Nokia N86 next firmware to include Face Detection

clonmult wrote:This is simply untrue.

All software - and I do stress ALL software has bugs. I've been working on software development and testing for about 25 years. And in that time every system has had bugs of one sort or other.

As software gets increasingly complex, these bugs get harder and harder to find. This is then compounded by the pressures to get products to market sooner.

Whilst I do agree that Nokia seem to have more issues with this than others, its definitely not exclusively a Nokia problem.

So you're saying that the iPhone has no need for firmware updates or bug fixes? thats complete and utter rubbish - they've had their fair share of bugs at one level or other, although I believe a lot of these have been of a different type - security vulnerabilities, which doesn't appear to be an issue on Symbian.

You talk about the N900 like its an un-proven product, which it isn't. The N900 is based fully on Linux, and has had years of development work on the previous models (770, N800 and N810) to get it to where it is now. Its also got the support of the open source community, which has been a huge part of the success of Linux in enterprise markets which value reliability.

I have no issues with people making reasoned arguments, but yours is patently not a reasoned argument.

I think you did not read the entire text of the poster.

He did not say the iPhone does not need software upgrades. He said they need less. He also said that almost every Nokia needs some sort of bug/software upgrade out of the box. This is true. Name one recent (go back 5 years if you want) phones that were not hosed from the start? Not to mention design errors. Can anyone remember the E90 keyboard issues? How about the recent N97 scratching the lens issues? These type of things have not plagued the iPhone. Again, no one said, not the poster, that problems were exclusive only to Nokia. You seemed to have intentionally misstated that point. Everyone is under pressure to get to the market sooner so this is not an excuse for Nokia's shoddy work. Pressure is equal to all and some seem to handle it better than others, and deliver a quality product from the start. Your argument about Linux can be applied to Symbian as it has been around quite a while as well, so going by past, and present experience, it might be safe to say that the N900 will flawed in some way as well. Nokia has a proven track record of dropping the ball. So now open source will suddenly come to save the day because Nokia couldn't get it right with Symbian? That is a pretty weak argument. More like blame dispersal.

Here are the facts as I see them. There is no perfect phone. No one size fits all. The iPhone fits some, while Symbian fits others. I happen to have both for the reasons I just stated and the fact that I can afford to buy any phone I want, and I like gadgets so I am hooked. The second point is that the comparison between the iPhone and any other phone, even the N97 or N900 is moot as they are different types of devices. The iPhone is designed and targeted at a VERY specific market while the N97 and N900 seem to be sort of thrown at the wall and seeing what sticks, which is not necessarily bad. Nokia has a proven track record of providing subpar products almost consistently. The first thing I and a few others did after we got our Nokia's was to go to the NSU. Why? Because we knew something would be wrong with it and we were hoping an upgrade would be coming. So yes, Nokia has a proven history of delivering sub par devices that need immediate attention from go.

I hope my arguments were better, but you completely misrepresented a few things.

Unregistered wrote:I think you did not read the entire text of the poster.

He did not say the iPhone does not need software upgrades. He said they need less. He also said that almost every Nokia needs some sort of bug/software upgrade out of the box. This is true. Name one recent (go back 5 years if you want) phones that were not hosed from the start? Not to mention design errors. Can anyone remember the E90 keyboard issues? How about the recent N97 scratching the lens issues? These type of things have not plagued the iPhone. Again, no one said, not the poster, that problems were exclusive only to Nokia. You seemed to have intentionally misstated that point. Everyone is under pressure to get to the market sooner so this is not an excuse for Nokia's shoddy work. Pressure is equal to all and some seem to handle it better than others, and deliver a quality product from the start. Your argument about Linux can be applied to Symbian as it has been around quite a while as well, so going by past, and present experience, it might be safe to say that the N900 will flawed in some way as well. Nokia has a proven track record of dropping the ball. So now open source will suddenly come to save the day because Nokia couldn't get it right with Symbian? That is a pretty weak argument. More like blame dispersal.

Here are the facts as I see them. There is no perfect phone. No one size fits all. The iPhone fits some, while Symbian fits others. I happen to have both for the reasons I just stated and the fact that I can afford to buy any phone I want, and I like gadgets so I am hooked. The second point is that the comparison between the iPhone and any other phone, even the N97 or N900 is moot as they are different types of devices. The iPhone is designed and targeted at a VERY specific market while the N97 and N900 seem to be sort of thrown at the wall and seeing what sticks, which is not necessarily bad. Nokia has a proven track record of providing subpar products almost consistently. The first thing I and a few others did after we got our Nokia's was to go to the NSU. Why? Because we knew something would be wrong with it and we were hoping an upgrade would be coming. So yes, Nokia has a proven history of delivering sub par devices that need immediate attention from go.

I hope my arguments were better, but you completely misrepresented a few things.

You mean the iphone cases changing color and iphones getting slow because of overheating isn't a problem? What about iphones having problems with applications with os 3.0, and even rebooting randomly with 3.1?

Once upon a time, this site had a policy of not publishing rumours or leaked info. I think it would be wise to reinstate that policy.
How did you get this "scoop"? Either you got someone at Nokia fired (again), or, most likely, this is a "controlled leak" by which Nokia gets to delay a lot of potential Satio sales without having to officially promise anything.
If/when Nokia actually releases this fw, you can run your own tests and publish the results. But in the meanwhile, please don't waste my time with this.

Unregistered wrote:I think you did not read the entire text of the poster.

He did not say the iPhone does not need software upgrades. He said they need less.

No, what he (and you now, plain as day even) did, was imply that LOTS of Firmware Updates, equate to an automatic bad thing. This is exactly what he implied/claimed, perhaps even said, in effect, and that is NOT misrepresenting his facts by any measure, so let me, and you, both be clear exactly what I am, or am not doing eh?

And for the record, LESS Firmware Updates, do NOT mean a GOOD thing. Come on, ask even yourself - how many Apple iPhone owners out there are there, who would dearly LOVE yet another update, to add another round of features, and as such, would not like to see these FAR MORE OFTEN.

LESS is NOT a GOOD thing. MORE, more often, more frequent, more quickly, is a far better thing, where Firmware fixes are concerned.

Unregistered wrote:He also said that almost every Nokia needs some sort of bug/software upgrade out of the box. This is true.

Totally untrue. Or didn't you even bother to READ my reply, citing examples of devices that did not have a SIGNIFICANT problem with early firmwares?

So unless you stop with the untruths, we are gonna get nowhere. But nevertheless, just to be clear, this is NOT true. I have owned a whole raft of Nokia devices that did not have major issues in early firmware.

Unregistered wrote:Name one recent (go back 5 years if you want) phones that were not hosed from the start?

