DamianDinning wrote:You may want to check these out:They are taken with a development version of the upcoming SW:
Nice shots. Clear and vibrant. I see a bit purple-ish tint but for the most part, I am excited about the upgrade. YES !!!!!!!!!
Thanks for dropping by with the info.
@shadamehr,
The iPhone geotags without any extra software required. Very transparent. Videos are geotagged as well.
I understand you about the battery too. 😊 It can be a problem to some. Considering I change phones about every 3 to 6 months, battery issues are not a problem for me, and because I negotiated out contract with our ISP for the American Embassy here in Helsinki, we get unlocked iPhones. 😊 Nice huh?
All those images look really awesome.
But i have a few questions.
The camera key seems so 'hard'. I find all my images blurring after i take because of the extra pressure needed to press the key down.
What do you guys do about this?
Also, does anyone have any problems with the build quality of the phone as a whole?
I mean, my phone's great and all, but it still has that really irritating wobbly slider.
I sent my back, they gave it back to me a little LESS wobbly.
But a wobble is a wobble. And that sucks.
Yea.
Unregistered wrote:All those images look really awesome.But i have a few questions.
The camera key seems so 'hard'. I find all my images blurring after i take because of the extra pressure needed to press the key down.
What do you guys do about this?
Also, does anyone have any problems with the build quality of the phone as a whole?
I mean, my phone's great and all, but it still has that really irritating wobbly slider.I sent my back, they gave it back to me a little LESS wobbly.
But a wobble is a wobble. And that sucks.Yea.
The slide is made entirely from metal components. there has to be clearance between these and this si the movement you can feel. if there was no gap you would not be able to open the phone.
Re the capture key. I find it easiesr to ensure your finger is centralised over the key and that you push directly down and not from an angle. Sorry if that sounds a little obvious but its worth experimenting with. Sqeezing the key rather than jabbing or short sharp presses helps too.
I'm thinking about buying a N86 and have a question for those who have one, can you install and use Mobile Dictionary without issues? I never used the program myself, but it's something I would like to be able to use in my next phone.
Also, if it doesn't work, what do you think the chances are of a future firmware fixing it?
DamianDinning wrote:You may want to check these out:They are taken with a development version of the upcoming SW:
Thank You Damian. Those photos are truly stunning.
Not sure if they are yours, as the photographer, or just taken by your team, but if they are yours, we can see why you are the Development Lead on Nokia's Camera-centric/Imaging Devices.
Excellent stuff.
Only beggars two obvious questions really...
WHEN can we get it (well I had to be predictable, like everyone else *lol*)...
...and on a more serious note, is this FW v20 or whatever it gets called, likely to only be an IMAGING update for us, so to speak, or will it incorporate any of the current Bug Issue Fixes we have mentioned, or will that be for the next one thereafter?
Thanks for sharing them with us too - truly so!
Those with issues with the Stiffness of the Camera button...
I'm not being patronising, or bandying to Nokia here folks, but I really can say I get more and more used to it all the time, and the more I get used to it, the more I genuinely DO come to prefer an overly stiff one (button that is - bad choice of wording there), as opposed to one too soft (even worse choice of wording).
But I mean that in serious terms.
Question - has anyone ever tried Build V2 Nokia E90's and it's IMPOSSIBLE camera button - the one where they fixed the height of the keyboard...?
I even had the Team Leader from Nokia's UK Support and Service Centre open up four of them randomly from the box, over the phone, and challenge him to actually manage a repeated series of "press half way to lock focus, then press the rest of the way to shoot", and could he hell, on any of them.
Have you ever tried it...
You take your time even, hold it down half way, carefully - not pressing any harder, but at the same time feeling SURE you are not releasing pressure so much that it loses Focus Lock again (with the button both being so soft, and in effect, on an angled/hinged design, so only one side of it actually has any travel - the other side being fixed solid).
And nevertheless, with a green focus lock box shown, you then carefully press the rest of the way down...
...And all you get is it go back to a normal white focusing box, waiting for you to focus yet again, no photo even taken.
It's an absolute nightmare, as the Team Leader at Nokia's (third party provided) UK Support Centre had to attest, when he could not manage it no matter how many times I gave him the chance.
