One of the things that first aiders are taught is triage – the initial assessment of patients to work out which ones have a genuine problem and need to be looked at as soon as possible; and which ones are shouting loudly because they’ve broken a nail. In the online noise of social media and blogging, that triage skill is just as vital, because the companies making the loudest noises aren’t always telling the whole story.
Read on in the full article.
Well, this actually says more about Nokia's ability to market and advertise. They're not the only ones who are awful at it; so is Microsoft.
Both companies are sort of like that balding older relative, who dresses up in their polyester leisure suit and gold chains, and strives to be "hip", "with it" and "into what the kids are doing these days". It's painful to watch.
Well, fair play for putting the numbers in context, however there's a different side to this.
I don't have the numbers to hand (I'll leave them for a journalist to dig out 😉 ) but I think the number show despite the lower volume that iPhones are more profitable for apple than symbian phones for nokia.
However, I do wonder what profit google sees from Android?
So which numbers matter? Number of devices? Market share? Profit? And who do they matter to? These are the interesting questions...
Market-share matters to iPhone users until you mention it is going down. Then they move the goalposts and claim profits matter more.
Has Nokia become British now? I could have sworn they didn't come from Southwark
Very well said Ewan. I couldn't put it better...
Unregistered wrote:Market-share matters to iPhone users until you mention it is going down. Then they move the goalposts and claim profits matter more.
Nice point...even for someone anonymous 😉 but I will change the word users...to hardcore fanboys. Not every iPhone user really cares about how well their device sells!
richardyates wrote:Has Nokia become British now? I could have sworn they didn't come from Southwark
Nokia's in Finland IIRC. SYMBIAN (which is whom Steve is referencing) on the other hand...
1 Boundary Row
Southwark
London SE1 8HP
United Kingdom
When Nokia start shipping phones with a brand new operating system people might sit up and take notice. Surely even the most ardent Nokia/Symbian fans realize that the N95 was their last great handset. Godspeed Meego
Jimmy1 wrote:Well, this actually says more about Nokia's ability to market and advertise. They're not the only ones who are awful at it; so is Microsoft.Both companies are sort of like that balding older relative, who dresses up in their polyester leisure suit and gold chains, and strives to be "hip", "with it" and "into what the kids are doing these days". It's painful to watch.
What a wierd planet you must live on.
Face the fact, Symbian phones are not exciting nor do they make the users want to do things with the phone. This is the fact that continues to escape the "Nokia sells millions more phones" a month crowd. The phones they sell are not high-end phones and they simply continue to be boring, workman phones that no one is interested in just pulling out of their pocket to play with. The last phone that had this type of feel was the N95. The N86 was okay but abandoned. The same fate is on the horizon with the N8. Great hardware, same old boring OS and a complete lack of eco-system (Ovi has fail all over it). Android and Apple have proven that hardware with a good (excellent on Apple's part) eco-system is what matters. Users want more than just the ability to make phone calls or send text messages. They want a bit of flash on their phones and Nokia simply does not deliver this.
Well, for the granddaddy of smartphones OSes, the numbers surely are kinda of worrying. So you mean Symbian, which is around for how many years now? activates 300K devices a day while Android, a newcomer, activates 200K? So Android needed 1 year and a half (or even just one year of real presence on the market) to get to 2/3 of Symbian? When I look at the numbers, I don't see "largest smartphone market share" but "fast-eroding market share".
Unregistered wrote:What a wierd planet you must live on.
Summed it up quite well
We have to ask what ultimately matters - why are we making any comparisons anyway? Well, profits matter if you're an objective investor in Apple or Nokia stocks who's solely interested in the return they'll get. At the moment, you'd choose Apple. This profit comparison completely ignores anything other than return on investment, in which case you can also compare those stocks with anything else - sugar, oil, department stores, banks, you name it.
Some have suggested that Apple having more profits allows them to develop better products (i.e. making batter technology available to consumers) and make better acquisitions of other companies - all for the benefit of consumers. And yet, who are we seeing doing WAY more of that than Apple? Nokia. E.g. they bought Navteq and, bluntly, have given millions of poorer people very full featured free sat nav, not just on the high end (yep, high end) N8, but on the real cheapo 5800, 52xx series devices.