Why? I already did exactly that in my original post. So if you couldn't read it THERE, why do I need to waste my time with you doing exactly the same thing again here. Just scroll back up, and read it PROPERLY this time.

Unregistered wrote:Not to mention design errors. Can anyone remember the E90 keyboard issues? How about the recent N97 scratching the lens issues? These type of things have not plagued the iPhone.

Mmm - my post was about SOFTWARE issues, and OMISSIONS - indeed the only real move away from that was mentioning the fixed battery of the iPhone.

Unregistered wrote:Again, no one said, not the poster, that problems were exclusive only to Nokia. You seemed to have intentionally misstated that point.

I misstated zero, unlike yourself - as it's clear for all to see that the poster did indeed SPECIFICALLY set about to highlight Nokia as being of very poor quality. This was his VERY INTENT, and I think he'd be upset if you were trying to imply any different.

Unregistered wrote:Everyone is under pressure to get to the market sooner so this is not an excuse for Nokia's shoddy work.

What shoddy work...? (work implying a HARDWARE/design aspect, not software one). My N86 is a marvel of workmanship. My N82 is solid as a rock. My E71 is a workmanship dream. My E90 is a powerhouse in a size that still belays it's prowess. My E51 is still going strong and reliable as anything, and simply feels great in the hand, even after 18 months of use by my brother, jumping over walls to arrest criminals.

Let's not kid any of ourselves here - Nokia may from time to time have some issues with certain aspects of some of their phones, but this by no sane stretch of the imagination, amounts to a whole-scale and fundamental reputation for "shoddy work". Nothing could be even further from the truth, and such sensational claims, with no substance in fact, quite the opposite in fact, just highlight your comments for what they are - exactly that, unsubstantiated, sensationalism.

Unregistered wrote:Pressure is equal to all and some seem to handle it better than others, and deliver a quality product from the start.

If the iPhone, with it's colour fading, overheating batteries, inability to run applications in the background, do true multitasking, or even bluetooth a simple family picture is the shining example of "handling it better than others" that you refer to, we'll stop there with that one, eh, for the sake of avoiding you undue embarrassment *lol*

Unregistered wrote:Your argument about Linux can be applied to Symbian as it has been around quite a while as well, so going by past, and present experience, it might be safe to say that the N900 will flawed in some way as well. Nokia has a proven track record of dropping the ball.

I never even mentioned Linux or the N900 - you are now referring to a DIFFERENT poster. But just to point out, that again, you refer to "Nokia having a proven track record of dropping the ball", when that is utter, unsubstantiated, claptrap, offered as sensationalism on your part, without any supporting factual data to go with it.

So I think I best simply ignore all that anyway, even though it's not even me that mentioned it.

Unregistered wrote:Here are the facts as I see them. There is no perfect phone.

True.

Unregistered wrote:No one size fits all.

True.

Unregistered wrote:The iPhone fits some,

True - those who want a great LOOKING device, that has little going for it hardware wise, and on a feature set is actually basic, and on a power user level, can't even background task, or multi-task.

Unregistered wrote:...while Symbian fits others.

Yup- those who want a SmartPhone that can actually do some REAL stuff.

Unregistered wrote:I happen to have both for the reasons I just stated and the fact that I can afford to buy any phone I want, and I like gadgets so I am hooked.

Yup - so you can use a great looking, but very restricted/basic phone, as a phone, music player, and a Symbian Nokia, if you require a SmartPhone that can do advanced stuff, etc.

Unregistered wrote:The second point is that the comparison between the iPhone and any other phone, even the N97 or N900 is moot as they are different types of devices.

Not moot at all, if you are in your next paragraph, then going to try and get away with extolling the virtues of the iPhone again, whilst having yet another stab at the Nokia/Symbian line. Keep it fair, and we will, but expect us to miss or overlook such a glaring and cheap and UNTRUE stab as your next paragraph, and no, we wont accept it's a moot issue at all.

If you want us to agree it's a moot issue, then keep it factual too.

Unregistered wrote:The iPhone is designed and targeted at a VERY specific market while the N97 and N900 seem to be sort of thrown at the wall and seeing what sticks, which is not necessarily bad.

Perhaps not bad, but also not true - again you just make these claims up "thrown at the wall to see what sticks", as you see fit. I mean come on, BEFORE the launch of the iPhone, do you really think Steve Jobs had so much as a CLUE what target market it would be adopted by (other than existing Mac fanboys I mean).

Unregistered wrote:Nokia has a proven track record of providing subpar products almost consistently.

Even if you repeat this made up claim a hundred times, it doesn't make it any more REAL you know. So repeating this well used, MADE UP, unsubstantiated claim, we'll simply ignore it for what it is, just as quickly as we did the first time you used this line.

Unregistered wrote:The first thing I and a few others did after we got our Nokia's was to go to the NSU. Why? Because we knew something would be wrong with it and we were hoping an upgrade would be coming.

And what do you know - most of the time, they ARE, at that. Now, imagine if Apple did this too with their iPhones - how happy would that make the entire iPhone Community, being able to regularly (and I mean regularly and frequently), update their phone to fix issues, AS WELL AS add new useful features?

And that being the case, I have to ask you, why ON EARTH are you COMPLAINING, about something that when you elect to apply it to Apple instead of Nokia, would then be a GOOD thing in your eyes?

Are you finally getting it yet about how untrue, biased, and non-factual, your points are?

You've just made a point in a negative way, when applied to Nokia, about something which, if you then apply it Apple, would suddenly become a GOOD thing.

Unregistered wrote:So yes, Nokia has a proven history of delivering sub par devices that need immediate attention from go.

Repeating again - Even if you repeat this made up claim a hundred times (that's a hundred and ONE now, using it again), it doesn't make it any more REAL you know. So repeating this well used, MADE UP, unsubstantiated claim, we'll simply ignore it for what it is, just as quickly as we did the first time you used this line, and the second time, third time etc

Unregistered wrote:I hope my arguments were better, but you completely misrepresented a few things.

On the contrary, I hope I demonstrated not just to you, but more importantly, to everyone else, that in point of fact, your arguments were no such thing, but in actual fact, untrue, made up, unsubstantiated sensationalism, simply repeated over and over again, and when applied to Apple all of a sudden instead of Nokia, suddenly somehow go from being Negative points, to POSITIVE ones.

Oh, as well as showing that I misrepresented, or misstated, absolutely nothing *lol*

But finally, let's all try and remember this, before he or others claim I am the Nokia brigade...

Just remember, I'm the very person that STARTED the rant in here about the TERRIBLE quality of the current N86 firmware.

So biased, me...?