BUT, I digress...
Just to say folks, stick with the stiffer N86 one - once you get used to it, you WILL come to prefer an overly stiff/firm button, to an overly weak/soft one.
I'm actually liking the pressure needed to activate my N86 Camera Button now, now that I am used to it.
DamianDinning wrote:The slide is made entirely from metal components. there has to be clearance between these and this si the movement you can feel. if there was no gap you would not be able to open the phone.Re the capture key. I find it easiesr to ensure your finger is centralised over the key and that you push directly down and not from an angle. Sorry if that sounds a little obvious but its worth experimenting with. Sqeezing the key rather than jabbing or short sharp presses helps too.
Ah.
SO if i get it right, the build of N86 with it's metal components causes it to have gaps which causes it to be a little wobbly?
What about the N85? My N85's slider was more or less perfect(no wobbles). Could this be due to the only plastic build?
Thanks alot though. =)
shadamehr wrote:
Only beggars two obvious questions really...WHEN can we get it (well I had to be predictable, like everyone else *lol*)...
...and on a more serious note, is this FW v20 or whatever it gets called, likely to only be an IMAGING update for us, so to speak, or will it incorporate any of the current Bug Issue Fixes we have mentioned, or will that be for the next one thereafter?
Thanks for sharing them with us too - truly so!
Hopefully 1st half of October for the release but depends on how testing goes 😊
You'll be glad to hear that it is probably more maintenance than new features. Some may argue the other way round, depends on your perspective. I'm hoping we've caught most, if not all of the issues that you'd like fixed. These products are unbelievably complex, made even more so by the amount of different variants etc we have to create for a global product, we're working very hard, promise!
Unregistered wrote:Ah.SO if i get it right, the build of N86 with it's metal components causes it to have gaps which causes it to be a little wobbly?
What about the N85? My N85's slider was more or less perfect(no wobbles). Could this be due to the only plastic build?
Thanks alot though. =)
Please excuse me, I'm not that familiar with the exact differences between the two slide mechanisms. I am able to comment 100% on the N86 slide as I have one on my desk and you can see quite clearly that it is entirely metal. But you can also understand why it would be virtually impossible in mass production not to have some tolerance where there has to be some degree of movement. Of course as in any mass produced components tolerances vary but I feel quite confident that whilst some may appear to have some degree of additional movement compared to others given the metal contruction I am also confident that our mechanical engineers have done a great job and that you'll see no long term effects here.
We made quality of mechanics a very high priority with this product. Of course we should do with all products but some receive more attention than others and this is one which certainly received focus in this area.
shadamehr wrote:Thank You Damian. Those photos are truly stunning.Not sure if they are yours, as the photographer, or just taken by your team, but if they are yours, we can see why you are the Development Lead on Nokia's Camera-centric/Imaging Devices.
Thanks! Guilty as charged 😊
DamianDinning wrote:Please excuse me, I'm not that familiar with the exact differences between the two slide mechanisms. I am able to comment 100% on the N86 slide as I have one on my desk and you can see quite clearly that it is entirely metal. But you can also understand why it would be virtually impossible in mass production not to have some tolerance where there has to be some degree of movement. Of course as in any mass produced components tolerances vary but I feel quite confident that whilst some may appear to have some degree of additional movement compared to others given the metal contruction I am also confident that our mechanical engineers have done a great job and that you'll see no long term effects here.We made quality of mechanics a very high priority with this product. Of course we should do with all products but some receive more attention than others and this is one which certainly received focus in this area.
Ahh. Well, I just thought it would be more 'firm' as is the case with my solid slider on the N85.
Guess i CAN live with that little gab and wobble.
Cheers, and thanks for the response.
DamianDinning wrote:Thanks! Guilty as charged 😊
My pleasure, and grateful we are to you too, in hearing that even some of the things we are currently seeing as issues with the N86 software, are included potentially in the upcoming release, as to be honest Damian, I kind of thought that this Firmware (the upcoming one), was basically already pretty much as "feature complete" as that version was going to be, and was based on 'code' from a point before all of these discussions came to light, and thus just being fine tweaked, and that we would therefore need to wait until the one AFTER that, to see ANY of the major bug fixes we are discussing on here.