So, what ultimately matters, if you're not some disinterested stock investor, is making the best technology available to the most people in the world. Nokia are far and away the clear leaders in this the world over. Not only the recent series comparing low end Androids with low end Nokia Symbian phones, but lots of other anecdotes, have shown Android simply can't compete AT ALL with Nokia Symbian phones at the low end. iPhone isn't even in the running. Nokia take a tiny fraction of the profits other handset makers take per handset, but so many more millions of people benefit as a result.
Then there's the high end. All of you about to buy an N8, know that you are getting a piece of technology that is WELL in advance of anything else you can buy out there not only for a similar price, but at any higher price too. Look at the N8 features (I'm talking the quality of the N8 implementations, not just the presence in a feature list)! They blow all other Androids and iPhone and Blackberries out of the water.
All this 'noise' in the marketplace is because, for a short time, Nokia's UI, developer support, and app store wasn't quite as good as the competition. End of story. The big question for everyone is, if Nokia/Symbian have been selling that many more smartphones with their 'old', 'crap' S60 5th edition handsets, what happens when they flex their muscles, upgrade Symbian to ^3 and then ^4, and produce even better hardware like the incredible N8? What happens when the Ovi Store makes devs real money, and sells apps in the many millions? What happens when developer support is BETTER than on iPhone or Android? Well all those things are happening now.
Furthermore, what happens when the phone options for hundreds of millions of poorer consumers are a sophisticated Nokia/Symbian smartphone with free nav, app store, etc etc, or a limited featurephone? What happens when much of that growth is in emerging markets, where Nokia already reign, and Symbian vs other smartphones is already no contest?
I find it hard to see any other future than overwhelming Nokia/Symbian dominance worldwide, as the vastly more efficient Symbian continually outclasses Android at the lowest end where people are upgrading featurephones to smartphones. On the app front (noting that Nokia has more functionality built in anyway than rival platforms), eventually developers will realise the new gold rush is on Ovi/Symbian/Meego, not on the oversaturated iPhone and Android, where most don't make money.
Unregistered wrote:Face the fact, Symbian phones are not exciting nor do they make the users want to do things with the phone. [blah blah blah] Users want a bit of flash on their phones and Nokia simply does not deliver this.
Oh yes? Wierd, I thought the N8 blew all other Androids and iPhones away on the 'doing things' front, and the 'flash' front - both the flash you mean and may I say Adobe Flash too ha ha 😉
Show me a competitor with the camera quality of an N8, the HDMI connectivity, the true Dolby 5.1 out, the WebTV, the USB on the Go, the media ability, the graphics power and so on.
You say confidently what 'users' want, and yet 'users' are buying so many Nokia/Symbian phones every day that it's outselling it's rivals by "each week there are 200,000 more Symbian phones out there than iPhones, and almost 500,000 more than Android.".
Unregistered wrote:Well, for the granddaddy of smartphones OSes, the numbers surely are kinda of worrying. So you mean Symbian, which is around for how many years now? activates 300K devices a day while Android, a newcomer, activates 200K? So Android needed 1 year and a half (or even just one year of real presence on the market) to get to 2/3 of Symbian? When I look at the numbers, I don't see "largest smartphone market share" but "fast-eroding market share".
1.) Android is not taking significant share from Symbian. Both are growing rapidly. Android is merely accelerating from a standstill to find a peak before it dips again.
2.) Did you read the article? Here's some facts from it: "each week there are 200,000 more Symbian phones out there than iPhones, and almost 500,000 more than Android. Symbian is not being caught and left behind, in terms of raw numbers they are pulling away by a significant percentage every single day."
Please stop trying to dispute facts.
And just to knock this one on the head, there are about 15 - 20 million Androids (give or take a few million) out in the world. There are over 350 million Symbian phones and Symbian is increasing that lead over Android by half a million a week. 'nuff said 😊
Unregistered wrote:Face the fact, Symbian phones are not exciting nor do they make the users want to do things with the phone. This is the fact that continues to escape the "Nokia sells millions more phones" a month crowd. The phones they sell are not high-end phones and they simply continue to be boring, workman phones that no one is interested in just pulling out of their pocket to play with. .
Yep! That's the one - you are correct.
Because the VAST majority of phone users are not boring geeks that waste time poking their smartphones, they are actually normal humans with social lives and well.... lives.
They are not interested in ARM N-doodah and sad-git 3GL 3D acceleratorisers and capacitive-bum-tappers. They just want workman phones to do a basic task and then put straight away again so they can do something interesting.