Probably, but only in the sense that Nokias are my weapon of choice - I am NOT shy in complaining when the weapon doesn't fire properly, as that's EXACTLY what my first post was all about, let's not forget..

Hope that clarifies, and hope this thread gets back ON topic, in terms of it being a Review of the N86, and as such, the opportunity for us to flag up current issues with it.

rvirga wrote:Once upon a time, this site had a policy of not publishing rumours or leaked info. I think it would be wise to reinstate that policy.
How did you get this "scoop"? Either you got someone at Nokia fired (again), or, most likely, this is a "controlled leak" by which Nokia gets to delay a lot of potential Satio sales without having to officially promise anything.
If/when Nokia actually releases this fw, you can run your own tests and publish the results. But in the meanwhile, please don't waste my time with this.

It's clear from all the many other comments though rvirga, than MANY people DO want to know about this.

And as such, if you don't want your time wasted with this info, then may I humbly suggest that you simply look elsewhere.

No need to come here and berate the site owners for it though.

How could there be - as to many, its USEFUL info.

For example, despite indicating that the forthcoming Firmware introduces Face Detection, this in turn then allows me to repeat to Nokia and all watching this, the fact that the most important thing is a STABLE firmware fixing the major bugs.

And in turn, it seems like someone from Nokia has confirmed to say he has been reading it - if not in this thread itself, then over at the N86 Review Thread instead.

So posting this info was of IMMENSE use, however you look at it.

So again, if for some specific unusual reason, you do not find this information useful to you, or appealing to you, then I don't think telling the Site Editors not to post it is any sensible suggestion.

May I humbly suggest that in these circumstances, the best, and most appropriate action for you, would simply to be to ignore the info, if for some unusual reason, reading about it makes you angry.

Oh, and even using your OWN points - that of this being a delaying tactic for Nokia and nothing else.

Would you care to tell me how that's a BAD thing for the user anyway, especially as having shown her this, my sister is now minded to forget about getting the Sony Ericsson W995 8MP Cameraphone she was wanting to get, and instead hold off and perhaps now get an N86 (admittedly after having shown her mine too), but the point being that this info and news post, was USEFUL to her, in making that decision, for the very reason you DO list - it gives people an idea what is coming BEFORE it is here.

That's not automatically a BAD thing mate. The very ethos you mention, is the very thing that was USEFUL to my sister.

Unregistered wrote:@shadamehr,

My God, you sure do love to hear your self speak and bloviate.

I feel asleep after the first three words. Was all of that really necessary?

From the post immediately underneath mine, that says:

"Hello shadamehr and others.

We do read this and other forums, so please keep the comments coming, thanks.

Damian "

Then I think that answers your question better than anything I could ever elect to write, especially if, as I suspect, "Damian" happens to be representing Nokia in viewing this forum.

So instead of twisting on at others, whilst HIDING behind an "Unregistered" tag yourself (talk about double-standards), then why not use your keyboard time a bit more productively, and actually ADD something to the discussion, especially as it seems as if those behind the powers that be (Nokia, not the Site Admins) are actually READING this forum, and keen to hear what issues we do want to see fixed.

But like I said, all the answer I could ever want to make to your post, was answered for me a million times over, by the post underneath it.

Now, can we get this back on track with my post below...

..Reminder of N86 Firmware Issues:

The NokiaN86 , and all it's myriad significant bugs, that we want to see fixed, so that the wonderful HARDWARE of the device itself, can truly shine through.

• T9 Taught words, not being remembered by the dictionary.
• Battery Charge indicator not showing correctly after pulling off the charger etc while switching device on - it then shows the charge level as being at wherever the animation was whilst charging, even if full.
• Screen LOCKING in landscape orientation randomly, and not being able to correctly re-rotate it, if key-lock on with numeric key-code.
  - And worse to the above bug - this then meaning that the power button stops working, so the phone can't be switched off to fix it - a battery pull is needed.
• Normal Landscape photos sometimes, for no sensible reason, being auto rotated into Portrait, on occasions (for no good reason, as this is the complete opposite of what the accelerometer is even designed to do, which is rotate PORTRAIT intended photos correctly from the landscape aspect in the phone).
• Messaging application incredibly SLOW (text messaging, and Email program). Click Reply, to reply to a text message, and you can sit and time the duration it takes, before you can actually start entering letters in the text messaging editor.
• By the same token, click BACK to come out of the Text Messaging application, and you can wait a good while, before it takes you back to the menu grid.
• Terrible Free Internal C: memory - I am down to just 12.2MB, and that's after DECLINING a 12MB update to N-Gage. Nokia, this is caused by certain specific apps, such as maps, quick office, Email, etc, ONLY being allowed to save to C: Memory, and not the large E: Mass Storage. Very silly - please use or at least permiot a choice of E: for EVERY application, so that my C: never goes down.
• Captured Photos do NOT appear in the "Captured Photos" category, in the Gallery, if saved to E: Mass Storage - a bug.

There are probably a lot more, but Nokia, if you are reading, that's a summary of at least some of the issues we currently see with FW v11.043

Hope this helps, and I hope you can add them ALL to the Fix list, so that even if some are not in the next FW fix, they are in the queue for the one after etc.

Cheers Nokia/Damian.

Shadamehr - I think you need to take a drugs test mate after all your hard work tonight. What has inspired you and please can I have some? Please keep it up because I'm lovin' it.

Williamoni wrote:Shadamehr - I think you need to take a drugs test mate after all your hard work tonight. What has inspired you and please can I have some? Please keep it up because I'm lovin' it.

And I've not even had Red Bull tonight *lol*

But hey, if it means Nokia sees the issues, and we get a nice Firmware update or two to fix the many issues with the N86, I'll still be a happy man.

Oh, and I just had to reply to you, as your the first person, in all the replies I have waded through tonight, to actually post from a proper profile. So well done.

I was starting to get a bit, erm, split-personalitied, replying to all these many "Unregistered" persons, whoever they are *lol*

And anyway, to reply to you better mate, and make this my 100th ever post, then the real reason for all my effort tonight is this:

"I like work. It fascinates me. In fact, I can sit and look at it for hours".

Grins.

Congratulations on reaching your century. A good knock too, with barely a chance offered to the opposition.

So much to applaud - what a contrast to them pesky unregistered varmints!

@shadamehr,

Man do you love to pontificate. You jumped in the middle of a reply to clonmult and then claimed it as your own. How does your head fit through doors. Are you compensating for the lack of something with your oversized ego?

While some of the points you make are in some ways valid, your droning on and, on and, on and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on really gets boring and you quickly lose your audience.