So rest assured, we won't "hold you to anything", but if the next firmware does actually include some of them, along with this improved camera stuff, then you've likely made many of us on here very happy peeps.
*lol*
Thanks again, and no, they are good photos - it gives people ideas for what people can be trying to achieve themselves, with such a camera-centric phone as this.
DamianDinning
http://share.ovi.com/album/Dinning.NokiaN868MP
your photo looks great & clear! From your photo I notice that some got a bit reddish colour? Is that this is the real colour from scene?
I do want to see more photo on indoor shot include flash on photo.
I had been using n86 for morethan 2 month already & more than hundred photo I taken using it.
Overall n86 photo shoting here is my opinion:
- Outdoor shot was great😊 just sometimes not enough exposure.
- Indoor white balance was blueish???
- Flash on photo white balance also not correct especially at distance mroe than 1m.. greenish??? Shutter speed not fast enough for me to capture a clear picture.
- Feel hard to focus using macro mode always fail to focus but using auto mode dont have problem for same shot.
- Video recording zooming was great in n86.
Hope u can take it as reference. 😊
n86 is great than my old n82. Even my n86 just get repaired for keypad faulty last week but I stil like to use it.. it feel solid & taking great photo 😃
DamianDinning wrote:Thanks! Guilty as charged 😊
@ Damian Dinning...
Damian, if you happen to spot this mate, please let me know, but just to say I've confirmed ANOTHER bug, which I would guess Nokia's team would rate as HIGH or SEVERE or whatever...
This morning, I have just once again added another number to my Phonebook, not typing it in, but direct from the Inbox of my Messaging Application, where I just used �Add to Contacts� > �Create New�
And nevertheless, from thence on, any messages from that number, still only appear as a NUMBER in my Messaging application. This is the THIRD such number I have added to my phone recently to exhibit this problem.
And for clarification it is NOT a Duplicate Contacts issue that would therefore prevent it choosing which name to display. It is a specific bug in the Messaging Application Pattern Matching I would guess (I should get them to try calling me, to see what the Phonebook itself does with them), because the corresponding NAME is displayed fine, if you instead connect the phone to PC Suite and read the Inbox there, or even use �Conversations�, the threaded message view Beta Labs add-on, to view your messages.
Doing either of those, the recipient�s name is shown properly, which rules out any duplicate entry possibility. But in the Inbox of the phone, it does it CONTINUE to show only a NUMBER for messages from these people.
(And I am aware that adding a number to the Contacts does not effect messages already received � but this is doing this for ONGOING messages on my phone, even after a switch off.)
So this is another BIG functionality bug � certain random messages, for reasons I still have no clue to, as I have tried deleting and re-creating numerous times etc, will only appear in your Inbox, with a NUMBER shown, instead of the actual stored contact�s NAME.
Please let me know you've noticed this one too Damian, thanks.
Damian,
In addition to the above, I can confirm yet another new bug...
Legitimate contacts not being located/listed, when doing a search in Contacts, when sending a message to multiple recipients.
Best that I explain...
If I compose an SMS message, then press to select the recipients, if I spell out J O H, it will (or at least should) list all the entries containing these characters. I can then tick my friend "John Maclean" as one of the recipients.
HOWEVER, when I then use the C button to clear the characters J O H, once I have now tagged/marked/ticked John for inclusion, when I then spell out the characters for the next recipient, the searching goes awry...
As when I today typed out S T E for my brother Stephen, his entry was NOT shown in the list of matches, and instead only my friend Stephanie was.
This is the second time this kind of thing has happened, as the other day when sending to both my "Dad" and my "Mum", when spelling out M U M for my mum after having already ticked for my Dad, it again did not list her, and I panicked thinking she had somehow been wiped from my phone.
I can CONFIRM it is a BUG though, as if I do not send to multiple recipients, if I then instead only do a search on S T E, then Stephen, my brother IS listed, and if I search on M U M, my mum is listed.
For advance useful info, if I instead enter some of the search terms from the SURNAME instead, when this problem arises, so in the case of my brother Stephen, when S T E does not locate him, if I instead enter R I C, which is the start of our surname, then what do you know, "Stephen Rice" is shown in the list (which makes you question why S T E does not locate him).