I'll rewrite your first few words correctly:
"Face the fact, smartphones are not exciting"
ajck wrote:Some have suggested that Apple having more profits allows them to develop better products (i.e. making batter technology available to consumers) and make better acquisitions of other companies - all for the benefit of consumers. And yet, who are we seeing doing WAY more of that than Apple? Nokia. E.g. they bought Navteq and, bluntly, have given millions of poorer people very full featured free sat nav, not just on the high end (yep, high end) N8, but on the real cheapo 5800, 52xx series devices.
Interesting that my �60 TomTom unit complete with car power lead, cradle with window attachment and carry case was half the price of a 5800, and the TomTom is vastly superior.
Unregistered wrote:
Show me a competitor with the camera quality of an N8, the HDMI connectivity, the true Dolby 5.1 out, the WebTV, the USB on the Go, the media ability, the graphics power and so on.
I liked the way you cherry picked the heart of the post. Like most of the Symbian-nots, you are hung up on hardware. Do you really think that neither Apple nor Android can match Nokia hardware for hardware? Show me a Nokia service, starting with Ovi that simply does not suck. Ovi Files, gone, Ovi this or that, gone. Great, you have a "wonderful" phone with undetermined how crappy it is software, and no eco-system to back it up. Personally I don't think that neither Apple nor Android need to catch Nokia in terms of market share. Nokia is going for the bottom feeder markets and not selling premium phones while the other guys are selling in the higher paying markets. If Nokia had to compete with only one phone such as Apple or even with a few phones like Android, they would be blown off the map. What offering do you think Nokia can put forth to compete with the HTC Desire, or Galaxy S, or iPhone 4?
Unregistered wrote:Interesting that my �60 TomTom unit complete with car power lead, cradle with window attachment and carry case was half the price of a 5800, and the TomTom is vastly superior.
And of course your TomTom can run thousands of downloadable apps, browser the web, make phone calls, has a camera with Carl Zeiss lens and flash, is light and pocketable, and so on and so on. As for the sat nav superiority bit - it's not superior in any meaningful way that makes it worth getting as a sat nav vs. Ovi Maps.
'nuff said 😊
It would be interesting to place dots on a world map. Start with all major technology/mobile blogs. Or, lacking a physical workplace, their editors' locations. Finally add three more dots: Cupertino, Mountain View and Espoo.
Which dot is separated from the rest?
Unregistered wrote:..... What offering do you think Nokia can put forth to compete with the HTC Desire, or Galaxy S, or iPhone 4?
N8. Blows the rest away without even trying. Ecosystem? Nokia has it all - check the range of Ovi services. Whatever your opinion, millions are using them happily. Apps? Many apps on Ovi have had well over a million downloads.
Next!
Unregistered wrote:N8. Blows the rest away without even trying. Ecosystem? Nokia has it all - check the range of Ovi services. Whatever your opinion, millions are using them happily. Apps? Many apps on Ovi have had well over a million downloads.Next!
I guess we'll see when it launches, if it ever does.
Face the fact, Symbian phones are not exciting nor do they make the users want to do things with the phone. This is the fact that continues to escape the "Nokia sells millions more phones" a month crowd. The phones they sell are not high-end phones and they simply continue to be boring, workman phones that no one is interested in just pulling out of their pocket to play with. The last phone that had this type of feel was the N95. The N86 was okay but abandoned. The same fate is on the horizon with the N8. Great hardware, same old boring OS and a complete lack of eco-system (Ovi has fail all over it). Android and Apple have proven that hardware with a good (excellent on Apple's part) eco-system is what matters. Users want more than just the ability to make phone calls or send text messages. They want a bit of flash on their phones and Nokia simply does not deliver this.
Great post Reda EK. You nailed it.
As a user of the iPhone and several Nokia's, I can say with confidence if I were forced to choose, I would go with the iPhone every time simply because it does more and has a more reliable eco-system. I remember the week if not month long problems of Ovi Sync, Ovi Files not working properly and let's not forget the multiple log-ins just to access Ovi services. Nokia had a head start on Apple and they squandered it on whatever they squandered it on. Ovi is a joke when compared to the Apple App Store. The Android is getting its legs but they too will surpass the Ovi offerings. I have not even gone into the ease of use features that Android and Apple have over Symbian. Just to make a test, take an iPhone or Android phone and give it to an older person. Ask them to make a phone call and see how long it takes. Do the same test with ANY Nokia phone and see how long it takes. The previous two OS's are for the common person that does not want to tweak or hope that they can get through the day without of memory errors or screen freezes while Symbian is for someone with a lot of patience, and who does not mind the constant annoyances that come bundled within.