Just because you have had a lot of phones does not make you an expert. I breath quite a bit of air daily but that does not make me an expert on oxygen. Taking the hardware issues out of the equation, the poster (unregistered) has valid claims that Nokia phones are bug laden from the start which is not to say that the iPhone does not have its share of problems, but on average it would seem that Nokia generally has more. I could do a run down and refute each of your iPhone claims as spurious but why bother, you know everything already.

Arjun Parsi wrote:When is the new firmware Expected??

It's got to be close as someone in this thread upgraded via the NSS. Fingers crossed.

shadamehr wrote:..Reminder of N86 Firmware Issues:

• Captured Photos do NOT appear in the "Captured Photos" category, in the Gallery, if saved to E: Mass Storage - a bug.

Hi, I'd like to clarify this one. Are you saying a freshly taken image taken with the N86 8MP does not show up in captured?

Or are you saying images which may have been taken at some previous date do not show up?

If the former, this is not common. The captured folder only shows images captured with the device. I believe a hard reset will cause this to be cleared and then those images will then show up in 'all'

br

Unregistered wrote:@shadamehr,

Man do you love to pontificate. You jumped in the middle of a reply to clonmult and then claimed it as your own. How does your head fit through doors. Are you compensating for the lack of something with your oversized ego?

I think you'll find that if you re-read the thread, it was originally MY post, that saw an Unregistered user see fit to introduce the virtues of the iPhone, and the alleged "massive issues with Nokia".

Otherwise, how could I even post REPLYING to those claims if most were not also aimed at me? And the only thing I claim as my own, are whatever words I have responded with, thank you very much, nothing else.

If the huge amount of posts by "Unregistered" users is making things too confusing for you to see the flow of the debate, then you have my sympathy. But that's the inherent problem with so many people simply posting as "Unregistered", so you might want to do something about that yourself too, instead of making a situation that has already confused you, even worse by posting as "Unregistered" too.

But I don't think anyone other than yourself has any doubts as to where "I" fit into the debate, if they read further back.

Unregistered wrote:While some of the points you make are in some ways valid, your droning on and, on (snip) really gets boring and you quickly lose your audience.

That's funny, as there seems to be plenty applauding what I say, but far more importantly, even the intended powers that be are reading those threads that matter (and at the end of the day, that's ALL that really matters to me - that those who need to see, do see it)

Unregistered wrote:Just because you have had a lot of phones does not make you an expert. I breath quite a bit of air daily but that does not make me an expert on oxygen.

I could offer a hundred responses to that, but I'll simply go with the obvious and sensible one. That it's a ridiculously poor, and I mean ridiculously poor, analogy. In fact I can't even see it as an analogy. As how does doing something naturally, automatically, without thinking about it, and on even a SUB-CONSCIOUS level, equate to heavily USING, testing, experimenting, learning, and wanting to fully understand something else?

We breath air..? Course we do. Without conscious thought, effort, or thinking about it.

Hey, despite, being a Nokia Accredited "Test Pilot", as well as Certified Windows Mobile Specialist, and Windows Mobile Small Business Advisor, even that means nothing - they are just titles, so me being all those things too doesn't mean I am an expert.

But using my phones extensively, heavily, testing every feature, and comparing, and having an extensive range, constantly changing...? Those are the things that dictate whether someone knows about phones or not.

Indeed, when you have a friend that is a Manager of the biggest UK operator-independent Mobile Phone brand, and yet have him constantly ring you up for advice or issues about phones, even though I have no background in the Industry, and he is a Manager, that's usually a sign that people rate you as having extensive knowledge about phones.

Unfortunately, whilst that is merely just reporting the facts, it's also going to give you full reign to bring up the big-headed claim again sadly.

So let me just say, I don't claim anything as such, Other than simply having a long line of phones to my name, many at the same time, and when I have them, I hammer them.

The audience can draw their own conclusions from that, that's all I wish to offer.

Unregistered wrote:Taking the hardware issues out of the equation, the poster (unregistered) has valid claims that Nokia phones are bug laden from the start

And that, again, is exactly what I so heavily disputed in the last post. WHERE is the evidence to support this? As I gave evidence, citing my last, let me count in my head here, my last SIX Symbian Nokia phones, and flagging up how they did not have any major firmware issues even on early version firmwares.

So I offer evidence. When you do the same, rather than unsubstantiated facts, maybe then we'll talk business.

But just like I said to the last "unregistered" who kept repeating that line - just saying it over and over again, doesn't make it any more true without supporting evidence. So you saying it now on his behalf, doesn't make it any more automatically true either.

And let's be honest, if you want to talk about brands with Buggy Firmware early on, I shouldn't really bring up my brother's new Sony Ericsson 8MP shooter phone, my old K800's and K810i's, or even get started on the Samsung line, well documented on here on the review page for it, about it's current firmware issues.

So just to be clear, that's neither an all-encompassing response from me, nor a totally scientific answer, rest assured. But it does give a genuine, real-life based indication as to how Nokia is certainly no worse than other brands, which IS what the OP said, and leads nicely on to your next point below...

Unregistered wrote:which is not to say that the iPhone does not have its share of problems,

But whilst that might be your more sensible view, that's NOT what the OP claimed though now is it, and it's the OP I responded to to refute this point remember, not yourself. The OP DOES claim the iPhone really is the Jesus phone, near perfect in every way. That's the issue you see. At least you are more sensible here with your response. But that's NOT the view the OP took about it.

Unregistered wrote:but on average it would seem that Nokia generally has more.

A view you are entitled to hold yourself, but NOT one I share, nor do many others, and not supported by the whole list of issues or failings I did ensure I included about the iPhone, to support the debate.

Unregistered wrote:I could do a run down and refute each of your iPhone claims as spurious but why bother, you know everything already.

No need to claim they are spurious, just answer in YOUR OWN words, opinion and mind, without anyone twisting things, does the iPhone, or does it not:

• Have a battery that cannot be changed by the user, and thus easily swapped out with another if running low?
• As a result, does this or does it not, mean that over time, the battery life of the phone will reduce, and their is nothing the user can do about it?
• When the battery finally has gone, does this or does this not, mean that the user will have to arrange an expensive replacement, that will not only cost, but be time consuming, and leave them without their phone for a time period as a result?
• Is it or is it not true that a user cannot quickly an easily Bluetooth a file or document to another person? ( a feature useful even for professionals, not just school-kids, where pdf's, zips etc are concerned).
• Is it or is it not true, that for a lot of people, the heating of the battery, or whatever else the reason is then, has caused the white iPhones for some users to discolour terribly (clue, Apple have acknowledged this in a round about way, should you wish not to)
• Is it or is it not true, that there have beens reports of overheating issues for SOME users (again, which Apple have saw fit to at least feel the need to "investigate" all these reports).

