Nokia N86 next firmware to include Face Detection

When is the new firmware Expected??

Hope this fixes most of the stability issues. Showed my n86 to a mate and the screen couldn't even flip properly without hanging for a few secs while his year old N79 screen's flipped with ease.

besides needed camera improvements, I also hope Nokia will correct some of the annoying software glitches as well:

1. When you select Mass memory as default location for your images/video, they don't appear in Photos under Captured but under All (Captured folder is empty)

2. This rotation issue, upon unlocking the phone, for a sec or two phone is kind of "confused".

3. More free memory (RAM). At the moment with only few apps installed I have 51.7MB free

4. Standby screen - wallpaper isn't full screen (like with 6720 for example), top and bottom parts of the screen are outside wallpaper

5. Overall speed, I have feeling OS is catching up with me while browsing through menu.

Cheers,
Miki

If this will have face detection, will it be able to focus on multiple faces? If not and when there are 2 or more faces, which one does it focus on?

prettier I guess 😊 Good point btw, any clue how many faces it can recognize?

Cheers,
Miki

Well, as a camera can only focus on one 'plane' at once (leaving aside the new EDoF units), I'd guess it will assume that the people/faces are standing together, posing, and will simply focus on any of them.

"Overall file size is also smaller for each image."

How is this a good thing? Nokia already over-compresses all its photo files!

Ok, so focus is on one face only. Still not a bad option.

Some of the standalone camera can focus on multiple faces (I have one that does). But then those are standalone cameras.. 😊

Unregistered wrote:"Overall file size is also smaller for each image."

How is this a good thing? Nokia already over-compresses all its photo files!

Ah, but smaller is OK here because it's a result of there not being so many digital compression artefacts to err.... 'compress' in the final save to JPG.

I'm speculating a little here, but....

All for better image quality but I guess I've been lucky and have had no mentionable problems with the 11 firmware. Still, though, I seem to favor my 82's photos over what I've been so far getting from the 86.

Is the new OVI client an application (like the n95) or is it still the web page of the OVI store?

malerocks wrote:Some of the standalone camera can focus on multiple faces (I have one that does). But then those are standalone cameras.. 😊

Could you clarify, how on earth it is possible to focus on multiple faces (at the same time). It is obvious that there can be several faces detected, but how to focus? The lens can be at one position at once - that is it.

If the focal plane is set based on e.g. average distances between faces there is huge possibility to have only non-focused faces. So please tell me how it is done in your device, or tell which device it is.

Unregistered wrote:Could you clarify, how on earth it is possible to focus on multiple faces (at the same time). It is obvious that there can be several faces detected, but how to focus? The lens can be at one position at once - that is it.

If the focal plane is set based on e.g. average distances between faces there is huge possibility to have only non-focused faces. So please tell me how it is done in your device, or tell which device it is.

http://www.sony.co.in/product/dsc-t70

I am copying the relevant part here:

"Auto Focus Area - Multi-point AF(9 points)/ Centre-weighted AF/ Flexible Spot AF"

For any particular shot, the camera can do any one of these 3 focuses. The 1st one (Multi-point AF(9 points))is used in face detection mode for focusing on multiple faces.

This feature should also be included in the N82. I hope Nokia has plans to release a fw update with Face Detection...

malerocks wrote:I dont know how it is done, but the camera supposedly can focus on multiple faces at the same time in the same picture. Its a Sony Cybershot T70. Check out the spec sheet at this link:

http://www.sony.co.in/product/dsc-t70

I am copying the relevant part here:

"Auto Focus Area - Multi-point AF(9 points)/ Centre-weighted AF/ Flexible Spot AF"

For any particular shot, the camera can do any one of these 3 focuses. The 1st one (Multi-point AF(9 points))is used in face detection mode for focusing on multiple faces.

You misunderstand it - the camera is only focusing on one focal plane, not several - which as stated, is impossible with one lens.

