margins right now, but they will be forced to lower them in the future if Nokia's coming high-end devices are successfully.
Yes, it has been a while to build momentum and execution, but here comes JUGGERNAUT!
Time to buy those Nokia shares now, I predict a good rise.
nokia used to be succesful an this got them to Big Headheaded an now think any mobile they produce will be Successful,but its now showing them they have got to Change there ideas very Quickly but knowing Nokia it will be to Slow,they never seem to Compete in certain sections nowdays,we got the Pixon 12 an Satio they 12 mega-pixel camera mobiles but what did Nokia do,Released nothing to Compete with these mobiles,then about a year later we are going to the Nokia N8 which is to late from Nokia,they Decided to try compete with Apple an Android mobiles an released the N900,but Nokia made the N900 to Bulky as people want this an Pocket sized mobiles nowdays,they then did another mistake with there first 8 mega-pixel camera mobile the N86 instead of Designing an new mobile they just upgraded the N85,they like using Refurbished materials in the Plastic mobiles but because of the iPhone Success people want Metal Bodies on Mobiles an that another thing Nokia as got to realise,after the N8 being in Metal there future mobiles better be same in there Top Class Mobiles or people will look elsewere again,hope we do get a better mobiles at Nokia in there near Future
Are you unable to read and understand?
I hope you just didn't read the article. Because if you did, you clearly haven't understood anything, let alone being able to count - Nokia sold 24.5 million smartphones in Q2! Which is more than _3 times_ as much as Apple and Nokia haven't even released any new flagships yet.
Yeah sure Nokia is doomed...hahahaha.....NOT!
Mr Mark wrote:Yes I know, what's your point?Yes I know, what's your point?
Yes I know, what's your point?
One day you're going to be able to follow the context of a thread - which was that 'normal' people not 'geeks' buy Nokias. Probably about the time you finally figure out how to register an account I would imagine.
probably about the same time you figure out not everyone wants to register accounts, or even use fake accounts, and just take advantage of the easy route. At least i sign. But we should all bow to your wisdom, shouldn't we? Btw, how's your stock analysis on this company going?
The real point of an earnings call is to hilight what they did right and wrong this past quarter, and the market has spoken pretty well on this, haven't they - selling to 'normal' ppl at the expense of quality and growth just doesn't cut it. I would more qualify 'cheap' people on this, which really describes nokia's situation. Would you qualify the people that want to buy the high end product but can justify nokia as 'not normal'? The only thing they did right was they avoided a loss. You can be a cheerleader all u want mark, but i doubt it will help symbian and nokia dig out of their hole.
-Gene
Unregistered wrote:probably about the same time you figure out not everyone wants to register accounts, or even use fake accounts, and just take advantage of the easy route. At least i sign. But we should all bow to your wisdom, shouldn't we? Btw, how's your stock analysis on this company going? The real point of an earnings call is to hilight what they did right and wrong this past quarter, and the market has spoken pretty well on this, haven't they - selling to 'normal' ppl at the expense of quality and growth just doesn't cut it. I would more qualify 'cheap' people on this, which really describes nokia's situation. Would you qualify the people that want to buy the high end product but can justify nokia as 'not normal'? The only thing they did right was they avoided a loss. You can be a cheerleader all u want mark, but i doubt it will help symbian and nokia dig out of their hole.
-Gene
I meant "can't justify nokia"....
-Gene
manual_ wrote:I'd argue that it's actually the geeks who are willing to live with clunky UI, unstability that forces them to tweak the device and all other kinds of problems they can solve and be proud afterwards.
It's normal people, who want their job done quickly, efficiently who will will dismiss Symbian as too high-maintenance and go for more usable, stable, faster and visually appealing platforms.
I also share this sentiment. When I first got my N97, I was frustrated with its instability. Now months later, I have gotten it to work the way I want and am very happy with it now. I definitely would not recommend it to most other people though unless they are really willing to spend a lot of time tweaking it and dealing with instability issues on the way.
Nokia seems to be doing rather well for the most part except for the high end smartphone market. I think this market will grow the most as more and more people over time will want their phone to do more than make a call. I see many web sites provide apps for smartphones. Most of these websites have apps for the iPhone, Android and even Blackberry. However, very few and none of the ones I frequent have anything for Symbian. Even if Nokia uses Symbian for mid to low end smartphones, there does not seem to be much support or apps for Symbian users compared to iPhone or Android. I can live without apps for my phone as I can simply browse the web site or mobile web site. However, I am disheartened by the lack of apps and I would expect many others would be as well and may choose a smartphone that has greater app support.