But it can't be an issue with an invisible character not getting deleted at the start of the search box, as "Stephanie" does still get listed when typing S T E.
So this is just a weird, and indeed highly problematic, bug.
Again though, it is a bug, in that whatever you search for and type, and is missing when sending to multiple entries in SMS, if you instead send to that person SINGULAR, the characters then DO find the person.
Weird. And hugely frustrating.
Hope this helps too Damian.
genus86 wrote:DamianDinninghttp://share.ovi.com/album/Dinning.NokiaN868MP
your photo looks great & clear! From your photo I notice that some got a bit reddish colour? Is that this is the real colour from scene?I do want to see more photo on indoor shot include flash on photo.
I had been using n86 for morethan 2 month already & more than hundred photo I taken using it.
Overall n86 photo shoting here is my opinion:
- Outdoor shot was great😊 just sometimes not enough exposure.
- Indoor white balance was blueish???
- Flash on photo white balance also not correct especially at distance mroe than 1m.. greenish??? Shutter speed not fast enough for me to capture a clear picture.
- Feel hard to focus using macro mode always fail to focus but using auto mode dont have problem for same shot.
- Video recording zooming was great in n86.Hope u can take it as reference. 😊
n86 is great than my old n82. Even my n86 just get repaired for keypad faulty last week but I stil like to use it.. it feel solid & taking great photo 😃
Sorry to hear about the keymat.
I think you'll find we;ve made improvements in most of these areas, especially close-up which you'll find generally you can shoot around 50% closer than before and more consistently too.
DamianDinning wrote:Sorry to hear about the keymat.I think you'll find we;ve made improvements in most of these areas, especially close-up which you'll find generally you can shoot around 50% closer than before and more consistently too.
Don't suppose you spotted the two new big bug issues I mentioned up above, and on the previous page, immediately before it Damian, and could convey those additional bugs to the relevant team too mate...?
Thanks.
WTF? The old pic looks better than the new one. Even more aggressive noice reduction??? Look at the details on the wood. The new one have less details.
And then point out that the pics takes less space and easier to send, why dont put a 2mp cam in the phone instead? For mms we can easily resize our pics.
No im getting really mad if they put even harder compression in the n86, it�s awful as it is with trees and grass and things like that looking really bad.
Why not atleast put a choise for photo quality in the cam settings and let us who prior good quality have the option to set it to "Superfine" or something like that. And those who wants small pics can shoot in another mode.
unreg Mike wrote:WTF? The old pic looks better than the new one. Even more aggressive noice reduction??? Look at the details on the wood. The new one have less details.And then point out that the pics takes less space and easier to send, why dont put a 2mp cam in the phone instead? For mms we can easily resize our pics.
No im getting really mad if they put even harder compression in the n86, it�s awful as it is with trees and grass and things like that looking really bad.
Why not atleast put a choise for photo quality in the cam settings and let us who prior good quality have the option to set it to "Superfine" or something like that. And those who wants small pics can shoot in another mode.
It is unacceptable that a 8mp photo just have size few hundreds kbits. Even my 8MP DC already can get more than 1MB picture size. Picture size large is okay for n86 because it already have 8gb internal memory. But is that smaller picture size will give more faster imaging processing???:con?
Now n86 8mp still cannot giving enough resolution as real 8mp picture.. in my opinion. It is good to have a test on different picture compression.
genus86 wrote:It is unacceptable that a 8mp photo just have size few hundreds kbits. Even my 8MP DC already can get more than 1MB picture size. Picture size large is okay for n86 because it already have 8gb internal memory. But is that smaller picture size will give more faster imaging processing???:con?Now n86 8mp still cannot giving enough resolution as real 8mp picture.. in my opinion. It is good to have a test on different picture compression.
Hi, file size is not a measure of image quality. Many people look at file size and believe because the file is larger the IQ should be better. In theory yes, but not in practice.
For example an image with more noise but less detail will provide a larger file size. This is because the compression is less efficient/effective. We have recently conducted a study comparing our current jpeg compression (which is using pretty high quality setting). If you compare at large magnification you should not see any 'compression' based artefacts. In our conclusion, N86 using an even higher quality setting for compression only provides larger files and no noticeable improvement in IQ.