Right, a few things to get off me chest...

1) Over the moon to hear about the new improvements to the Firmware, BUT, above all, I still want the myriad list of major bugs fixed, more than anything else, or new, especially as...

2) I have found yet another (albeit smaller) bug in version 11.043 to add to my massive list in the N86 Review Thread. In keeping with the N95 and many of it's Firmware versions, I now realise that the N86 will not properly remember, taught special words. "Gareth" for example - if I teach the phone this word (as it's not already in the dictionary, beleive it or not), then it remembers it for a while. Yet two days later, I try and type Gareth, and it doesn't even know it. (And no, I have not filled the entire Dictionary in just two days, to cause oldest words to drop of).

3) With this fancy new feature, will this mean that the Firmware that was meant to be out any time, has now been DELAYED, in order to accommodate this feature. Or is it the opposite - the screenshots and info above, hinting that the Firmware might be out before the week is out. If the former, then again, I would be ANGRY that the inclusion (even of a possibly useful feature like this), has delayed a Firmware update that many of us are truly desperate for!

4) Just to add to the 'multiple focusing' comments - a single lens CANNOT focus on multiple things at once. What stand-alone digital cameras do with MULTIPLE face recognition, is highlight all the detected faces with a white box, and then the PRIMARY detected face (it decides which one that is using various factors) usually gets a different coloured, or even shaped box/circling, to show this. Then it focuses on the PRIMARY detected face, or uses average weighting applied to the detected points, to then balance focusing, as well as white balance, etc etc. But it does NOT actually focus on more than one plane - this is, as has been said, quite impossible.

5) DEEP BREATH FOLKS - but I am not convinced that this Face Detection stuff is actually a good thing. I say that as an owner of currently FOUR standalone Digital Cameras, from two major manufacturers, two being D-SLR like, and two advanced compact. Indeed, one of my cameras is so new, it has Version 3 incarnation of the manufacturer's flavour of Face Detection - that with the fastest detection, widest detection angle of all, and automatic red eye correction and removal, using only the detected faces so as to avoid lipstick correction, as most others end up doing, thinking this is an 'eye' etc. And let me just say, that even with the THIRD incarnation of Face Detection, on a TRUE standalone Digital Camera from one of the market leaders, I still tend to turn it OFF nearly 95% of the time, as it simply does NOT do what it says on the tin often enough, or correctly enough, and it becomes easier and more reliable for me to use proper 'crosshair' focusing, using aim, lock, and recompose if needed even. So Face Detection in a Mobile Phone...? Time will tell, but I have my doubts - based though, as I say, on real world experiences on even a REAL camera. You never know though.

So, hope that adds info, as well as thought, to the mix.

But given how bug-ridden and unusable my N86 is currently, I will just be happy with an early firmware release, that simply fixes the massive major bugs, as listed by me in the N86 Review, Part 1 thread.

Ok, multi-face focusing or not, for now all I will say and accept is my camera detects multiple faces and then clicks a picture that has all the faces pretty clearly.

Regarding face detection not working properly in cameras, again for me, it works pretty well in the model that I am using. Agreed it does not detect ALL the faces and it also is conditional to the subjects been fairly well-lit when the faces are to be detected

shadamehr wrote:Right, a few things to get off me chest...

1) Over the moon to hear about the new improvements to the Firmware, BUT, above all, I still want the myriad list of major bugs fixed, more than anything else, or new, especially as...

2) I have found yet another (albeit smaller) bug in version 11.043 to add to my massive list in the N86 Review Thread. In keeping with the N95 and many of it's Firmware versions, I now realise that the N86 will not properly remember, taught special words. "Gareth" for example - if I teach the phone this word (as it's not already in the dictionary, beleive it or not), then it remembers it for a while. Yet two days later, I try and type Gareth, and it doesn't even know it. (And no, I have not filled the entire Dictionary in just two days, to cause oldest words to drop of).

