Download! - Still broken on S60 5th Edition

Inspite of their being the special News&Info folder, quite a lot of the applications inside the applications are simply links to news sites!
That is simply insane!

It means somebody is adding new contnet to the Downloads!, but what a worthless crap are they adding.

I remember once seeing a folder called "Sales" right in the middle of some unrelated stuff. It had a bright yellow-red Sun icon, and inside were two hindu mythology themed games and SMS Spam Manager.
Maybe they were just taking the motorcycling lobster concept forward, but I find Download! rather psychedelic anyway 😊

But that was at least when Download! used to work - these days I only get a "file not found" error.

Another gripe besides the fraudulent prices: Has anyone tested this on an EDGE connection (you know, in indian subcontinent, one of the major markets for this, 3G and wi fi are still rare commodities)?

It doesn't work. The app won't even start downloading the catalogue.

Hello? Anybody home, Nokia?

IS there a market opportunity here? Where is the 3rd party who will step in and offer the ideal solution and clean up in the process?

IANAL, but awareness of consumer law is part of my dayjob. If I worked for Nokia, my advice to my superiors would be that the misleading pricing is unlawful in the UK. It's only a matter of time before somebody makes a formal complaint to their local Trading Standards Office.

Heh I actually went through that same thought process and procedure @ checking out Marble Maze Revolution from Download! . I was expecting a lot better from it on S60 5th edition. Sigh.

I just found out why I was getting the "file not found" error (this article prompted me to take another look at Download! after a gap of about a month)

When I opened the Download! app, I could see two catalogs named "Catalogs" and "Download!". Stay with me, please...
It was when I clicked on the Download! icon (no, not the one in the main menu, the catalog named Download! inside the Download! app, you know, next to the catalog named Catalogs), that I would get the "file not found" error.

I chose each one and did Options->Remove to remove the catalog. After the list was empty, I did a refresh again. This time it loaded a set of catalogs - Office, Fun & Achieve, Internet etc. These were inside the Download! catalog earlier. But now there is no Download! catalog. These catalogs are directly in the menu now. That explains the error. I was clicking on the Download! catalog which no longer existed server side, but which the refresh did not remove automatically.

Hope this helps someone.

A couple of points about Download!

1) AFAIK, a developer must use the Tanla (formerly OpenBit) License Manager to be incorporated into !Download. Using this license manager is not cheap.

2) !Download is only available to Forum Nokia PRO developers (see http://www.forum.nokia.com/I_Want_To/Go_to_Market/Nokia_Channels/). Forum Nokia PRO is invitation-only, and this explains why there are so few apps out there.

3) Again AFAIK, not telling the price of an item is illegal in the entire European Union. But even if it was not illegal, it is a prime example of how not to interact with potential customers.

In my view there is nothing more important right now for Nokia than fixing download. In terms of hardware, they are still ahead of the competition. But if they don't offer more accessible software soon, I think a lot of people will seriously consider switching to the competition, if they not already have.

This says it all about Download!
mobilephonedevelopment.com/archives/751

The problem is twofold:

1. The Download! catalogue is basically rubbish, and always has been. Any new Nokia owners who visit Download! may never go back there.

2. Even if users do visit Download! periodically, the content remains cr*p because it never seems to be updated.

It seems to me that Nokia have really missed a trick with Download!. Whether you like the iPhone or not, and whether or not you agree with Apple's restrictive policy (I personally don't), their App Store has clearly shown how things can be done, and possibly should be done.

I think iPhone users buy apps in iTunes on a PC/Mac, it's much easier on a big screen than on the phone and iTunes is already there to manage music/podcast/video. Nokia needs a similar combo app for music/video/applications. Having said that, a polished app store on the phone is also a must have.

Mobile Observer wrote:I think iPhone users buy apps in iTunes on a PC/Mac, it's much easier on a big screen than on the phone and iTunes is already there to manage music/podcast/video. Nokia needs a similar combo app for music/video/applications. Having said that, a polished app store on the phone is also a must have.