So forgive me, but as that's basically what I said up above, if you feel they are spurious, and can easily be refuted, then by all means do so..

...Simply go through the list there I have just made, and tell us if they are True, or Untrue. Then we will see who is making up spurious, false claims. But by all means, as you say, why bother, as I know everything (according to you).

Perhaps you would like next week's Lottery Numbers from me in advance then...?

Come on, let's not turn this into yet another Apple iPhone/Symbian Nokia contest.

As I recall, the iPhone only came into the debate when ANOTHER user highlighted this handset, as all that is good in the world, and how everyone should use one, instead of a Nokia. And I responded, not to cause controversy, but merely to highlight the long list of things the iPhone omits, that I need to do the things I do, like Blogging, Media Sharing etc etc.

That's all.

So let's not go round in circles - let me say again in fairness, the UI on the iPhone is indeed superb, and it's probably the best music player there is. So for those that only need certain things from a phone, it can be a good option. But for others, there is way too much omitted.

So it's simply a matter of TASTE, and CHOICE.

Let's get this back on track, in terms of it being about the N86, and it's firmware etc, thanks mate.

DamianDinning wrote:Hi, I'd like to clarify this one. Are you saying a freshly taken image taken with the N86 8MP does not show up in captured?

Or are you saying images which may have been taken at some previous date do not show up?

If the former, this is not common. The captured folder only shows images captured with the device. I believe a hard reset will cause this to be cleared and then those images will then show up in 'all'

br

Damian,

As I 'understood it', as it looks to be making a liar out of me now, but for some photos, yes, this appeared to be the issue.

If you took a photo, then went into the Gallery > Images > Captured, sometimes they weren't there, but WERE to be found in "All".

This only applies/applied if the saving location was set to E: Mass Memory. It did not present an issue when saved to either C:, or to an actual Memory Card.

Alas, looking now though, all my images ARE there.

However, this includes some of my mate Gareth, who I work with, taken the evening I got my phone, messing about at work.

And when I was originally looking, these images were NOT shown in "Captured" as I recall, even though earlier ones taken on the afternoon I got my phone, WERE.

But to be fair, it was another user that flagged this one up, not myself, as I only noticed an issue where sometimes, captured photos didn't seem to be appearing in the right place.

It was this other user, who seemed to know what he meant, that flagged it up as being only an issue if E: is used as the storage location.

I will try and search and see if I can find who it was that raised this one.
-

I also have a lovely LANDSCAPE (the way it was originally taken that is, on line with the horizon) photo, of a Google Street View car near to me, in the glorious sunshine.

Only problem is, it's auto-rotated into PORTRAIT format.

I didn't even know that was POSSIBLE, let alone desirable. *lol*

And I woke up again this morning, with my phone switched off (by design/intention), with it on the proper power mains charger, and again, despite being on charge all night, the battery indicator was stopped - at about 20% full.

I simply took the phone off the charger, waited 'til the screen had cleared, switched it on, and then it indicated a FULL battery then.

But it seems now, to do this nearly every time I charge my phone on the mains charger, with the phone switched off - shows only a 20% static indicator, the next morning.

Thanks for all your interest in this thread Damian, and I hope the list was still useful for you for ongoing fixes.

If you need anything else, just yell, or even PM me.

shadamehr wrote:

• Have a battery that cannot be changed by the user, and thus easily swapped out with another if running low?
• As a result, does this or does it not, mean that over time, the battery life of the phone will reduce, and their is nothing the user can do about it?
• When the battery finally has gone, does this or does this not, mean that the user will have to arrange an expensive replacement, that will not only cost, but be time consuming, and leave them without their phone for a time period as a result?
• Is it or is it not true that a user cannot quickly an easily Bluetooth a file or document to another person? ( a feature useful even for professionals, not just school-kids, where pdf's, zips etc are concerned).
• Is it or is it not true, that for a lot of people, the heating of the battery, or whatever else the reason is then, has caused the white iPhones for some users to discolour terribly (clue, Apple have acknowledged this in a round about way, should you wish not to)
• Is it or is it not true, that there have beens reports of overheating issues for SOME users (again, which Apple have saw fit to at least feel the need to "investigate" all these reports).

Iwill take quick stab:

1. Since day one it was known that the battery was not user replaceble but what does this have to do with software. When hardware was mentioned in regards to the E90, you deflected that this is about the N86's software. Oh well....
2. Correct, battery life deminishes over time. Circle of life and all that. A user however does have the option to send the phone in for a new battery at a cost. Some places will give a loaner phone, but this is not in every situation. So you get half a point but your initial argument has merit.
3. There are applications to do this (sending files via BT). One thing that you might agree with is that as far as I am concerned the iPhone is not a "smartphone" in the sense that you and I think. It is a great media phone, which in terms of what it does, it is hardly equaled, but in terms of what it does.
4. The heating/discoloration issue, the last I read about it, was caused by putting it in a case of some sort. The color from the case rubbed off and discolored the white iPhones. There was a YouTube going around I think but for me, I have a black iPhone, I have not experienced a heating issue. There was the issue with the exploding iPhones as well but I think this was resolved as well without actually implicating Apple.

And I responded, not to cause controversy, but merely to highlight the long list of things the iPhone omits, that I need to do the things I do, like Blogging, Media Sharing etc etc.

Uhhh... The iPhone does this dude.... Not sure why you think it doesn't but okay..

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Supposedly the new firmware for the N86 is cooking as we speak. My friends at Nokia are running it and their N86's look pretty fast. I begged and pleaded but they will not upgrade mine, so I am in the same boat as everyone else here. Oh did I not mention, I have a bunch of Nokia's as well as an iPhone. In fact, because the firmware on the N97 is so screwed up, I was forced to get an iPhone because I use a Mac. The developers that create the 3rd party apps have given up on creating them until Nokia fixes the firmware. I think it would be a far assumption to say that the N97 came from the factory broken.

You might want to head over to: www.nokia.co.uk/discussions to read about how utter hosed the N97 "CURRENTLY" is. Hopefully the N900 will not suffer the same fate.

Just saw your reply to the photo thing. There is also, at least for me, a problem with charging via USB. Sometimes, she's a work, or she's a no work. If I go int Connectivity and switch the connection type, it will then start to charge via USB. The N97 is also plauged with this problem.

**Side bar** Is Damian an actual Nokia employee? I was under the impression that they are not allowed to discuss ANYTHING outside of official channels. That's what they say on the Nokia Forums Site.

sapporobaby wrote:Iwill take quick stab:

**Side bar** Is Damian an actual Nokia employee? I was under the impression that they are not allowed to discuss ANYTHING outside of official channels. That's what they say on the Nokia Forums Site.