3) With this fancy new feature, will this mean that the Firmware that was meant to be out any time, has now been DELAYED, in order to accommodate this feature. Or is it the opposite - the screenshots and info above, hinting that the Firmware might be out before the week is out. If the former, then again, I would be ANGRY that the inclusion (even of a possibly useful feature like this), has delayed a Firmware update that many of us are truly desperate for!

4) Just to add to the 'multiple focusing' comments - a single lens CANNOT focus on multiple things at once. What stand-alone digital cameras do with MULTIPLE face recognition, is highlight all the detected faces with a white box, and then the PRIMARY detected face (it decides which one that is using various factors) usually gets a different coloured, or even shaped box/circling, to show this. Then it focuses on the PRIMARY detected face, or uses average weighting applied to the detected points, to then balance focusing, as well as white balance, etc etc. But it does NOT actually focus on more than one plane - this is, as has been said, quite impossible.

5) DEEP BREATH FOLKS - but I am not convinced that this Face Detection stuff is actually a good thing. I say that as an owner of currently FOUR standalone Digital Cameras, from two major manufacturers, two being D-SLR like, and two advanced compact. Indeed, one of my cameras is so new, it has Version 3 incarnation of the manufacturer's flavour of Face Detection - that with the fastest detection, widest detection angle of all, and automatic red eye correction and removal, using only the detected faces so as to avoid lipstick correction, as most others end up doing, thinking this is an 'eye' etc. And let me just say, that even with the THIRD incarnation of Face Detection, on a TRUE standalone Digital Camera from one of the market leaders, I still tend to turn it OFF nearly 95% of the time, as it simply does NOT do what it says on the tin often enough, or correctly enough, and it becomes easier and more reliable for me to use proper 'crosshair' focusing, using aim, lock, and recompose if needed even. So Face Detection in a Mobile Phone...? Time will tell, but I have my doubts - based though, as I say, on real world experiences on even a REAL camera. You never know though.

So, hope that adds info, as well as thought, to the mix.

But given how bug-ridden and unusable my N86 is currently, I will just be happy with an early firmware release, that simply fixes the massive major bugs, as listed by me in the N86 Review, Part 1 thread.

I don't understand, I've hardly seen any bugs in this firmware. Maybe some very minor ones, but overall it seems like a very stable FW. I'm not buying Face detection either, but the photo quality is improved, we can always turn it off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field Explains how the multiple-face focus in (modern) cameras is achieved. The cue is that the N86 has an 'aperture', which is not present in normal (almost single lense) phone cameras. Concerning the multiple-plane focusing issue.. The camera measures all focusing points (distance) and then calculates the needed aperture to achieve apparent focus at multiple planes. Naturally, this is easy as the camera (lense, aperture and imaging sensor) are small in their physical size. Depth of field is not a problem at those diameters (This is a crude explanation and I'm leaving at lot of aspects out. If you're not into photography that won't matter anyway).

Taking a photo involves a lot of compromise. This is due to many facors, but basically the human eye (and sight) are still very much superior to ANY photograhphy techiques. Long story short, when a device is aimed for consumers none of that techical stuff matters. The compromises are made in the device per the makers choices in what to emphasize in taking a photo. The face-detection (or multiple-) is mainly implemented in consumer cameras (and is coming to phones) when a good face-shot is a desired. The camera software measures the lighting and color data based on a person's face (mainly) making the shot 'face-weighted'. When the system works, it produces very often good results.

Hi all,
I thought i will post some of my experiences with the new firmware which i updated recently thro NSU.
Good points:
1.I have not had even one freeze and hangup after updating.
2. The GPS signal on Garmin mobile is just amazing, i get a satellite lock under 1 min with it and after that i can even close the slide without losing the signal.
3. The buggy startup and shutdown is much quicker.