You may prefer to look at this comparison which I think much more clearly shows the difference between the under development sw and the original.
These images were taken at dusk. It's a screen shot and it was compressed so it is NOT final image quality but close enough to give you a good visual appreciation of the improvements coming.
br
http://share.ovi.com/media/Dinning.NokiaN868MP/Dinning.10656
shadamehr wrote:Don't suppose you spotted the two new big bug issues I mentioned up above, and on the previous page, immediately before it Damian, and could convey those additional bugs to the relevant team too mate...?Thanks.
Yes I have seen them.
DamianDinning wrote:(snipped)
You may prefer to look at this comparison which I think much more clearly shows the difference between the under development sw and the original.These images were taken at dusk. It's a screen shot and it was compressed so it is NOT final image quality but close enough to give you a good visual appreciation of the improvements coming.
br
http://share.ovi.com/media/Dinning.NokiaN868MP/Dinning.10656
Damian,
We are to assume that the NEW Firmware in the works is the image on the RIGHT hand side of that screen-shot, and the Current Firmware is the image on the LEFT hand side, yes...?
As it says on the Bottom, Old v New, in that order yes?
If so, that's an amazing improvement - for sure!
And thanks for noting the other bug issues too Sir.
----
Finally, for others struggling with what Damian is implying, let me have a stab too.
I too think that the larger the MP Count/Image Resolution of a sensor/phone, clearly, the larger the actual file size of the recorded image should be, and I always use a comparator of my many stand-alone digital cameras, to see where it corresponds or should fit in - but that is as an overall guide, and NOT a comparison, as is the case here, between one firmware version and another, and the resultant difference on average image file size.
As in this specific case, what I take Damian to mean, is that if we see a REDUCTION in the average file size of N86 8MP photos from the phone AFTER the Firmware Update, there is a good and valid reason for this...
"Better image recording in the first place", which equates to less 'noise' in the image, which then directly equates to a smaller recorded file-size.
And to give a simple demonstration of why that would be the case...
A photograph of building - picture for example an old English Tudor-beamed historic country pub, you can maybe picture the type - white painted, with black oak beams prominent.
If the recorded image is not crisp, clean, and well recorded by the camera, the off-white walls of a building such as this, instead of being a nice clear white or beige smooth gradiented appearance, as they should be, might instead be recorded with lots of noise... That is to say, the walls that were meant to be smooth white, instead becoming very noisy, and made up of lots of little dots, and artefacts.
In such an image, if we call that the ORIGINAL, all these dots and artefacts take up data and add to the file size of the recorded photograph.
However, if you improve your image recording algorithms etc, and as a result, the photograph that gets taken then is of a smooth, clean, gradiented nice white wall, as should have been the case, this will actually take up LESS data and thus LESS FILE SIZE, as it will not have all the unnecessary dots, noise, and artefacts included.
And this, as a quick and dirty example, can help to explain why a smaller actual overall file-size, does NOT automatically mean a POORER picture - far from it.
If it is because it is now managing to record truer photo, with less noise, dotting, and artefacting in it, then this would certainly equate to a SMALLER image-size, for what is yet an overall BETTER looking image and a truer recording of the real thing.
The trick with this though, is to make sure this is not done in such a way, that the whole image looks too soft, or undefined.
But provided you get the balance right (and I implore Damian to do so, and I am SURE this is one of his absolute aims), then you do indeed end up with a BETTER image, truer to the real thing, that ultimately takes up LESS file-size, due to not having to record lots of noise data, dots, and artefacts, that should not even be there in the first place.
So Damian is entirely correct in what he says, rest assured - provided it is implemented correctly.
From looking at the two comparison images he refers to though, I know straight away which of the two images looks better and more realistic, and it's for sure, the NEW Firmware.
shadamehr wrote:Damian,We are to assume that the NEW Firmware in the works is the image on the RIGHT hand side of that screen-shot, and the Current Firmware is the image on the LEFT hand side, yes...?
As it says on the Bottom, Old v New, in that order yes?
If so, that's an amazing improvement - for sure!