Couldnt agree more, thats what I have been saying for a while now.

Nokia does actually have an online store, of sorts, but its even more of a hash than the phone version.

Theres no search function,

The apps are not grouped correctly with the device you choose,

The same problem of it saying its free, and its actually a limited trial version,

There is so very little on there as to whats actually available.

Download, and the accompanying joke of the online version is among the 2 things that really confuse me about Nokia. It's just so shockingly bad, and reasonably easy to fix and sort out, from a company with the resources Nokia has.

I just don't understand it, I really don't.

A couple of comment/suggestions/questions to AAS staff:

[Yes, I agree Download sucks. I don't need to repeat any off that]

1) I distinctly recall Nokia having some kind of a survey on Download (or was it on the online app dowload service?) last fall. Have you guys at AAS tried to ask Nokia about what happened with it and what their plans are (you must know a ton of people in Nokia, and it would be worth a shot to try to talk to them and also convey your points to them directly)?

2) Second, why don't you guys actually tell Nokia that you are considering filing a complaint on the misleading pricing information? That would VERY likely get them off their butts at least on that particular point.

I guess its remotely conceivable that Download is not being developed due to something else being in the works or because its not considered strategically important compared to e.g. Ovi suite of services (which would arguably a mistaken strategic priorization but that's a matter of debate).

We have mentioned this to various people. I know that the necessary team saw the original article you mention (I think quite a few people internally forwarded it to them).

Nokia are aware of the issues and it is fairly obvious there will be developments in this area soon. However there's nothing in the way of details (Nokia folk are usually well media trained and don't give much away).

Some of the problems with Download do have reasonable(ish) explanations too. Most people do underestimate how hard it is to deliver this sort of thing within the context of how / where Nokia operates.

Despite this and the fact we know it being fixed / worked on it's not going to stop us saying it's still not good enough. Needless to say we'll probably complain about whatever comes next too.

If they are working on it, I hope it will be fully integrated into ovi and will be platform independent (unlike the new maps service, which is really great _if_ you have windows). And it can't be that impossible to achieve if most of its competitors (Apple, RIM, Microsoft, Google) are going down this road.

Rafe, thanks a lot for your quick response! I kinda suspected that you have talked to them and that it is more complicated than most realise. Having said that, I would LOVE you to elaborate (obviously in an article if possible, but if not, in this comment thread) on what are the factors that make it more complicated than most think? I think that would be very educational (certainly for me at least)! 😊

At viipottaja's request here are some of the reasons:

Difficulty in making it available in multiple markets. There are different legal requirements for each market with this sort of thing. We already see this with a lot of Noki's Ovi services. There's obvious benefits to have something simpler (more controlled) that you can have available in all markets (Download! as it is now). It's not just legal requirements either - think about localisation in terms of language, terms and conditions, currencies, payment processing etc etc. Creating a app store platform that is flexible enough to deal with this sort of thing is hard...

Variances within applications - there's multiple way developers collect money - be it via OpenBit's LM or similar, via aggregators, via operators... Chances are for a store to work you'll have to create a standard way of doing payments. Developers will have to support that. Trials? Subscriptions? How does this play against what's in the marketplace already? [N.B. Only freeware in Android marketplace at launch]

You have to partner with people and there is a cost to that. It's quite easy to this and be transparent about it and of low cost when you're delivering to a limied market. BUT it will go up the more devices you have on the market and will go up as your ecosystem get more complex. Nokia's mobile ecosystem is enormous... Yes this is a bit of cop out, but it's also true.

Multiple devices - it harder to do with multiple devices - more testing (yes most things will just work, but not always... This is an area where legacy and wide platform reach hurts.