Not so good points:
1. The firmware is now unhackable, ie once i changed the product code i was unable to chage it back to the original with NSS.
2. The network reception was absolute crap but little better, but even my very old nokia 3230 has a better reception than the n86 with the new firmware. Hopefully this will be addressed in the next update, if there is one.
3. I had to do a hard reset to play video recordings because strangely there would be no video only sound.
If this is not the right thread can the mods move it to the right place, thanks

@ Unregistered (I wish people weren't allowed to do that - it makes it nightmare to respond to them, when there are SEVERAL so named posters) - so to the one who says he can't understand the issues with this Firmware.

Let me tell you this - I am a Nokia die-hard, and have had over fifty five Nokias at least.

The vast majority of the more recent ones were all Symbian.

I know my Nokias, and what should and shouldn't work.

And let me insist in strongest terms possible, this firmware is the WORST firmware I have ever seen in a Nokia, even early launch version Firmwares, and even more so than the N95 and all it's pre V20 fixes.

I have a whole long post about them in the N86 Review Part 1 thread on this forum, if you want to read detailed info about them.

But let me just say that for the majority of them, they are readily repeatable, and moreover, in the case of others, a complete deal breaker, in the sense that any bug that prevents you from using your phone at all, is deemed a MAJOR firmware issue to me. And it has at least one of those.

Even now, I cannot turn ON the screen auto-rotate feature, because if I do, coupled with the fact that I use a NUMERIC key-lock when my phone locks, then on random, but far too regular occasions, the screen rotates into landscape mode for no reason, as you slide the phone shut (or even after it being left alone untouched on some occasions).

And when it does this, on these occasions, then sliding it open and unlocking it fails to correctly rotate the screen. You can 'use' every aspect of the phone, the menus, texting etc. Except you can't really, cos of course the screen is in landscape, so you can't use it to text etc.

But when it does this, despite every other function working, one other trait of this bug, is that the power button no longer works. So the ONLY way to fix the problem is pull the battery!

And as I am one of these people that takes the back cover off as little as possibly needed, to prevent it getting more and more loose, or broken, this is dire. (You are aware that the FM Transmitter antenna is actually in the back COVER itself, not on the phone itself, aren't you - so this is far from ideal having to keep removing the back, just to switch my phone off to fix this every time.

Certainly I would suspect Nokia view a bug like this to be a MAJOR/CRITICAL - as anything that prevents the power button from then working to power OFF the phone is classed as Critical one would expect.

Admittedly, many people - even perhaps the MAJORITY of users, will of course never ever see many of these bugs I have listed.

But that doesn't stop it being a bug, just because MOST don't suffer it, as long as several others do regularly. Like I say, in this case, it could be that it needs both Screen Rotate to be ON, as well as the Numeric Key-lock ON, and perhaps most people won't use such a combination etc.

But every single bug I have listed, is real, genuine, and sadly, all too repeatable, at least for this user.

I'm still taking photos in normal orientation mode, with phone held like a camera, landscape on, that for who knows what good reason, automatically choose to rotate into portrait once saved. I can understand it FAILING to rotate a portrait shot when the sensor to do this is turned ON...

...But CHOOSING to instead rotate a perfectly correctly taken LANDSCAPE shot...? No phone should be doing this under any circumstance - it's not how the sensor is even designed to work.

Add in the issues as documented in here, where in the Photos Application (which I hate), from the list of options as to what type of images you want to browse, Captured Photos don't even appear in the "Captured" option, if you save to Mass Storage - you have to use "All Images" instead. How funny!

Or add in the current firmware bug where Special Words you teach the phone are forgotten again just as quick, and I have to ask you, what version of Firmware YOU are running on, when at least these sort of bugs are common to all, if you are supposedly not suffering them

And as for speed, again, the Messaging application - it takes me AGES to be able to start typing, when clicking reply to a message, for the actual 'editor' to come up and be ready to take the letters I enter, as well as even just the sub-menu option for what type of message to reply with, actually coming up, when you click the Reply menu option itself.