Yes I am. I was responsible for the concepting phase of N82 and N86 8MP among others and many imaging focused projects within Nokia. You may have seen some interviews/material I created on Nokia Conversations too. I am happy to be here when I have time and my employer is happy with this also 😊

...I'm still stuck on 10.086 here in Hong Kong! Nokia seem to have forgotten about updates for my product code 😞

sapporobaby wrote:Iwill take quick stab:

1. Since day one it was known that the battery was not user replaceble but what does this have to do with software. When hardware was mentioned in regards to the E90, you deflected that this is about the N86's software. Oh well....

No mate - all you said in your original post, was that you could REFUTE the claims I made earlier about the iPhone. You didn't say "as long as you don't mention the hardware side of it". You simply said you could refute my earlier claims.

And as those were the claims I made earlier, I merely re-invited you to refute them.

sapporobaby wrote:2. Correct, battery life deminishes over time. Circle of life and all that. A user however does have the option to send the phone in for a new battery at a cost. Some places will give a loaner phone, but this is not in every situation. So you get half a point but your initial argument has merit.

It's a full point, or none at all, as I am either telling the truth, or lying. *lol*

sapporobaby wrote:3. There are applications to do this (sending files via BT). One thing that you might agree with is that as far as I am concerned the iPhone is not a "smartphone" in the sense that you and I think. It is a great media phone, which in terms of what it does, it is hardly equaled, but in terms of what it does.

I was wholly unaware this can be done, I readily attest. And indeed, to help my poor friend out who is devastated about this, I would be grateful if you could give me some pointers as to what he needs. Because as far as I was aware, this is simply physically not possible, as the iPhone does not at all support the necessary Bluetooth Protocol for easy quick media sharing.

Or did you only mean jail-breaked phones, as if so, this is no use or answer for him alas.

And for your other points, I agree that the iPhone is indeed NOT a SmartPhone - but that alone should drive all owners mad, as in a real sense, it EASILY could be, if Apple allowed true multi-tasking and background apps - there is not much hardware limitation to this, so that's another reason I won't ever own one - I would constantly feel furious that I hold in my hand something that COULD be a powerhouse perhaps, were it not for a simple SOFTWARE limitation etc - I would literally feel utterly cheated owning it, knowing what it COULD potentially do.

But I do NOT agree it is a great MEDIA phone, as to me, media means above all else, on a personal level, photos, and video.

And as the photos are poor (when used against a decent Carl Zeiss 5 or 8 MP as the comparator, as you describe the iPhone as a good media phone), and as Video was only really added at the last update to the iPhone, and despite it's inbuilt movie editor, the actual base spec, resolution etc, is not that great, then I cannot include video either.

Ney - it's a great MUSIC phone, is all it is, which is exactly what I have happily admitted all along.

sapporobaby wrote:4. The heating/discoloration issue, the last I read about it, was caused by putting it in a case of some sort. The color from the case rubbed off and discolored the white iPhones. There was a YouTube going around I think but for me, I have a black iPhone, I have not experienced a heating issue. There was the issue with the exploding iPhones as well but I think this was resolved as well without actually implicating Apple.

Not my understanding of it, but I don't own one. Certainly all the reports I saw of it, and those that were being considered for possible Class Actions, never related to anything about any cases etc.

sapporobaby wrote:(In relation to claiming that I use my phone for Media Sharing, Blogging etc) Uhhh... The iPhone does this dude.... Not sure why you think it doesn't but okay..

You'd have to quantify "does" before you can claim that.

• Basic poor camera on iPhone v 8MP Variable Aperture Lens on N86
• No BT File Sharing on iPhone v Instant easy sharing on N86
  (have noted your comments about a possible third party app though)
• No Background Apps on iPhone v Easy Background Apps running on N86 for Web Sharing online automatically (without the need for third party apps anyway on the N86 etc)
• No inbuilt Geotagging of photos on iPhone v Automatic Geo-tagging on N86
• MMS only possible since last update v MMS since MMS was first invented all those years back.
• Inability as already stated, to swap out a dying battery on iPhone v Opportunity to do constant battery swaps when running low on N86
  (This, above all others, INSTANTLY rules out my ability to use the iPhone as a "Media and Blogging" device, as in the Highlands of Scotland, or the Lake District etc, charging near a waterfall, is a bit problematic etc (no need to introduce solar chargers etc, that's getting off track - that can be applied to ANY device of any sort, but it's missing the entire point if you try and mention such things mate)

So the problem here, clearly, is our differing interpretations of "does".

And as the person who needs to "do" those things, the iPhone version of "does all that" is nowhere near close enough, to allow me to make an iPhone my Imaging and Media Sharing centric device.

But to be fair, come on, even the Apple Fanboys would not argue that toss mate, so I'm unsure why you do.

Being realistic, even with the extensive list of Apps in the iPhone Store, due to the none-multitasking/background apps issue of the iPhone, and the fixed, single, none-swappable battery, it's never gonna be an Imaging and Media Sharing Powerhouse, nor in fairness, do people claim it to be.

So no, it DOESN'T do all that - not to a proper acceptable level.

sapporobaby wrote:Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Supposedly the new firmware for the N86 is cooking as we speak. My friends at Nokia are running it and their N86's look pretty fast. I begged and pleaded but they will not upgrade mine, so I am in the same boat as everyone else here. Oh did I not mention, I have a bunch of Nokia's as well as an iPhone. In fact, because the firmware on the N97 is so screwed up, I was forced to get an iPhone because I use a Mac. The developers that create the 3rd party apps have given up on creating them until Nokia fixes the firmware. I think it would be a far assumption to say that the N97 came from the factory broken.

My turn to both agree with you here, and thank you for the heads up on the impending firmware too.

sapporobaby wrote:You might want to head over to: www.nokia.co.uk/discussions to read about how utter hosed the N97 "CURRENTLY" is. Hopefully the N900 will not suffer the same fate.

I could have HAD an N97 for free on the same upgrade that saw me get the N86. It's current well documented state, is exactly what saw me elect for the N86 instead, so you are only too right, and I have no qualms saying it.

What I must also say though, is that the state of the N97, and indeed the N86 as it turns out, does still NOT equate to the all encompassing, unequivocal statements both you and the OP made, about how "EVERYTHING Nokia do are terrible from the off" or however you both worded it.

And far more importantly, and this one is important - specifically because of how BAD the N97 is, and moreover, how well documented this is, is the very reason I keep going on and on and on about the N86.

Because in real and simple truthful terms, if we don;t, then Nokia are going to overlook it, in their desire to sort out the N97, the supposed Flagship device.

So hence why I feel it so important to highlight and remind/flag up the issues with the N86 at every opportunity.