Operators - Nokia still sells most of its phone trough operators / carriers. They are the main customers and what they want goes. They're unlikely to approve of app stores on lower end phones, especially on devices where they have their own download type offering (even if it is just cruddy Java stuff). Nokia will therefore be more inclined to spend time and money on the requirements they do want (e.g. look at the fuss Ovi has and is still causing). Some operators will even remove Download (and that was designed to keep them happy by including pSMS revenue)! I personally suspect this is the biggest single reason Nokia hasn't done much in this area until a year ago. Of course once the success of the app store became apparent clearly a response was needed... but it will take time, and the operator issue is still the elephant in the room.

Ironically it's actually easier for new entrants focused on the high end (Android, iPhone) as there's no pre-existing framework i.e. its not something new, its part of the package...

In the Symban World apps stores have kind of fallen between the responsibility of Symbian Ltd., Manufacturers (like Nokia), and operators. All would probably liek to do them, but it seems to me that there hasn't been the will.

That said it should be possible, but its not a simple case of taking a list of applications and making them available in a client.

Please note this isn't intended to be complete and its off the cuff rather than carefully written (and there's probably stuff missing).

While you no doubt have a point, I also think it's a bit of a cop-out.

Nokia are a European company and, thanks to the EU, there is more-or-less a single market and set of laws for all Western and Central European countries. It would be relatively easy for Nokia to create an online store for Europe; if Apple have managed it, then I'm sure Nokia could manage it if they were truly interested.

My impression is that they're not that bothered, otherwise they would have already introduced something akin to the Apple App Store. Let's face it, they could make all the Beta Labs apps available via Download! if they could be bothered; that would already be a great improvement to what's currently on offer....

Funny how nobody mentioned the elephant in the room (if I missed a comment, please forgive me), the Apple App Store. What an innovative idea, huh? 500 million downloads in 6 months (compared to 100 million downloads in 10 years for Handango).

The Apple Store is awesome and provides such a level of exposition to developers that they can afford to charge less for their products. A game like Marble Revolution would cost something like 99 cents at the Apple Store.

Nokia has to dump the Download! altogether and start from scratch and come up with something like the Apple Store. More and more I see myself downloading apps for my iPod Touch and less for my N95. One day, I may dump the N95 and just go for an iPhone (well, of course they would have to tweak it a little bit and improve the camera).

sjhong - agreed - it's a very good experience. Part of the reason Download is attracting more complaints is because of the iPhone and G1 app stores. That said they both have their own problems too.

buster - I probably should have emphasized the time element more, but yes they could have probably done more in the interim. Then again, as edge users, we're far more aware of these things. The vast majority of Nokia's customers will not notice... on the other hand those self same people could create a support nightmare if beta apps were offered. I suppose this is just another example of how things are more complex in the real world that we would really like.

As Rafe points out, retailing software online is not a simple matter, and network operators may also cause complications. Even if you can do something technically, there may be a legal/financial nightmare in actually deploying it on phones.

BUT... the bottom line is that Nokia already has deployed much better on-phone shops such as Nokia Maps, Nokia Music and N-Gage, all of which are streets ahead of Download, and which are bundled with phones in their firmware.

Why can't Download be at least as good as Maps, NMS or N-Gage? I don't think that's an unreasonable demand.

And why isn't Download better integrated with Ovi services? Why can't Download act as a gateway to NMS tracks as ringtones for example, or offer N-Gage games? Why does Download have older versions of Nokia's own apps, when newer versions are already available?

All other parts of S60 and Ovi have constantly evolved and improved over the years, but Download now is the same as Download when it began. There's just no excuse for that situation. Everything else in S60 5th Edition is greatly improved or going in the right direction, but Download has stood completely still.

@rafe:
Whatever problems the iTunes store may have, they don't come close to eclipsing its virtues (I can't say anything about the Android store since I don't own a G1). Some good points that Nokia/Symbian should study hard:
- ALL apps available for iPhone/iPod Touch are there (not counting the jailbroken ones).
- The prices are extremely accessible (I see this as the most important point).
- When you download an app, it's yours and tied to your account, not to your device.
- When the developer updates the app, it gets updated in your device as well.