Ney, it's the slowest, buggiest Firmware I have yet seen, and I have plenty of other Nokias here to directly test it against if you wish, from two 6120c's to two E51's, two N82's, an E90, and an E71, just for starters what I own myself. I can readily lay my hands on a 5800, and a 6220c if you want to include these too, but as the person who set them both up for family members, I can attest to the correct decent speed and response time for the Messaging Application on all of those devices, compared to the N86.

And alas, I have firmware wiped/re-installed the software, no less than THREE times now on my N86, to rule out "Application Clutter" etc as the cause.

BUT...

I say all of this without a single worry of getting worked up... because I love the POTENTIAL of the N86, and it's hardware features.

So I am hopeful that ongoing Firmware updates will fix many, if not all, of these problems.

Provided of course, Nokia are taking note of what the problems are, and not just adding in neat NEW features, to an already broke Firmware.

Fix the bugs first please Nokia...

Like I used to say in my days as a Councillor...

People aren't going to appreciate even the finest free entry art galleries, museums, or blinking eye bridges or Angels we might give them, if we aren't emptying their bins each week properly!

So if you are going to give your populace all of those fancy things, you'd better make darned sure the bins are getting emptied first, week in, week out Nokia!

*lol*
😊

Salve io spero Soltanto Che aggiungano alla fotocamera La possibilit� di Selezionare la misurazione della luce media / centrale / spot come nei migliori samsung .....

@shadamehr,

quote:

Ney, it's the slowest, buggiest Firmware I have yet seen, and I have plenty of other Nokias here to directly test it against if you wish, from two 6120c's to two E51's, two N82's, an E90, and an E71, just for starters what I own myself. I can readily lay my hands on a 5800, and a 6220c if you want to include these too, but as the person who set them both up for family members, I can attest to the correct decent speed and response time for the Messaging Application on all of those devices, compared to the N86.

end quote:

What does this tell you? It says to me that virtually every single Nokia phone is bug laden from the start and needs multiple firmware upgrades to fix even to most basic problems. I have dropped Nokia as my primary phone for personal use and now have switched to an iPhone. Why? Simply because it works. While every phone needs a bit of tweaking here and there, Nokia's consistently require complete firmware upgrades to do what is expected out of the box. Hate them or not, Apple designed a phone that is far easier to use, intuitive, and not as buggy. Sure they make only one phone but Nokia is shooting themselves in the foot with a blazillion phones when almost none of them work properly. I will always have a Nokia somewhere around but never again will I purchase a Nokia flagship phone. They are simply not up to the task. With the advent of the N900, and Nokia's track record for not delivering the goods as promised, it can be assumed that this too will be bug riddled.

@ Unregistered (yup, another one - the one replying to me just above).

What does this tell you? It says to me that virtually every single Nokia phone is bug laden from the start and needs multiple firmware upgrades to fix even to most basic problems. I have dropped Nokia as my primary phone for personal use and now have switched to an iPhone. Why? Simply because it works. While every phone needs a bit of tweaking here and there, Nokia's consistently require complete firmware upgrades to do what is expected out of the box. Hate them or not, Apple designed a phone that is far easier to use, intuitive, and not as buggy.

I couldn't be more in disagreement with you, but rest assured, in good grace.

Because it tells me nothing of the sort.

I have zero idea why you say all this means is that EVERY Nokia must be bug-ridden from the start, in the early firmwares.

My E71 had some minor issues, but was nothing like the N86, when on it's lower end Firmware.

My E90 - each firmware that got introduced, brought out only little differences, such as newer Flash support etc, and anything else were minor 'behind the scenes' tidy ups that I never even noticed.

My E51 was identical - early firmware was pretty much reliable enough, fully usable, etc etc.

And my N82 was no different.

Oh, and my 6120c - whilst later firmwares added some more modern aspects that other handsets had by then got, even early versions of it were reliable enough.