Yes the new is on the right, but had hoped it was so obvious compared to the one Steve had in the original story that I didn't need to point it out 😉
DamianDinning wrote:Yes the new is on the right, but had hoped it was so obvious compared to the one Steve had in the original story that I didn't need to point it out 😉
The DIFFERENCE is more obvious than needs any consideration.
The only bit I was making sure, was I had it the right WAY round Damian *lol*
Postman Pat, even without his current Specsavers Rims, can happily see the DIFFERENCE, rest assured.
I was just making sure the difference was the way round we were hoping it is.
So that's a relief, and a boon too.
Grins.
DamianDinning wrote:Hi, file size is not a measure of image quality. Many people look at file size and believe because the file is larger the IQ should be better. In theory yes, but not in practice.For example an image with more noise but less detail will provide a larger file size. This is because the compression is less efficient/effective. We have recently conducted a study comparing our current jpeg compression (which is using pretty high quality setting). If you compare at large magnification you should not see any 'compression' based artefacts. In our conclusion, N86 using an even higher quality setting for compression only provides larger files and no noticeable improvement in IQ.
You may prefer to look at this comparison which I think much more clearly shows the difference between the under development sw and the original.
These images were taken at dusk. It's a screen shot and it was compressed so it is NOT final image quality but close enough to give you a good visual appreciation of the improvements coming.
br
http://share.ovi.com/media/Dinning.NokiaN868MP/Dinning.10656
From the picture you provided. The right handside is much better than left handside. Which showing much more detail and better colour. 😊
genus86 wrote:From the picture you provided. The right handside is much better than left handside. Which showing much more detail and better colour. 😊
Post #84 just above, genus mate...
Damian confirms the RIGHT hand side image, that with much more detail and quality, is the NEW firmware in development, whereas that on the LEFT, the washed out looking noisy photo, is the current firmware.
Cool!
DamianDinning wrote:Sorry to hear about the keymat.I think you'll find we;ve made improvements in most of these areas, especially close-up which you'll find generally you can shoot around 50% closer than before and more consistently too.
Hi Damian.
Speaking of improvements, bugs and fixes and the such like, when the new FW is released, will a changelog be available so we know exactly what has been fixed/improved/added etc?
Of course it's still a work in progress but from what you know already how expansive is the changelog/update. If it's v20 i imagine it will be rather large?
Look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Hi everyone.
v20 FW will start to become available during next week (w/c October 5th) for main variants initially. If your variant is not available next week please bear with us as we try and get these out as quickly as possible.
Main improvements are to camera, namely:
Improved still image quality principally but also some improvements in video too.
Still image quality improvements are mainly colour reproduction and handling of fine details. You should notice a significant difference in image detail vs the original release.
Face detection added
Red-eye removal added. Note this is image processing which removes the red-eye. You need to be in red-eye reduction flash mode for it to be operational. In other flash modes it is disabled as there is a small shot to shot impact due to the extra image processing.
New focus point indication - shows where in the scene the camera is focusing
Improved Close-up focus detection. As a result you will find in most situations you can focus much closer than before. The new focus point indication will also help in confirming which part of your subject is used for critical focus checking
Fine tuning of AMBR (Automatic Motion Blur Reduction)
Multiple maintenance updates to the following:
Browser
Music store
RealPlayer
Automatic VoIP re-registration
Maps update
Here and Now update
N-Gage
Nokia Messaging
Any questions, I'll try and answer as many as I can.
br
Hi everyone.
v20 FW will start to become available during next week (w/c October 5th) for main variants initially. If your variant is not available next week please bear with us as we try and get these out as quickly as possible.
Main improvements are to camera, namely:
Improved still image quality principally but also some improvements in video too.
Face detection added
Red-eye removal added. Note this is image processing which removes the red-eye. You need to be in red-eye reduction flash mode for it to be operational. Other flash modes it is disabled as there is a small shot to shot impact due to the extra image processing.
New focus point indication - shows where in the scene the camera is focusing
Improved Close-up focus. As a result you will find in most situations you can focus much closer than before. The new focus point indication will also help in confirming which part of your subject is used for critical focus checking
Multiple maintenance updates to the following:
Browser
Music store
RealPlayer
Automatic VoIP re-registration
Maps update
Here and Now update
N-Gage
Nokia Messaging
Any questions, I'll try and answer as many as I can.
br