Unregistered wrote:And of course your TomTom can run thousands of downloadable apps, browser the web, make phone calls, has a camera with Carl Zeiss lens and flash, is light and pocketable, and so on and so on. As for the sat nav superiority bit - it's not superior in any meaningful way that makes it worth getting as a sat nav vs. Ovi Maps.'nuff said 😊
No, not enough said. All that is completely missing the point. The point that I answered was the suggestion that the 5800 brough sat-nav into the hands of "poor people". Which is false because Sat-navs are cheap items, cheaper than phones.
And if I read any-more Dilbert-speak wank-words like "EcoSystem"! GRRRR! F***ing boring nurds.
Unregistered wrote:Great post Reda EK. You nailed it.As a user of the iPhone and several Nokia's, I can say with confidence if I were forced to choose, I would go with the iPhone every time simply because it does more and has a more reliable eco-system. I remember the week if not month long problems of Ovi Sync, Ovi Files not working properly and let's not forget the multiple log-ins just to access Ovi services. Nokia had a head start on Apple and they squandered it on whatever they squandered it on. Ovi is a joke when compared to the Apple App Store. The Android is getting its legs but they too will surpass the Ovi offerings. I have not even gone into the ease of use features that Android and Apple have over Symbian. Just to make a test, take an iPhone or Android phone and give it to an older person. Ask them to make a phone call and see how long it takes. Do the same test with ANY Nokia phone and see how long it takes. The previous two OS's are for the common person that does not want to tweak or hope that they can get through the day without of memory errors or screen freezes while Symbian is for someone with a lot of patience, and who does not mind the constant annoyances that come bundled within.
But I don't give a flying **** about any of these services. I might use them very occasionally.
BTW, some of these Android phones are bastards to work out how to make a call on. The Nokia phone with a keypad and a green "call" button is always easier for the older person to make a call on. "ANY" you said. Well I've tried your test with MY iPhone. The older person has to press a physical button, slide to unlock, then find the green "phone" touch screen button at the bottom to be faced with a screen full of contacts. Then they have to press the keypad button at the bottom. Watching them figure out how to end the call was hilarious.
Physical number pad is far more intuitive.
Reda EK wrote: the ecosystem is virtually zero i
Lie.
Unregistered wrote:No, not enough said. All that is completely missing the point. The point that I answered was the suggestion that the 5800 brough sat-nav into the hands of "poor people". Which is false because Sat-navs are cheap items, cheaper than phones.
I have yet to see a Tom Tom mounted on a motorbike for example. Not to say that it cannot be done 😊
Unregistered wrote:No, not enough said. All that is completely missing the point. The point that I answered was the suggestion that the 5800 brough sat-nav into the hands of "poor people". Which is false because Sat-navs are cheap items, cheaper than phones.And if I read any-more Dilbert-speak wank-words like "EcoSystem"! GRRRR! F***ing boring nurds.
Depends on the Sat-nav unit, but for the most part you are correct.
As for eco-system, you may not like the term but it is what it is.
Unregistered wrote:Lie.
The iPhone and Android influence reflects USA culture very well, there people expect to be spoon-fed and prefer not to put effort in. It's like their auto-cars versus Euro manual gearboxes. To them the stick-shift and clutch pedal is a terrible user interface. To the european it makes you more of a driver, and you put in a small amount of effort and practice and shifting become second-nature and you forget you are declutching and moving the gear lever.
Same with phones, Nokia, even the old Symbian isn't very difficult to use, if you just choose to engage a small amount of cerebral activity. People should try it more often, it does you good. Just like your body the brain, if not exercised, will become lardy and fat and gorged on a billion MaciPhone calories and App Store fries washed down with fl.oz's of sugar-syrup iTunes coke.
Unfortunately this dumbing down - drive-thru culture is affecting europe now too. I admire those nations such as France that are putting up some resistance. Alas even they are succumbing to the lard-arse land where those electric carts carry the obese through Disney parks.