So I am at an utter loss to explain how such data then equates to your view that it "says to (you) that virtually every single Nokia phone is bug laden from the start and needs multiple firmware upgrades to fix even to most basic problems".

One E90 didn't, two N82's didn't, two E51's didn't, and two 6120c's didn't.

So how does that bear even the tiniest resemblance to that?

Forgive me, I mean it in good grace.

But it is the entire, utter point of my post in relation to the N86 - to SINGLE it out, certainly NOT to share the issue.

My whole entire point is that the N86 STANDS OUT as a specific bad early firmware, when contrasted with other Nokias with early firmware, and is thus the entire opposite, of what you say. *lol*

As for your suggestion to use an IPhone simply because it works (hmmm), and because it does not require Firmware updates like Nokia does etc...

Do you realise you are giving us Nokia users manna from heaven with such statements...?

In order to bring about even the most basic items of user-functionality, iPhone users the world over were over the moon when the new iPhone update finally came out, introducing for the FIRST TIME, some of the most basic features that all other phones have always possessed.

What else would you call this then, if not a "Firmware Update"?

I think you mean that the difference between Nokia and Apple, is that Nokia release these far more frequently, in order to much faster resolve the issues.

But however you cut it, that's a Firmware update to me I'm afraid.

And as for "just works"...

Hmm, now why would I go for an 8MP Camera-centric phone like the Nokia N86, if not to take photos that I blog, mms, and bluetooth instantly, to friends.

The iPhone (setting aside the poor camera), can't even do half of that, and certainly can't permit me to Bluetooth an image to/from it.

One of the GP's where I work, was devastated just recently, when I had showed him a photo, and he asked me to send it to him (for the rest of the real world, "send that to me" actually means, "bluetooth me that matey please"), and when I went to do so, and he whipped out his phone, I noticed he had an iPhone instead of the Nokia E71 he had the week before.

I asked him about this, and he said he had been offered a reasonable deal to get it. So when I pointed out to him that I can't therefore now send him the image by BT, like I had the week before, he looked at me as if I was retarded or something, and laughed at me.

When I insisted I really couldn't as the iPhone doesn't support Bluetooth, he then again shook his head at me, looked at ME as if it was I that was a moron, and said "of course you can - the guy in the shop assured me it had Bluetooth, and I use it for my headset".

Doh... When I eventually explained things like actual different Bluetooth Protocols to him, and that the iPhone only really has Headset/Handsfree (and possibly Card File Exchange, and now possibly Modem Tethering, or is even this 18th century, via cable only?), then he was quite simply, devastated. He said something like "you mean I am stuck with this useless piece of **** (metal, he's a GP so doesn't swear) for 18 months now, and I can't even send or receive images by BT..?"

No mate, that's right - your "state of the art" wonder-phone can't even swap images by Bluetooth. Nor ringtones for that matter. But before you claim that's schoolkid stuff (I'm 36 and a professional, yet rely on it), I then pointed out to the Doctor, that he couldn't use it to swap .pdf files etc now which is something he has a lot of use and need for.

He then asked me "How the hell am I meant to send stuff now then".

And in typical Apple Fanboy fashion, as they have replied to me so often, I pretended to be a Jesus Bone (oops Phone) fanboy, and in a suitably artificial condescending tone, told him:

"Ah, but you can attach a file, and then use EMAIL on the phone, to send it via EMAIL to another person - and the fact that it only uses 3G and not 3.5G as per Nokia phones, won't really add too long to the time it takes. Of course, the other person will then also have to have Email on his phone, if it is just to be sent to someone out and about etc, otherwise it will have to be downloaded later on their pc".

He looked at me then, as if I had recently underwent Brain Reduction Surgery.

So please, keep your iPhone dinosaurs (from a FEATURE-set perspective, not an interface one) back in the Dark-ages, where they well and truly belong, as the Pagan Toys they really are.