Specifically because of how bad the N97 is, and if we don;t remind them about the N86, it will get overlooked in the quest to fix the n97. Hope that makes sense mate.

sapporobaby wrote:Just saw your reply to the photo thing. There is also, at least for me, a problem with charging via USB. Sometimes, she's a work, or she's a no work. If I go int Connectivity and switch the connection type, it will then start to charge via USB. The N97 is also plauged with this problem.

Mmm - so sounds like an early issue (I happily accept your view), with this new style of charging that Nokia have now moved to (to thankfully conform to the universal standard for all phones in years to come).

Hopefully this is software based only though, if it can be triggered to restart with a software call like you have done though, so here's hoping this gets fixed too.

sapporobaby wrote:**Side bar** Is Damian an actual Nokia employee? I was under the impression that they are not allowed to discuss ANYTHING outside of official channels. That's what they say on the Nokia Forums Site.

At no point whatsoever has he CLAIMED this, but reading between the lines, this is the implication, and I am minded to think it's a genuine one at that.

But if not from Nokia, then more likely from Nokia's UK Service and Support Provider, near Ipswich or wherever, but if so, in real terms, it's now one and the same, as Nokia UK do not even actually have an in-house support service now I don't think.

So I think this guy is the best we are going to get, and grateful I am to see him here reading up on the issues.

Here's hoping though mate.

DamianDinning wrote:Yes I am. I was responsible for the concepting phase of N82 and N86 8MP among others and many imaging focused projects within Nokia. You may have seen some interviews/material I created on Nokia Conversations too. I am happy to be here when I have time and my employer is happy with this also 😊

Not as happy as WE are to have you here though Damian mate.

*lol*

And thanks too.

Tell your employers, that the Software side of the N86 is at least as bad, if not worse than the N97.

BUT, that the Hardware side of it, is amazing, and the software side can easily be fixed, improved, and matured.

So plenty for us all to be HAPPY about, I'd say.

Very much so.

Especially with you here, reading up on the potential bugs etc.

Thanks indeed mate.

DamianDinning wrote:Yes I am. I was responsible for the concepting phase of N82 and N86 8MP among others and many imaging focused projects within Nokia. You may have seen some interviews/material I created on Nokia Conversations too. I am happy to be here when I have time and my employer is happy with this also 😊

SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUWEET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you mind popping in over at the Nokia forums from time to time? It would be great, not to mention helpful and informative to have someone from the "Company" (not CIA) come and talk to the disgruntled users. It would take quite a bit of pressure off the Nokia faithful (me included) that go forth and carry the Nokia banner in the face of unhappy users. 😊

sapporobaby wrote:SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUWEET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you mind popping in over at the Nokia forums from time to time? It would be great, not to mention helpful and informative to have someone from the "Company" (not CIA) come and talk to the disgruntled users. It would take quite a bit of pressure off the Nokia faithful (me included) that go forth and carry the Nokia banner in the face of unhappy users. 😊

I do have a day job 😉 so I can only view/comment from time to time.

DamianDinning wrote:Yes I am. I was responsible for the concepting phase of N82 and N86 8MP among others and many imaging focused projects within Nokia. You may have seen some interviews/material I created on Nokia Conversations too. I am happy to be here when I have time and my employer is happy with this also 😊

Hi DamianDinning.

First of all thanks for logging onto AAS and showing your presence, very much appreciated.

I just have one question for you which i think every N86 owner wants to ask - can you give us a rough estimate as to when we will be able to recieve the new FW (via NSU). Will it be before the end of this month? Sometime in October? I know that the N97 is receiving a major FW update in October so will the N86's update coincide with that?

I would appreciate any information you can give us. Many thanks.

shadamehr wrote:No mate......

I will answer your statements in bullet points and delete the original quote so that it does not take too much space. I will do it sequentially.

1. From a purly pedantic point of view, you are correct, there are either lies or truths with no gray, however it is my opinion that your answer lay somewhere in the middle.

2. There are apps (I do not jailbreak my iPhone. For me, I want a native app rather than something someone hacked on my phone) that allow file and vcard transfers. Have your friend look in the App Store, but as I reiterate, the fact that it is not a native function kills the "smartphone" moniker for me. The iPhone is a media phone, or an iPod that makes calls. Either title fits. It does not drive me mad because I recognize the phone for what it is and what it does and these functions meet my needs perfectly. I also do not think it is a biz phone. Far from it. Simply putting Exchange for MS on a phone does not make it a biz phone. American media suck.... 😊 By the way, the iPhone can fully multi-task when jailbroken, but it does actually multi-task for Apple only applications. They are opening up multi-tasking on a few non-Apple apps. Time will tell. On a side note, for me, I realize that I do not multi-task as much as I thought. I listen to music, while surfing, checking email, writing notes, and a few other things. In fact, and if you are interested, I can check and see how much the iPhone does multi-task. You have piqued my curiosity.

3. We will have to agree to disagree about the great media device as this is more likely subjective. Having more megapixels does not a good photo make. Look at the 8 mp camera on the N86. It is hampered by its software. The images might be clear but they are purple-ish and artifacted (I know it is not a real word). An update should fix this. All together now: cross your fingers. I will concede however that when fixed the N86 will easily best the iPhone. In fact, I used my N86 in NY when I did not feel like carrying my Nikon D300 (we can agree that this is a real camera right? 😊 ) and simply adjusted the images on my computer.

4. The iPhone geotags images. It is in the EXIF data.

5. Battery issue we mentioned but we both know the solution. I am acutally on the fence with this as I carried a Nokia battery charger with me while out and about in NY and a battery pack for the iPhone. So here they are even. Only when the battery charging life is ended does your point take on a new relevancy.

6. Personally I would put you in the uber-power user category. Many of the issues that you mentioned with the iPhone are not a bother to most people. For example, there is a ton of free blogging software for the iPhone, a ton of photo and media sharing software as well as native applications for access various photos sites, Flickr, Facebook, etc.... So I am not sure what more you would want here. The image quality of the iPhone for videos and photos of coures it not up to the standards of say a Carl Zeiss but then again do you really think that Apple could not have added this to the phone? It is only hardware and Apple is very good at hardware. My guess, is that they did focus testing and found that it was not needed by the average person.

I did not go into the N97 stuff because we both made the same decision. I had an N97 and took it back for the N86. 😊 We have more in common than it appears.

Unregistered wrote:Hi DamianDinning.

First of all thanks for logging onto AAS and showing your presence, very much appreciated.

I just have one question for you which i think every N86 owner wants to ask - can you give us a rough estimate as to when we will be able to recieve the new FW (via NSU). Will it be before the end of this month? Sometime in October? I know that the N97 is receiving a major FW update in October so will the N86's update coincide with that?