Does anyone have the sources of the data behind the numbers of the graph for smart phone OS share?
anyone saw this in El Reg?
great interview with Juhani Risku by Andrew Orlowski - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/22/nokia_manifesto_risku/
Unregistered wrote:Does anyone have the sources of the data behind the numbers of the graph for smart phone OS share?
I use a spreadsheet to keep track of the numbers. They come from either the manufacturers themselves (where available) or the figures released by the likes of Gartner / Canalys etc.
There are some variances between these sources at times, but generally they are not that significant (+/- 0.5 million). Good enough for a quick glance chart / graph anyway.
The figures for Q2 2010 do include some estimates for WebOS and Windows Mobile. Symbian number are Nokia results + a bit for SE and MOAP phones (I actually used last quarters delta numbers as a basis, good Vivaz sales might mean its a bit more than I've guestimated).
Apple released it figures earlier this week. RIM released the week before (although their quarterly number are slightly displaced in the calendar).
What about the Google/Android numbers?
Sorry forgot to mention the Android numbers. For Q2 2010 the numbers are based on some initial guidance from an analyst. They would match with the stated daily activation figures that Google have mentioned a few times in the last couple of months (middle of May it was 100,000 per day IIRC), which I guess gives some confidence to the number. For earlier quarters they are based on Gartner numbers and I think a couple of Google numbers.
I should say, out of all the figures, these are the ones most subject to change (I update the spreadsheet as more information becomes available). If I was being very cautious I would suggest +/- 2 million, but I think that's very cautious (because of relatively short Android time span its a bit tricky to model Android numbers right now). See above comment about generally +/- 0.5 million. These Android numbers should get firmed up shortly I would imagine, but are certainly in the right area.
As I said before the intention is provide an at a glance comparison (which is why its graph rather than a table). It is worth bearing in mind that the way numbers are counted does vary between methods. For a good comparison (in terms of methodology) you might want to compare figures from the same analyst quarter on quarter (but of course these are not always released publicly and always come later).
Thanks for the responses!
RollerSMB wrote:No offense, but that would be a pretty weak argument. Just look around, the people who have 5800 or similar (eg, my wife and daughter) don't install things on them, and they just work. It's quick and efficient to make a call. What's more, it works well as a *phone*, ie good reception. I'd be willing to bet that normal people care more about the stability of a phone call than the stability of running apps.I understand the frustrations of people who got sucked in by the n97, (I own one myself!), but there's no need to lose objectivity. Sales are sales, and you can't deny that 24 million is a decent chunk. Nokia are doing something right here, and hopefully they can win back the nerds that with the n8. The idea of a discount for n97 users that was floated here somewhere, now that would be a great way to win back some of the more vocal bashers.
I'm not denying the fact Nokia sells a lot of phones. But then again it's not earning that much as they are low end devices. People buy them because they are cheap. So they make Nokias statistics look kinda good but they don't say that people like and buy Nokia smartphones because they are great smartphones. They buy them (as you say) not to install things on them or use "advanced" smartphone features but because they are able to make a call. And if you "install things" and try to use them...well that's a different story. Nokia and Nokia fans shouldn't be too happy about that.
And that iPhone reception problems argument is getting old. I know some people think Jobs is the devil in the flesh and will not listen and believe a single word he says but in my book 2 dropped calls out of a hundred is a far less significant problem than having to remove a battery because of a system crash or waiting for an app to do what it's supposed to do and so on and so on...So much for the (overall) stability part😉
Reception/connectivity on my mini isn't actually so hot. It also drops calls sometimes. Add WiFi disconnecting quite often, active bluetooth headset connection causing the phone to slow down significantly and Nokias claim of "prioritizing antenna performance" starts to sound quite shameless.
The article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/22/nokia_manifesto_risku/page4.html
is an excellent read and I'd love to see that posted as it makes a more valuable top story than yesterdays post on how great a phone N97mini is:d
It exposes the root of a problem - Nokia is a slow and bloated corporation lacking real leadership and vision. And it shows in their financial results.
Nokia sells smartphones as dumbphones to the masses.... Thier sales goes up, thier profits and margins per handset goes down YoY. Soon they will be making nothing.
Nice future...
They make phones that are pretty good hardware wise. The problem is the ancient Symbian system for those who still lives under a rock. They need to move to Android and take all the sales with Nokia's strong points such as better camera, video recording and excellent reception.