My phone needs to be able to take a good photo, easily send, share, and pass on all media on my phone quickly and simply, I need a battery that if need be can be swapped out, when travelling, or in the Scottish Highlands for extended periods (not one that gets worse and worse as the phone ages, and will need a full factory return, and costly and time-consuming swap out once it dies completely). And a phone that let's me LEAVE Google Maps running in the BACKGROUND, so I can keep an eye on my children via Google Latitude when needed. As well as doubles up as a ready replacement Sat-Nav, that can handle calls etc and texts in the BACKGROUND too, for those times I forget my top-of-line TomTom. Oh and can be used for my Geo-caching again, IN THE BACKGROUND.

And I would say keep your glorified MP3 (AAC) player for exactly that, playing music (the one thing it IS allegedly good at, the iPhone, with it's wonderful UI, and cover flow etc), were it not for the fact that with my (even more basic, supposedly), Nokia N86, I can play the entire contents of my Music Library through my car stereo, ZERO cables or configuration required, or through the little hand-held stereo radio at work, on an evening, or even to any of my home hi-fis too, thanks to it's FM output.

And let's not forget, things like Picture Messaging, Modem Tethering, and even Stereo BT Headset playback of music...

All of these things required the LONG OVERDUE "Firmware Update" you play down so much, for the iPhone, just to even deliver these most basic of expected features.

So you say it works...?

Of course it does - in exactly the same way my old Nokia 6210 mono-screen phone was the most reliable phone in Phonedom itself - because being so basic, how else could it possibly fail...

In just the same way I HOPE my N86 will eventually work, once Nokia update the Firmware to fix lots of issues, of course.

*lol* - and please, I offer all this light-heartedly, in good grace, and good humour, rest assured.

Unregistered wrote:What does this tell you? It says to me that virtually every single Nokia phone is bug laden from the start and needs multiple firmware upgrades to fix even to most basic problems. I have dropped Nokia as my primary phone for personal use and now have switched to an iPhone. Why? Simply because it works. While every phone needs a bit of tweaking here and there, Nokia's consistently require complete firmware upgrades to do what is expected out of the box. Hate them or not, Apple designed a phone that is far easier to use, intuitive, and not as buggy. Sure they make only one phone but Nokia is shooting themselves in the foot with a blazillion phones when almost none of them work properly. I will always have a Nokia somewhere around but never again will I purchase a Nokia flagship phone. They are simply not up to the task. With the advent of the N900, and Nokia's track record for not delivering the goods as promised, it can be assumed that this too will be bug riddled.

This is simply untrue.

All software - and I do stress ALL software has bugs. I've been working on software development and testing for about 25 years. And in that time every system has had bugs of one sort or other.

As software gets increasingly complex, these bugs get harder and harder to find. This is then compounded by the pressures to get products to market sooner.

Whilst I do agree that Nokia seem to have more issues with this than others, its definitely not exclusively a Nokia problem.

So you're saying that the iPhone has no need for firmware updates or bug fixes? thats complete and utter rubbish - they've had their fair share of bugs at one level or other, although I believe a lot of these have been of a different type - security vulnerabilities, which doesn't appear to be an issue on Symbian.

You talk about the N900 like its an un-proven product, which it isn't. The N900 is based fully on Linux, and has had years of development work on the previous models (770, N800 and N810) to get it to where it is now. Its also got the support of the open source community, which has been a huge part of the success of Linux in enterprise markets which value reliability.

I have no issues with people making reasoned arguments, but yours is patently not a reasoned argument.

Hello shadamehr and others.

We do read this and other forums, so please keep the comments coming, thanks.

Damian

@shadamehr,

My God, you sure do love to hear your self speak and bloviate.

I feel asleep after the first three words. Was all of that really necessary?

If the iphone is so bug free, why are people having so many problems with 3.0 and 3.1?
I rest my case.