N97 update has nothing to do with the release of N86 FW. We are hoping early October but in testing phase anything can happen. Actual time will then vary according to variant, some come faster than others.

sapporobaby wrote:I will answer your statements in bullet points and delete the original quote so that it does not take too much space. I will do it sequentially.

1. From a purly pedantic point of view, you are correct, there are either lies or truths with no gray, however it is my opinion that your answer lay somewhere in the middle.

Apologies, I offered that one entirely light-heartedly, to improve the mood, and never made it clear enough. But that one was a laugh with you, not at you, for sure.

sapporobaby wrote:2. There are apps (I do not jailbreak my iPhone. For me, I want a native app rather than something someone hacked on my phone) that allow file and vcard transfers. Have your friend look in the App Store, but as I reiterate, the fact that it is not a native function kills the "smartphone" moniker for me. The iPhone is a media phone, or an iPod that makes calls. Either title fits. It does not drive me mad because I recognize the phone for what it is and what it does and these functions meet my needs perfectly. I also do not think it is a biz phone. Far from it. Simply putting Exchange for MS on a phone does not make it a biz phone. American media suck.... 😊 By the way, the iPhone can fully multi-task when jailbroken, but it does actually multi-task for Apple only applications. They are opening up multi-tasking on a few non-Apple apps. Time will tell. On a side note, for me, I realize that I do not multi-task as much as I thought. I listen to music, while surfing, checking email, writing notes, and a few other things. In fact, and if you are interested, I can check and see how much the iPhone does multi-task. You have piqued my curiosity.

Thanks for the additional info, I will give him some pointers. And the rest is interesting too.

sapporobaby wrote:3. We will have to agree to disagree about the great media device as this is more likely subjective. Having more megapixels does not a good photo make. Look at the 8 mp camera on the N86. It is hampered by its software. The images might be clear but they are purple-ish and artifacted (I know it is not a real word). An update should fix this. All together now: cross your fingers. I will concede however that when fixed the N86 will easily best the iPhone. In fact, I used my N86 in NY when I did not feel like carrying my Nikon D300 (we can agree that this is a real camera right? 😊 ) and simply adjusted the images on my computer.

More Megapixels, NEVER did a better picture make automatically - hence why my 6MP Fuji F31fd is still generally agreed by professional camera users as one of the best Fuji ever made. Especially as it has a larger sensor, which DOES a better picture help to make.

But the Variable aperture lens, and the larger sensor inside the N86, added to the higher quality (not just a moniker) Carl Zeiss optics, again DO for a better picture help to make.

Hence like you say, why a Firmware update can make things even better on the N86 (though I've not seen any real issues anyway so far, to be fair, and you can guess how much I take photos).

On the Mp argument though, and as much as I agree with you and Steve Litchfield here - one thing greater Mp's CAN help with though, is to take a photo larger than is needed, featuring possible noise etc, and then using Paint Shop Pro, or Photoshop, do a resample down to the size you DO need, and in the process, without doing anything else, instantly removing a multitude of sins - a simple resample down then re-sharpen filter, can make nearly EVERY photo look even better - so having the greater MegaPixels to do this in the first place, IS of use.

So that's worth remembering, even if for you, like me, the Mp debate is not everything.

Oh, and of course, where my 6MP falls down, where my 12MP Fuji shines - they both have the same optical zoom.

But with the 12MP camera, I can zoom to the max (true optical zoom that is), and then CROP the middle element out, the bit I need, still leaving an image of 2048x1536 which then would appear even CLOSER.

With the 6MP camera, at max zoom, I have nothing left to crop out, if wanting to remain at 2048x1536, as that's what I already have.

So the larger the Mp, the more scope for closer images WITHOUT actual Digital (and thus poor) zoom.

But setting all this aside, the in house optics, and 3.2 Mp single LED flash camera of the iPhone will NEVER be remotely suited for my needs, and is not great for full page photos either.

sapporobaby wrote:4. The iPhone geotags images. It is in the EXIF data.

Thanks - wasn't aware. But does it do this seamlessly, or does it need a background app? Either way, thanks for the info.

sapporobaby wrote:5. Battery issue we mentioned but we both know the solution. I am acutally on the fence with this as I carried a Nokia battery charger with me while out and about in NY and a battery pack for the iPhone. So here they are even. Only when the battery charging life is ended does your point take on a new relevancy.

No, no, no - you entirely miss my point here, and it invalidates what you say there mate.

My point is not about a spare charger. It's about a spare already charged BATTERY.

I don't need to lug chargers round with me (they'd be no use in the middle of the Scottish Highlands anyhow).

With a Nokia, I can simply take a spare BATTERY with me - two even, given how cheap they are from Independent dealers..

So I wasn't on about lugging around charging solutions, I was on about the incredibly easy fact that I can simply swap batteries.

sapporobaby wrote:6. Personally I would put you in the uber-power user category. Many of the issues that you mentioned with the iPhone are not a bother to most people. For example, there is a ton of free blogging software for the iPhone, a ton of photo and media sharing software as well as native applications for access various photos sites, Flickr, Facebook, etc.... So I am not sure what more you would want here. The image quality of the iPhone for videos and photos of coures it not up to the standards of say a Carl Zeiss but then again do you really think that Apple could not have added this to the phone? It is only hardware and Apple is very good at hardware. My guess, is that they did focus testing and found that it was not needed by the average person.

Well, I'd need the true decent camera lens I mentioned earlier for start with, but true Multi-tasking would also be a requisite.

I don't mind the rest of your points though, for sure.

sapporobaby wrote:I did not go into the N97 stuff because we both made the same decision. I had an N97 and took it back for the N86. 😊 We have more in common than it appears.

I tend to concur *lol*

sapporobaby wrote:

Having more megapixels does not a good photo make. Look at the 8 mp camera on the N86. It is hampered by its software. The images might be clear but they are purple-ish and artifacted (I know it is not a real word). An update should fix this. All together now: cross your fingers. I will concede however that when fixed the N86 will easily best the iPhone.

You may want to check these out:

They are taken with a development version of the upcoming SW:

http://share.ovi.com/album/Dinning.NokiaN868MP

DamianDinning wrote:You may want to check these out:

They are taken with a development version of the upcoming SW:

http://share.ovi.com/album/Dinning.NokiaN868MP

Very impressive! Very impressive indeed Damian.

Really hope the FW is released early October and with it being v20 i imagine it will be a rather large file and fix a lot of bugs and problems the phone currently has, as well as improving the quality of the photos and let's not forget the new Face Recognition!

When you have any more news on the new FW update please be kind enough to let us know when it's ready.