The other company that has a brilliant online store is TomTom.

sjhong wrote:Funny how nobody mentioned the elephant in the room (if I missed a comment, please forgive me), the Apple App Store. What an innovative idea, huh? 500 million downloads in 6 months (compared to 100 million downloads in 10 years for Handango).

The Apple Store is awesome and provides such a level of exposition to developers that they can afford to charge less for their products. A game like Marble Revolution would cost something like 99 cents at the Apple Store.

Hear hear. The difference between the 6 months 500 million downloads from AppStore and the 10 year 100 million downloads from Handango is staggering. AFAIK no Symbian/RIM/Palm/WinMO releated site has ever released download figures until Apple started to do so, this is a good sign of the industry becoming more transparent.

And it is now absolutely clear that AppStore is where the money is right now.
And not only for applications. Imagine what would happen if you buy ringtones and wallpapers like that. Not by using SMS subscription schemes that everybody hates. Why on earth are device manufacturers leaving all that money lying on the table?

simple fact, you don't need to be a lawyer to understand, if something is not free, you cannot represent it as free. being new to symbian, coming from the winmo world, i am presently enjoying a 5800, which i bought because of the touch screen (very nice), but it needs some extra software to make it totally useful to me to read office docs and pdf's. having been pointed to download by today's email, i pushed the button and, lo and behold, there was a pdf reader, marked as "free" which i then downloaded only to discover that it's a fifteen day trial and then pay or perish. accordingly, it is not "free" it is "trial". for a number of reasons, misrepresentation amongst them, there is an action lying here. if you live in the usa, and have had the same experience whether with the 5800 or any other nokia phone, contact me: [email][email protected][/email].

apropos my previous message, if you reside in the usa and have been victimized by the nokia download "free" misrepresentation, please use new email: [email][email protected][/email]. thanks.

svdwal wrote:Hear hear. The difference between the 6 months 500 million downloads from AppStore and the 10 year 100 million downloads from Handango is staggering./QUOTE]

Apps store has done amazingly well, but those figures are pretty silly comparisons.

Handangos 100 million is literally all from sold software. How much of that 500 million is free fart programs, ebooks, free games, 0,99� games and so forth?

[QUOTE=svdwal;408534
And it is now absolutely clear that AppStore is where the money is right now.
And not only for applications. Imagine what would happen if you buy ringtones and wallpapers like that. Not by using SMS subscription schemes that everybody hates. Why on earth are device manufacturers leaving all that money lying on the table?

Apple isn't making any money directly with app store either. This was confirmed by Apple itself when their Q3 2008 financial where released. It is basicly the same situation that Aple has had with their music store. I other words, Apple's music/software stores operate on break even or tiny profit basis. Those stores are just used to drive hardware sales.

Tzer2,

I got a chance to take a look at the 5800 XPressMusic Download app.
While all the issues that you have highlighted are real and the essential problems related to the business model and content still remain, I feel it would have been only fair to mention that there have been some major additions to the client (I use an e90, so I am not sure if the new features that I see in the XpressMusic had already been introduced in some other recent phone)

Compared to the e90, the refresh is about an order of magnitude faster.
The folder structuring is not completely insane - even in the screenshot you have included.
The new download manager is quite useful :
- the ability to download files in the background and to download multiple files at once.
- The progress display for each file is nice.
- The acts of downloading and installing are now separate - so you can first download a file and choose to install it as many times as you want.
- there are still a few quirks : if a download does not complete successfully, download thinks the file is already there, so it doesn't try to download it again. You have to remove ALL content from download and do a refresh to make it download the file again.

I don't feel "Download in S60 5th Edition is slightly better in some ways, faster and more reliable" is an accurate description. IMHO Nokia has put in some real effort into improving their client software.

No offence....